Cafe Libri discussion

For discussions concerning Between Friends by Debbie Macomber (416 pages).

yay got my copy already...had it in a lot of books that i got from a woman...im excited i didnt have to buy anything for this book

I got into it last night and just couldn't stop. The main characters were born 1 year after me so it's really like time travel for me to read it. Plus I Love, Love, Love short chapters/letters/journal entries, etc. Makes it so easy to pick up and just read for a short spell..except my short spell turned into hours last night...I think it was 2 am:) Hope you enjoy it. Parts of it might stimulate some rather heated religion discussions in the Yahoo group...hope everyone keeps their cool:)

yeah i would have to agree with you nannie about the short chapters letters etc. it doesnt feel like you are reading forever...I like when short spells turn into long hours...also i read good books everywhere i make other people drive so i can read lol...well hope everything keeps a level head and have an open mind even if we dont all agree

I've noticed your absence and missed your post. Glad you will have more time now, even if you don't read what the group is reading. Have a great summer.

This sounds like a good one based on the comments thus far! You all are getting me excited about it.

What are your concerns with the religious topics, Nannie? Want to give me a head's up, so that I can prepare?

Also, I echo Nannie's comment about your absence, Aerin. You posts are always so much fun to read!

Finally...I need to do a better job with keeping up on the news feed on Facebook. I rarely respond to people's posts on their walls...I just have too many friends! :-P

OMG i started the book early and all i can say is fantastic book loved it and couldnt put it down

I'm going to start reading it right now... just another one on my pile! Thx Donna

I'm enjoying the story. The love of two friends, I have a friend like them. The tragedy of the way life can be predictable and how we can unknowingly follow in our parents footsteps. The story is suspenseful and I can't wait to see how it ends.

I was reluctant at first to read this, thought it was a chick lit book, but it is so much more! A must read for close friends!
Donna

Amanda wrote: "OMG i started the book early and all i can say is fantastic book loved it and couldnt put it down"I can't put it down either. Thanks and OMG! Donna

Adri, as to the religious topics in this book, just the feelings expressed by one of the characters...I found the comments and thoughts expressed to be valid and good for the story line (one character does not accept the compliance with the church doctrine that the other character finds helpful and comforting). But some might find the criticisms hard to accept. Frankly it's been a few weeks since I read the book so I can't be very specific due to my short term memory weakness:) Nothing earth shaking, really, but if taken out of context, some might jump to the wrong conclusions. Then again, maybe no one will even comment. We'll see:)

Considering the story is based in the 50's A LOT of things were different then than what we know and feel about certain things now. Especially the religious aspect of what the church thinks vs what a women feels is the right thing to do in her situation because we all know everyone and situation is different. Sometimes it is hard to accept criticism that we dont believe is the right choice just because one might think its the right choice. I think its amazing how two friends can be so different. My best friend and I are the same way complete opposites but like any relationship sometimes opposites attract each other haha. I know i have learned a lot my being her friend what to do and not to do and how do i want my life to be and see how much she is struggling and i dont want that for myself.

I absolutely loved this book does anyone else have any other recommendations that I would like.

Nannie wrote: "Adri, as to the religious topics in this book, just the feelings expressed by one of the characters...I found the comments and thoughts expressed to be valid and good for the story line (one charac..."

Thanks, Nannie and Amanda, for clarifying the religious aspects about the book. Not sure how many people are reading it in Yahoo Cafe Libri, so I am not sure there will be much debate or fighting over it. Plus, I find that the members of Cafe Libri are generally liberal, or at least understanding when discussing books. We'll see how the discussions go in all the versions of Cafe Libri!

BTW: Amanda, I posted some erotic literature suggestions in the E. L. James thread (http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...). You are welcome to check those out if you want more erotic literature reading, lol.

I'm still finishing Red Riding Hood as my fun book, and I have class books to finish. I don't imagine I will be reading Between Friends. Glad that members are enjoying it thus far, though!

Are all Debbies books like this because I really enjoyed reading it. I dont think i have ever read a book so fast in my life and enjoyed it. Great I cant wait to check them out. Aww that is a shame that you are missing out on this book. Do we have discussion questions for this book if not I found some good ones off of her website.

Amanda wrote: "Are all Debbies books like this because I really enjoyed reading it. I dont think i have ever read a book so fast in my life and enjoyed it. Great I cant wait to check them out. Aww that is a sh..."

I might come back to it since so many people are enjoying it! I am determined to finish Red Riding Hood first and then some class books that I need to read to prepare the lessons for the day, lol. I also want to get back to Truth and Beauty. I saved all my notes from when I was reading it.

And no, we don't have any discussion questions yet, Amanda. Can you post the ones you have found along with the url? I can cross-post the DQ to Yahoo and Shelfari, giving Shelli a break from finding the questions this month.

I would definitely choose between friends over truth and beauty

the URL is http://www.debbiemacomber.com/index.c...

1. Do you think the author’s technique of using documents, diary entries and so on is effective? Did you find this approach easy to follow? Did you enjoy it? Could you tell your own life story in a similar way? If not, why?

2. Do you recognize any (or all!) of Debbie Macomber’s pop culture references in the early part of the novel (ie. The Twilight Zone, Bobby Darin, Marilyn Monroe, The Supremes, The Feminine Mystique)? Do you feel this helps create a context for Lesley and Jillian’s lives? How?

3. Debbie writes about the Cold War, the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Civil Rights Movement, J.F.K.’s assassination, the Berlin Wall and the Vietnam War fairly early in the book. Do you personally remember these events? Or have you encountered them through a parent’s memories, movies and documentaries, etc.? How does the treatment here compare to your memories and/or impressions? What impact did these events have on your life (especially if you were Lesley and Jillian’s age at the time)?

4. Do you think that when Lesley becomes pregnant as a teenager, her life is set up to mirror her mother’s? How do you feel about Lesley’s predicament? What would it have been like to be pregnant and unwed in the 1960s? Is it fair to say Lesley’s choices were limited by her family’s socio-economic status?

5. After high school, how do Lesley and Jillian deal with the social pressures they each face? Their experiences were obviously different, but were they the same in any way?

6. On page 66, Lesley says, “I wish I was stronger. Not physically but emotionally.” How does Lesley change as she grows older? What stays the same about her?

7. What do you think of Jillian’s continuing to write letters to Nick after his death? Does it seem healthy to you, a way of coping and dealing with her grief? Or do you think it’s obsessive and something that prevents her from “moving on”?

8. Lesley finally accepts that Buck is cheating on her and files for divorce. Do you sympathize with her decision to get back together with him? Do you understand it?

9. Lesley is frightened when Lindy starts having sex as a teenager. Do you agree with the way she handles the situation? Would you have done the same thing if you were in her shoes?

10. How do you feel about Buck’s dying in a homeless shelter? Do you think he deserved it for all the abuse and neglect he inflicted on Lesley and her children, or do you feel sorry for him regardless?

11. Do you have a friendship like that between Jillian and Lesley? Do you think their friendship is a realistic portrayal? How does a friend like this help you get through life’s problems?

12. Plato believed that “friends have all things in common.” Cicero wrote that “the shifts of Fortune test the reliability of friends.” Do you agree with either of these quotations? How do they reflect on this book?

Amanda wrote: "I would definitely choose between friends over truth and beauty

the URL is http://www.debbiemacomber.com/index.c...

1. Do you think the author’s technique of u..."

Thank you so much for posting these discussion questions, Amanda! I will cross-post Lark's response from Yahoo Cafe Libri later on. I'm trying to get voting lists out first for September. ;)

Cross post from Lark in Yahoo Cafe Libri:

1. Do you think the author's technique of using documents, diary entries and so
on is effective? Did you find this approach easy to follow? Did you enjoy it?
Could you tell your own life story in a similar way? If not, why?

Easy to follow, but not very interesting with the lack of dialogue.

2. Do you recognize any (or all!) of Debbie Macomber's pop culture references in
the early part of the novel (ie. The Twilight Zone, Bobby Darin, Marilyn Monroe,
The Supremes, The Feminine Mystique)? Do you feel this helps create a context
for Lesley and Jillian's lives? How?

I am from the same era as the characters, so all of those references were
familiar to me. But I think musical references would have been more engaging and
provided a much more rich emotional context for the story, since we all have
such sharp memories of the tunes of our adolescence.

3. Debbie writes about the Cold War, the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Civil Rights
Movement, J.F.K.'s assassination, the Berlin Wall and the Vietnam War fairly
early in the book. Do you personally remember these events? Or have you
encountered them through a parent's memories, movies and documentaries, etc.?
How does the treatment here compare to your memories and/or impressions? What
impact did these events have on your life (especially if you were Lesley and
Jillian's age at the time)?

I remember all these events. My experience with the Viet Nam war and the civil
rights movement was very different than the characters in this book. The war so
divided young people, that I did not know a single young person who was sort of
on the fence like Jillian. I am not saying that was a good thing, but it really
was a time of "if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the
problem." Jillian's stance of hating the war while supporting the troops was not
part of my experience at all. Similarly, my experience with the civil rights
movement was that it divided the country. I remember screaming arguments among
the adults in my life, not just news footage on TV.

4. Do you think that when Lesley becomes pregnant as a teenager, her life is set
up to mirror her mother's? How do you feel about Lesley's predicament? What
would it have been like to be pregnant and unwed in the 1960s? Is it fair to say
Lesley's choices were limited by her family's socio-economic status?

I was disappointed that the writer avoided the issue of illegal abortion, which
was a massive issue in my teen years, even at my convent high school. You could
not even get contraception then, and the fear of unwanted pregnancy was just an
overwhelming thing for teen girls. I also felt that the author really went flat
on how Lesley's pregnancy came about. Not only was the date rape description
weak, in that Lesley was unharmed and continued to have a sexual relationship
with the offender, which made no sense at all, but the also author missed the
opportunity to shine light on some of the real reasons girls engage in sexual
relationships before they are ready.

However, Buck telling Lesley that she had to have sex with him or he would be
harmed made me laugh - I remember boys who said that same thing: "blue balls."
Like I was supposed to be responsible - what am I, your nurse? But, again the
author was not realistic ... I did not know any girls who actually fell for that
line!

IMO, Lesley's choices about sex and child-bearing were limited by her religion
and the law, not her family income.

5. After high school, how do Lesley and Jillian deal with the social pressures
they each face? Their experiences were obviously different, but were they the
same in any way?

One of the weak points in this book, imo, was that the women were both saints.
Pretty flat characters really, who never made a poor decision or a mistake.

6. On page 66, Lesley says, "I wish I was stronger. Not physically but
emotionally." How does Lesley change as she grows older? What stays the same
about her?

See above.

7. What do you think of Jillian's continuing to write letters to Nick after his
death? Does it seem healthy to you, a way of coping and dealing with her grief?
Or do you think it's obsessive and something that prevents her from "moving on"?

I felt the letters to Nick were the author's device to communicate Jillian's
feelings in lieu of dialogue, and not something a person would really do.

8. Lesley finally accepts that Buck is cheating on her and files for divorce. Do
you sympathize with her decision to get back together with him? Do you
understand it?

Most victims of domestic violence go through a lengthy process of separation
from the offender. This did not surprise me.

9. Lesley is frightened when Lindy starts having sex as a teenager. Do you agree
with the way she handles the situation? Would you have done the same thing if
you were in her shoes?

I do not and I did not with my own teens. I think the era of pretending that
teens will not have sex is way, way behind us. I mean, not all of them will, but
some will and they should be kept safe, imo, just like when the engage in other
behavior they are not ready for, like bad driving and experimentation with
alcohol and pot. Demanding behavior you know will not get is just bad parenting.
But I did not have a teen like Lindy with whom I could not engage in dialogue.

10. How do you feel about Buck's dying in a homeless shelter? Do you think he
deserved it for all the abuse and neglect he inflicted on Lesley and her
children, or do you feel sorry for him regardless?

I did not feel he deserved it, but that it was the inevitable end to his life of
irresponsibility and his addiction.

11. Do you have a friendship like that between Jillian and Lesley? Do you think
their friendship is a realistic portrayal? How does a friend like this help you
get through life's problems?

I met my oldest friend in 6th grade and we went through all of the real events
mentioned in this book, and like the lead characters, we led very different
adult lives. I still rely on her opinions, and love her deeply.

12. Plato believed that "friends have all things in common." Cicero wrote that
"the shifts of Fortune test the reliability of friends." Do you agree with
either of these quotations? How do they reflect on this book?

It is true that life throws you lots of challenges and your real friends stick
with you. But, neither of these two women had any other friends, so it would be
hard to compare their friendship to any others.

Cross post from Im365ca at Yahoo Cafe Libri::

Hello to all, Here are my thoughts on this book:
#1. I found the technique of using documents, diary entries and announcements
interesting. (It's a little like snooping in someone's drawer)
This technique helps to advance the plot. It also changes point of view as
various characters state their positions.

#2. I personally remember the political events & singers. Of course, th
ese events shape our thinki
ng to some point.

#4. In the 60's, it was not acceptable to be pregnant & unwed. Women who were
single & pregnant were encouragee to give up their babies for adoption.
I think Lesley was in love with the person she wanted Buck to be.She hoped he
could change & become a responsible father & husband.
We need there was less information about topics like abuse, being bullied,
domestic violence. There were no shelters for women at that time.
Even Lesley leaving the trailer would have been more difficult had she not had
friends in the legal profession.
5. I think Lesley becomes more assertive as she divorces Buck & does not cave to
Lindy's blaming her for the breakup.
What remains the same is her devotion to her children.
6.&7 Jillian writing to Nick:
I think each person grieves differently. This was her way of dealing with the
pain.
8. I think Lesley wanted to give their marriage every opportunity to work.
9. Lindy was defiant. Lindy would likely not listen to her mom no matter what.
10. I feel sorry for Buck, but he made the choices he made.
11. I'm a little surprised that they kept their friendship to correspond as much
as they did, with Lesley having 4 kids, working, going to school, and Jillian
being a judge. Also, just the geographical question, being in different towns.
12. Plato's quote: Jillian & Lesley did not have all things in common, yet they
kept their friendship.
I do believe that shifts of fortune tests the reliability of friends.
certainly these two passed the test, considering all the ups and downs.
Those are my thoughts. I enjoyed the book.

Cross post from stepbillwagaman at Yahoo Cafe Libri::

I added my responses to the discussion questions - they are below Lark's
responses in a different font. I thought this might help generate
additional discussion.
Steph
1. Do you think the author's technique of using documents, diary
entries and so on is effective? Did you find this approach easy to
follow? Did you enjoy it? Could you tell your own life story in a
similar way? If not, why?
Easy to follow, but not very interesting with the lack of dialogue.

I agree - this format of reading through letters, diaries, clippings,
etc. is not very interesting. Some of the clippings didn't display
well on my Nook. The only book I read using this format, and it worked
well, is The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society. That book
drew you in, this one, not so much. > 2. Do you recognize any (or
all!) of Debbie Macomber's pop culture references in the early part of
the novel (ie. The Twilight Zone, Bobby Darin, Marilyn Monroe, The
Supremes, The Feminine Mystique)? Do you feel this helps create a
context for Lesley and Jillian's lives? How?
I am from the same era as the characters, so all of those references
were familiar to me. But I think musical references would have been
more engaging and provided a much more rich emotional context for the
story, since we all have such sharp memories of the tunes of our
adolescence.

I recognized the references, but they seemed like alot of fluff. To me,
it was more of a distraction and didn't make the story more interesting
> 3. Debbie writes about the Cold War, the Cuban Missile Crisis, the
Civil Rights Movement, J.F.K.'s assassination, the Berlin Wall and the
Vietnam War fairly early in the book. Do you personally remember these
events? Or have you encountered them through a parent's memories,
movies and documentaries, etc.? How does the treatment here compare to
your memories and/or impressions? What impact did these events have on
your life (especially if you were Lesley and Jillian's age at the
time)?
>
I remember all these events. My experience with the Viet Nam war and
the civil rights movement was very different than the characters in
this book. The war so divided young people, that I did not know a
single young person who was sort of on the fence like Jillian. I am
not saying that was a good thing, but it really was a time of "if you
are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem." Jillian's
stance of hating the war while supporting the troops was not part of my
experience at all. Similarly, my experience with the civil rights
movement was that it divided the country. I remember screaming
arguments among the adults in my life, not just news footage on TV.

Inserting these two characters into every major historical event felt
abit unnatural in this story - like a bad imitation of Forest Gump.
(sorry) > 4. Do you think that when Lesley becomes pregnant as a
teenager, her life is set up to mirror her mother's? How do you feel
about Lesley's predicament? What would it have been like to be pregnant
and unwed in the 1960s? Is it fair to say Lesley's choices were limited
by her family's socio-economic status?
>
I was disappointed that the writer avoided the issue of illegal
abortion, which was a massive issue in my teen years, even at my
convent high school. You could not even get contraception then, and the
fear of unwanted pregnancy was just an overwhelming thing for teen
girls. I also felt that the author really went flat on how Lesley's
pregnancy came about. Not only was the date rape description weak, in
that Lesley was unharmed and continued to have a sexual relationship
with the offender, which made no sense at all, but the also author
missed the opportunity to shine light on some of the real reasons girls
engage in sexual relationships before they are ready.
>
> However, Buck telling Lesley that she had to have sex with him or he
would be harmed made me laugh - I remember boys who said that same
thing: "blue balls." Like I was supposed to be responsible - what am
I, your nurse? But, again the author was not realistic ... I did not
know any girls who actually fell for that line!
>
> IMO, Lesley's choices about sex and child-bearing were limited by her
religion and the law, not her family income. Lesley's choices were
limited by her religious views and the law. Actually, the law against
abortion was probably irrelevant in this case because of her religious
beliefs. However, her socio-economic status contributed as well. Her
family was not in a position to help her out financially, making single
motherhood an impossibility. It did seem to me that she was setting
herself up for a life that mirrored her mother's - married to an
alcoholic who couldn't keep a job.
>
> 5. After high school, how do Lesley and Jillian deal with the social
pressures they each face? Their experiences were obviously different,
but were they the same in any way?
>
One of the weak points in this book, imo, was that the women were both
saints. Pretty flat characters really, who never made a poor decision
or a mistake.

I agree with this - these characters were flat and unrealistic. Debbie
Macomber uses the same theme in her books - some tragedy, followed by
HAPPY ENDING! Too schmaltzy for my taste. >
> 6. On page 66, Lesley says, "I wish I was stronger. Not physically
but emotionally." How does Lesley change as she grows older? What stays
the same about her?
>
See above.
>
> 7. What do you think of Jillian's continuing to write letters to Nick
after his death? Does it seem healthy to you, a way of coping and
dealing with her grief? Or do you think it's obsessive and something
that prevents her from "moving on"?
>
> I felt the letters to Nick were the author's device to communicate
Jillian's feelings in lieu of dialogue, and not something a person
would really do.

Yep, not at all realistic or even believable. Just a way to stick to
the letter-writing format. > 8. Lesley finally accepts that Buck is
cheating on her and files for divorce. Do you sympathize with her
decision to get back together with him? Do you understand it?
>
Most victims of domestic violence go through a lengthy process of
separation from the offender. This did not surprise me.

I didn't sympathasize at all with Lesley's decision to get back with
Buck. By then, there was a pattern to his offenses, and it was pretty
obvious (to everyone else) that he wasn't going to change. > 9.
Lesley is frightened when Lindy starts having sex as a teenager. Do you
agree with the way she handles the situation? Would you have done the
same thing if you were in her shoes?
>
I do not and I did not with my own teens. I think the era of pretending
that teens will not have sex is way, way behind us. I mean, not all of
them will, but some will and they should be kept safe, imo, just like
when the engage in other behavior they are not ready for, like bad
driving and experimentation with alcohol and pot. Demanding behavior
you know will not get is just bad parenting. But I did not have a teen
like Lindy with whom I could not engage in dialogue.

No clue. > 10. How do you feel about Buck's dying in a homeless
shelter? Do you think he deserved it for all the abuse and neglect he
inflicted on Lesley and her children, or do you feel sorry for him
regardless?
> I did not feel he deserved it, but that it was the inevitable end to
his life of irresponsibility and his addiction.
Agreed With the choices Buck made throughout his life, this tragic
finish was inevitable. > 11. Do you have a friendship like that
between Jillian and Lesley? Do you think their friendship is a
realistic portrayal? How does a friend like this help you get through
life's problems?
>
I met my oldest friend in 6th grade and we went through all of the real
events mentioned in this book, and like the lead characters, we led
very different adult lives. I still rely on her opinions, and love her
deeply.

I think it's tough to maintain a frindship like this over decades -
especially when you become geographically separated. Also, as you grow
up/older, you change, and may not have that much in common anymore.
These two characters started out with school and dreams of college in
common, but became much different from one another and certainly led
very different lives. The friendship is enviable, perhaps abit
unrealistic. > 12. Plato believed that "friends have all things in
common." Cicero wrote that "the shifts of Fortune test the reliability
of friends." Do you agree with either of these quotations? How do they
reflect on this book?
>
It is true that life throws you lots of challenges and your real
friends stick with you. But, neither of these two women had any other
friends, so it would be hard to compare their friendship to any others.

I agree with the quotation completely.

Cross post from Lark at Yahoo Cafe Libri::

Steph -

Q 2 & 3 - I agree that the author's use of current events was just filler,
padding a plot that was sort of overused.

Q4 - I knew lots of girls who disappeared pregnancies - one who died from the
procedure. They were both Catholic and Protestant. The only Dr in my town who
would give teens the pill was Catholic. Catholic women, in my experience, have
always pretty much ignored the Church on these matters. My mother advised me
not to bother to confess using contraception. But I do agree with you that her
mother's economic struggles made Lesley's own parenting much more difficult.
She was mostly on her own. And that daughters of alcoholic men are drawn to the
same.

Q5 - My library had a entire shelf of books by this author, so I had a feeling
it might be pretty formulaic.

Lark

Cross post from Steph at Yahoo Cafe Libri::

Q4- Yes, in reality, many ignore(d) the laws of church and found a way around
illegal abortions. This character, though, would not even take contraception
until she had four(?) kids, and was supporting them without much help from her
husband. At that point, she finally gave in and took birth control. This also
seemed abit unrealistic.

I started reading Debbie Macomber because she had a series about running a knit
shop/club, a topic of interest to me. But even within that series, the books
were formulaic. Thanks for coming up with that word by the way - I couldn't
think of it!

Steph

I enjoyed this book so much that I couldn't wait to give it to my best friends. I don't know how to analyze what I'm reading like some of you but I do enjoy your analysis! Donna

Donna wrote: "I enjoyed this book so much that I couldn't wait to give it to my best friends. I don't know how to analyze what I'm reading like some of you but I do enjoy your analysis! Donna"

I think a lot of it is just close-reading the book and pulling out quotes that make us think about something--whether it is a personal reflection or some other connection, to the book or another read or something. There are the traditional manners of analyzing a book, like examining the characters, setting, plot, themes, etc., and then there is just close reading.

Thx Adrianna, I'll try some of your suggestions. I usually find some interesting stuff to either research more or highlight. But then I am so engrossed in the book that I think I will get back to it which I don't! D

Donna wrote: "Thx Adrianna, I'll try some of your suggestions. I usually find some interesting stuff to either research more or highlight. But then I am so engrossed in the book that I think I will get back to..."

LOL! I hear you there. I do the same things myself!