Bitterblue discussion

I don't want to get into heavy discussion about the book, just "when did you guess" stuff (it's okay to say "i never guessed")and a few other questions.

Saf's Grace?

The significance of Ashen's embroidery?

Fox's alliegance?

What the printing press in the shop was for?

That Po's dream was right about the bones?

That all four advisors were behind the plots/how many others were involved?

Did you ever guess the passages-behind-wall-hangings thing?

That Leck wrote in the Dellian language?

How Leck really tortured his "favourites"/why they were all so afraid of the past?

Hava's father?

Madlen's identity?

That Fire would show up?

That Saf would leave?

That Bitterblue would not "end up" with anyone?



When did you cry out of sadness?

When did you cry out of happiness?


Did you ever have to put the book down because you were overwhelmed by something or needed to think?


What theories did you have that never panned out? Did you think anyone was going to turn out to be a double agent? (and turned out to be good)

Answering myself with my answers to the questions :P

Saf's Grace? The second time Bitterblue made reference to the baby dream Saf gave her, before Po said "saf told me to have good dreams"

The significance of Ashen's embroidery? Quite early, it always made sure to list a good number of the many little images in the emboroidery so I figured it as soon as the book really mentioned cyphers a couple times near the beginning.

Fox's alliegance?
Probably halfway through the book, a few chapters before Bitterblue started to suspect. I guess when the key thing happened but I still thought she might be trustworthy for some reason.

What the printing press in the shop was for? I didn't guess it at all.

That Po's dream was right about the bones? I thought the bones were in the river before Po mentioned this, the river seemed important with the random bridges.

That all four advisors were behind the plots/how many others were involved? I never believed it of Thiel.

Did you ever guess the passages-behind-wall-hangings thing? Not at all.

That Leck wrote in the Dellian language? It always talked about his weird hand and the squiggles so I guessed that yes, perhaps it was a style of writing from the Dells. Not that there was a whole dictionary to learn from.

How Leck really tortured his "favourites"/why they were all so afraid of the past? I never guessed really, I knew they were all closely involved but I never suspected they were forced to rape.

Hava's father? Soon as it described her red eye.

Madlen's identity? I actually wondered pretty early if she was graced at all, the description of how she dealt with the knife wound seemed pretty clinical, I didn't see how the skill was unnatural. But I didn't really guess she was FROM the Dells as a spy, I did think her knowledge came from there somehow.

That Fire would show up? I thought perhaps when it kept making a big deal of her wall hanging, but it broke my heart to hope so I didn't think about it till Katsa found the rat.

That Saf would leave? I never guessed at all.

That Bitterblue would not "end up" with anyone? I suspected it through most of the book.



When did you cry out of sadness? I cried many times for Bitterblue when she was thinking about her mother, usually the few happier memories she had. When Katsa cried over parting with Po again so soon.

When did you cry out of happiness? When Fire showed up, I cried from then to the end actually. And a few moments with Po when he was being amazing and sweet. When Katsa showed up for the first time.


Did you ever have to put the book down because you were overwhelmed by something or needed to think? When Fire actually did show up. Some of Ashen's notes.



What theories did you have that never panned out? Did you think anyone was going to turn out to be a double agent? (and turned out to be good)

-I thought the printing press was going to be the press that printed Lecks journals, I swear that I remembered reading that Bitterblue saw a weird symbol on it.

-I thought Thiel would turn out to have been in love with Ashen (which he might still have been) and possibly have fathered Bitterblue.

-I thought the statues WERE the missing persons, but I'm glad they weren't. Too overdone :P

Saf's Grace? the night that BB 'slept' with him and realized that she could sleep and have an amazing fearless dream

The significance of Ashen's embroidery? as soon as the mention of pictures came up actually. i'm always looking for codes

Fox's alliegance? VERY early off. i always thought that there was something there - and i knew that she wasn't who she 'claimed' to be

What the printing press in the shop was for? i was hoping that i got it right when Death talked about what BB's father did

That Po's dream was right about the bones? Po is always right about sensing things and even when he is delirious you knew that he'd get it right

That all four advisors were behind the plots/how many others were involved? i never trusted them. if they were her father's advisers then to me they were evil and in on the plot

Did you ever guess the passages-behind-wall-hangings thing? i didn't get that at first but i knew that there was some significance of their placement since they were all 'monsters' in strategic places

That Leck wrote in the Dellian language? that took me a bit longer - i didn't even think about that being the way that he coded things. don't know why

How Leck really tortured his "favourites"/why they were all so afraid of the past? that was typical leck actually -

Hava's father? i figured that one out pretty quick as well - with all the attentions that leck put on certain people (and him not doing the surgeries himself) i kind of figured that he would have a child and when they didn't note a father for her, it was clear to me

Madlen's identity? not until the end. that one really shocked me

That Fire would show up? i was hoping the entire book that she would and when it was taking katsa such a long time to come back, i started to think that it was possible.

That Saf would leave? i was hoping that he would stay - so that was a surprise

That Bitterblue would not "end up" with anyone? that made me sad - i still think that she does/will....



When did you cry out of sadness? ALL THE TIME

When did you cry out of happiness? ALL THE TIME


Did you ever have to put the book down because you were overwhelmed by something or needed to think? not really.


What theories did you have that never panned out? Did you think anyone was going to turn out to be a double agent? (and turned out to be good) i always knew that fox wasn't who she seemed, but i kind of thought that maybe giddon had something else going on aside from just trying to woo BB sort of. i wanted to think the best of Saf so i thought that he would be doing something good even though he was kind of bad.

Madlen. What the hell.....? A spy? I didn't get that at all. Well maybe a little, when she apologized and all because I was so sonfused at why she was apologizing? I thought it was because she lied about being Graced, but then that didn't really work out because it didn't merit a begging apology.

The thing about Cashore's book is that she sometimes never explicitly says someting and kinda expects you to catch on. Most of the time I do. But sometimes I'm a little slower and did not get that at all of Madlen's character.

Saf's Grace?
Never knew. Not until she said it. I was thinking more along the lines of being sneaky.

The significance of Ashen's embroidery?
Never guessed. I kind of tune out when they start talking about knitting/embroidery.

Fox's alliegance?
I knew there was something wrong about her from the beginning. No one is ever called 'Fox' for no reason. And her grace was too powerful to be downplayed as a 'useful servant'.

What the printing press in the shop was for?
I knew they were doing something rebellious and for the people, but I kind of thought they were going to turn out to be radicals. It was a happy surprise, you could say.

That Po's dream was right about the bones?
I never doubt anything that leaves Po's mouth. He is Awesome and All-Knowing in my mind.

That all four advisors were behind the plots/how many others were involved?
I guessed from the start. People who've gone through trauma like that shouldn't ever be in charge of a government. It was obvious they were mentally unstable, and nothing good comes from leaving people who aren't in their right minds in charge.

Did you ever guess the passages-behind-wall-hangings thing?
No. I knew there were passages, but I wasn't looking for a pattern. I kind of thought of Hogwarts during this.

That Leck wrote in the Dellian language?
I suspected, and then I knew. He was secretive, and it seemed as an easy fix.

How Leck really tortured his "favourites"/why they were all so afraid of the past?
I knew he'd cut them up, but I didn't know he'd made others do it.

Hava's father?
Nope. Didn't guess until Death wrote her the summary. I love Death.

Madlen's identity?
Didn't know. Didn't pay attention to it, really. I was too focused on Bitterblue.

That Fire would show up?
I knew when I saw the cover. "Companion to Fire" gave it away. I knew there was going to be some mix.

That Saf would leave?
Well, I was hoping it'd be some kind of Po/Katsa relationship, but the more we saw of them together, the more I knew I was hoping in vain. Sigh. And Teddy's warning helped.

That Bitterblue would not "end up" with anyone?
Didn't know. To be honest, I thought that if not Saf, maybe Giddon? They had a good relationship!

When did you cry out of sadness?
I didn't cry in this book. I was depressed for them, but I wasn't so devastated that I cried like I did for Katsa and Fire. Maybe because I was ready. After all, when the main characters name is "Bitterblue" you know you have to brace yourself. (The Katsa/ Po needing space thing was sad,and so was all the torture and mind rape.)

When did you cry out of happiness?
Didn't cry tears, but I did cry out in happiness when Po first came. And then I whooped when Katsa entered. And I exhaled in excitement when it was clear Fire was coming (and that Brigan, and his daughter (she's the army's director!) were OK).

Did you ever have to put the book down because you were overwhelmed by something or needed to think?
The Ciphers gave me a headache. But it was an amusing addition. And the math made me put the book down because I remembered I had to do my calculus homework.

What theories did you have that never panned out? Did you think anyone was going to turn out to be a double agent? (and turned out to be good).
I thought, like I said above, that Bitterblue and Giddon might end up together romantically. I know that he was older than her, and so on, but they had a spark, ya know? (Although, I admit to be a bit confused by Giddon's sexuality- wasn't there one part when Beetle asked him if he was in love with Po- and he didn't answer straight out?) And he had just lost his land, and all. It could've been perfect.
I thought, actually, that Death was going to be a double agent in the end. He gave me a kind of Filch and Mrs. Norris feel. But, boy, am I happy he was not, because I LOVE DEATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I really enjoyed his analysis at the end, and his contrary nature! And his cat-loving nature! WOO-HOO DEATH!!!

In the end, I LOVED this book, but it left me thirsting for more. I can't wait until Kristen Cashore's next book is released.

-I thought Thiel would turn out to have been in love with Ashen (which he might still have been) and possibly have fathered Bitterblue.

-I thought the statues WERE the missing persons, but I'm glad they weren't. Too overdone :P

I thought both of these were going to happen too! The second is classic Narnia

Saf's Grace? When he told her to dream the second time.

The significance of Ashen's embroidery? When Bitterblue began to examine it more closely.

Fox's alliegance? Never!

What the printing press in the shop was for? When they wouldn't show Bitterbue.

That Po's dream was right about the bones? From when he had it.

That all four advisors were behind the plots/how many others were involved? From the beginning, almost.

Did you ever guess the passages-behind-wall-hangings thing? Not until late.

That Leck wrote in the Dellian language? Never.

How Leck really tortured his "favourites"/why they were all so afraid of the past? Only when Runnemood lied about it.

Hava's father? Only when I read a few of Leck's journal entries.

Madlen's identity? Never!

That Fire would show up? When Bitterblue was so intrugued by the wall hanging.

That Saf would leave? Sadly, I knew for a while. (I still cried)

That Bitterblue would not "end up" with anyone? Early on.



When did you cry out of sadness? Pretty much the last 100 pages I sobbed. And more.

When did you cry out of happiness? A LOT, but mostly when Bitterblue and Saf were together...


Did you ever have to put the book down because you were overwhelmed by something or needed to think? TOO OFTEN.


What theories did you have that never panned out? Did you think anyone was going to turn out to be a double agent? (and turned out to be good) I thought that Giddon and Bitterblue might have a thing but i'm sooooooo glad they didn't he's not right for her!!

Allie wrote: "Saf's Grace? When he told her to dream the second time.

The significance of Ashen's embroidery? When Bitterblue began to examine it more closely.

Fox's alliegance? Never!

What the printing press..."

Oh I actually do think Bitterblue and Giddon were being set up as a couple. There was an unaccountable tenderness and I'm certain he had feelings for her. I really looked out for it on my reread. I suspect that if there is another book this might happen.

Also thanks everyone for answering this! Whenever I love a book I love to get really indepth about the reading experience, but all I ever see threads for are "the guy was hot" "i hope theres a movie" "will there be more books" and "why does everyone love/hate this"

Stupid moment. Who was Hava's father. Oh god I feel so dimwitted.

Mary wrote: "Stupid moment. Who was Hava's father. Oh god I feel so dimwitted."

Leck - she and Bitterblue are half sisters.

Okay. That is what I thought. I just wanted to make sure. Thank you.

Saf's Grace? Mm. Creating dreams. It is mentioned after his...night with Bitterblue.

The significance of Ashen's embroidery? I honestly don't know. I feel like Ashen needed a way to cope with the things going around her. To record the truth, she would write in cipher and put it in her embroidery.

Fox's alliegance? Fox is seemingly an ally to no one. She does things for herself. She is not Bitterblue's Fox. And she is not anyone else's.

What the printing press in the shop was for? Mm. Making reading materials for people who didn't know how to read to read.

That Po's dream was right about the bones? Yes. He was. Remember in the river that they found bones? The same place where one of Bitterblue's advisors was found.

That all four advisors were behind the plots/how many others were involved? Yes. It seems like Thiel was the one in charge. They were involved with the cutting and hurting of children. Of anything else? I can't remember.

Did you ever guess the passages-behind-wall-hangings thing? What do you mean by this? I mean...the passages all led to important places.

That Leck wrote in the Dellian language? Well...he loved the Dells. That is easy to tell. He wrote it to probably...praise the Dells in that way. As a way to try and change Monsea to the Dells.

How Leck really tortured his "favourites"/why they were all so afraid of the past? He raped them. Simple as that really. And they were afraid of the past because of the things he did or made them do.

Hava's father? Leck.

Madlen's identity? Madlen... Mm. She is a Dellian. If I remember correctly.

That Fire would show up? This was surprising. For me. Honestly, I didn't like 'Fire'. It wasn't very interesting... Too much sex. I didn't really like it!

That Saf would leave? I expected it. Honestly, Saf is flighty. It was obvious he would leave. Saf and Bitterblue is not a safe relationship.

That Bitterblue would not "end up" with anyone? Well...that isn't set in stone. I think she'll end up with Giddon.



When did you cry out of sadness? Mm. I didn't.

When did you cry out of happiness? Mmm. I don't know! This book made me laugh and feel angry. I don't know really. I just might not remember!


Did you ever have to put the book down because you were overwhelmed by something or needed to think? No. I kept reading. I was riveted.


What theories did you have that never panned out? Did you think anyone was going to turn out to be a double agent? (and turned out to be good) Giddon and Bitterblue. I honestly thought they would get together!