Chaos Reading discussion

Whatever books you want on the Asian Fiction shelf, put em here.

Just out of interest, what do people think of as "Asian Fiction"? Set in an Asian country? By an Asian author? With an Asian sensibility? Does it include books from countries like India? What about South-East Asia - I would think a book by a Japanese writer is likely to be a quite different sensibility to something written by a Vietnamese writer.

I'm going to also nominate:

The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle and Kafka on the Shore by Haruki Murakami

Asian fiction, in my opinion, should give prominence to the history or culture of Asia, an Asian country as the backdrop of the story, with (but not necessarily) Asian characters.

I guess every region in Asia has its own unique set of stories to share, which includes South-East Asia, so it should include books from any Asian country. My pick'd be:

Naomi by Junichirō Tanizaki
Gora by Rabindranath Tagore

Nasrul wrote: "Asian fiction, in my opinion, should give prominence to the history or culture of Asia, an Asian country as the backdrop of the story, with (but not necessarily) Asian characters.

I guess every r..."

I 100% agree.

I would like to nominate:

Fires on the Plain by Shohei Ooka
Kamikaze: A Japanese Pilot's Own Spectacular Story of the Famous Suicide Squadrons by Yasuo Kuwahara

My choices are:

The Lily Theater by Lulu Wang
Jia by Hyejin Kim
Memoirs of a Geisha
The Good Earth

The Language of Threads
Women of the Silk
The Samurai's Garden
The Street of a Thousand Blossoms

Gail Tsukiyama


Also one that might be of interest to some here, but I didn't particularly like was Out by Natsuo Kirino. The story disturbed me, but the writing was good.

Wild Swans: Three Daughters of China

The Sailor Who Fell from Grace with the Sea

I'd define Asian fiction as any fiction written by an Asian, although I think it's fair to put Middle Eastern in its own category right out of the gate.

In addition to some of the excellent suggestions above, here are a few that would top my list:

The Sea of Fertility
Rashomon and Seventeen Other Stories
Woman in the Dunes
Midnight s Children
The God of Small Things
Novel Without a Name

And, Ruby, where’s your nomination for Battle Royale?

I would say Asian fiction and Asian-American is two different perspectives.
I really like Shanghai Girls and Dreams of Joy by Lisa See, Snow Flower and the Secret Fan was alright but not my favorite of hers. She is Asian-American although she looks white.

Snow Country by Yasunari Kawabata

After reading this book, I became a big fan of Kawabata.

The Joy Luck Club
The Bonesetter's Daughter
The Kitchen God's Wife
Shōgun
The Last Samurai

Botchan

When I hear the term "Asian fiction", I think of oriental (Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc). Although India and Russia are also Asian, I think of them in different catagories: Indian fiction & Russian fiction. The feel, customs and perspective are so different between the cultures that they feel seperate, I find.
Asian fiction, in general, contains customs, thoughts, history and perspective from the Asian country, whether written by an Asian author or otherwise.

Some Asian fiction that I enjoyed & that hasn't been mentioned yet:
Under Heaven
The Last Chinese Chef
The Disappeared
Finding George Orwell in Burma

I'm still struggling with what constitutes "Asian Fiction", but Anna's right - Battle Royale certainly needs to go here!

I think the following terms we can probably all agree to live with for an Asian Fiction shelf:
-Must be written by an author who self-identifies as being from an Asian country (regardless of where they may be actually living).
-Should reflect an Asian culture and/or literary sensibility.

We do need a working definition of "Asian" though. It sounds like we're all happy for East-Asia and South-East Asia to be included in the definition.

Personally I don't think Russian, Middle-Eastern or South Asian sit well all together here, but I am more than happy to be advised by people better acquainted with those regions.

Ruby wrote: "I'm going to also nominate:

The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle and Kafka on the Shore by Haruki Murakami"

Those are both great books. I would like to recommend Norwegian Wood and After Dark by Haruki Murakami as well. Any one of these would be a great read.

Ruby wrote: "I'm still struggling with what constitutes "Asian Fiction", but Anna's right - Battle Royale certainly needs to go here!

I think the following terms we can probably all agree to live with for an A..."

I think South Asia should be included. I don't think Asian fiction should be limited to just a region of Asia and I wouldn't consider Russian fiction to be Asian. It feels really strange to not have South Asian fiction in an Asian bookshelf, imho. And technically, the Middle-East is Asia and I'd include it too.

Since the Asian cultures are commonly exchanged and adopted across the continent, I can relate Japanese literature to Asian as much I can with Indian literature.

Fair enough. Happy to include everyone but the Russians! ;P

For the purpose of discussion though..
I think there's a perspective thing to all of this too. In Australia, a lot of people from Indian or Pakistani or other South-Asian backgrounds don't like to be considered "Asian". For people living in South-East Asia though, I can see how the reverse is probably true.

There's also the point that geographically, Russia is a region in Asia. So when you say you don't think it should be limited to a region in Asia, logically that would include Russian literature too.

So...... Russia?

Guys, "white" is not a culture or a country, okay?

I think majority of Russians wouldn't categorize themselves as Asian.
Since Russia geography is in eastern Europe and North Asia..
Maybe only these Russian authors whose books are set in Russian North Asian region should be added as Asian.

Ruby wrote: "For the purpose of discussion though..
I think there's a perspective thing to all of this too. In Australia, a lot of people from Indian or Pakistani or other South-Asian backgrounds don't like to ..."

That's interesting! With regards to the attitudes of the South Asian in Australia, that is.

Anyways, the Russian problem, I think Anna has offered a pretty good solution. I excluded Russian in my suggestion, primarily because culturally, it too far off.

Anna wrote: "I think majority of Russians wouldn't categorize themselves as Asian. "

Anna - Yes, I think that is what it comes down to. If the author considers themselves Asian, then they'd fit here. The assumption we're making is that most Russian authors don't consider themselves as "Asian", and that's more than likely true for most of the Russian literature we'll come across. I'm sure there are exceptions, particularly in some of the smaller countries in the region, but there will always be exceptions.

I'm happy to say we'll leave Russian lit out & do a separate shelf for it at some point, without splitting Russia by region. I just want to make sure we're being explicit about the assumptions we're making.

One last curly question: Do the majority of Middle-Eastern authors consider themselves Asian? I have no experience with middle-eastern lit, so bring the advice!

Rida wrote: "Look, it's like how Australia's not really in the West, but culturally, it's very Western. It's sort of the same thing with Russia. Catch my drift?"

Yes, I understood you. I was making the point that it's not okay to equate culture with skin colour.

Ruby wrote: "Anna wrote: "I think majority of Russians wouldn't categorize themselves as Asian. "

Anna - Yes, I think that is what it comes down to. If the author considers themselves Asian, then they'd fit he..."

Interesting question! I hope someone from the Middle East can help us out here. Again, geographically, they're Asian and culturally, in South-East Asia, like Malaysia, Indonesia and Singapore, Middle-Eastern culture is quite visible in daily life. But I'm not sure if the writers see themselves as Asian or just Arabs or Persians, etc.

Maybe shelf for the Middle East? More shelf = more books to name.
And personally when I hear Asian literature I think of China, Japan, India not Israel, Iran or Saudi Arabia. But then I only recently started reading Asian literature and I'm more familiar with European.

Ruby wrote: "I'm happy to say we'll leave Russian lit out & do a separate shelf for it at some point, without splitting Russia by region.."

As largest country in the world Russia deserves that honour!

Rida wrote: "No, I agree with Anna. When I think Asian, I think Central/South/East Asia. I don't think many Arab countries identify as Asian."

Yeah, I think that's about right. Middle Eastern fiction should have a bookshelf of their own.

Ruby wrote: "I think the following terms we can probably all agree to live with for an Asian Fiction shelf:
-Must be written by an author who self-identifies as being from an Asian country (regardless of where they may be actually living).
-Should reflect an Asian culture and/or literary sensibility."

Just for clarification: Are the above statements linked by an "and/or" or just an and? (If that makes sense). Because Memoirs of a Geisha, a title that has been nominated, is written by a European-American who did a lot of detailed research about the culture of geisha in Japan. So the novel fits well with the second statement, but not at all with the first.

Theo wrote: "Ruby wrote: "I think the following terms we can probably all agree to live with for an Asian Fiction shelf:
-Must be written by an author who self-identifies as being from an Asian country (regardl..."

Good point, Theo. I was hoping I could get away without clarifying that, but you busted me! Personally, because of my background with Indigenous cultures here, it's not seen as valid for a person from outside the culture to write about it, but I'm not sure if this is a comparable scenario. Anyone with Japanese expertise?

Lots to think about, for sure.
I think Russian literature can stand on its own. It's a huge country, has lots of literature (fills a good-sized shelf) and culturally, except for the steppes, isn't very asian. The country just lives in Asia.
I still see Indian and Arab cultures as different than western-Asian. However, that may be a misguided perception on my part; living so far removed from either cultures. If these were combined on our shelves under "Asian Fiction", I'd be totally okay with it.
Indian literature has grown exponentially over the past few years and could make an interesting shelf on its own just for the fact of the great literature that's coming from India.

Which reminds me of another good book for our shelf: A Fine Balance.

I haven't read Memoirs of a Geisha but I have heard/read that its full of the Western stereotypes and mistakes. Mineko Iwasaki, woman whoArthur Golden interviewed for his research was extremely unhappy with his book.

I think to be on safe side only Asian authors should be added to Asian shelf.

The same problem also arises with The Good Earth. Should it also be excluded?

And The Last Samurai

Personally, I wasn't fond of Memoirs of a Geisha but that doesn't mean it shouldn't go on our shelf. Should we worry about whether others are unhappy with the book or if it's considered to have mistakes? Without living in an Asian country/culture, how can we determine what's a mistake and what's not?
I guess we can define what the purpose of our shelves are. If it's to list books that we recommend then, if they fit the shelf topic (ie: Asian Lit), they should be included. If in future, we as a group decide to remove a book from the shelf for whatever reason so be it, but it should be our decision.

Petra wrote: "Should we worry about whether others are unhappy with the book or if it's considered to have mistakes? Without living in an Asian country/culture, how can we determine what's a mistake and what's not? "

I think the issue is more that it's not by an Asian writer, and the fact that it's considered by the Asian source to have mistakes makes it even more contentious as "Asian Fiction". I'm sympathetic to those who have had their fill of their culture being defined by westerners, and would say "Fiction about Asia" is not necessarily "Asian Fiction".

Now, where to put writers like Kazuo Ishiguro? Would his A Pale View Of Hills qualify but not The Unconsoled?

Oh, okay. That seems reasonable then. Thanks!

Whitney wrote: "I think the issue is more that it's not by an Asian writer, and the fact that it's considered by the Asian source to have mistakes makes it even more contentious as "Asian Fiction". I'm sympathetic to those who have had their fill of their culture being defined by westerners, and would say "Fiction about Asia" is not necessarily "Asian Fiction"."

That's my feeling exactly, Whitney.

I haven't read any Ishiguro (yet), so I don't know what distinction you're drawing between those books. I would think that to some extent, if the author considers themselves Asian, then their cultural perspective will come through in the writing, whatever the subject matter. The cultural component might be subtle, but maybe for our purposes, we could assume it's always there?

Anna wrote: "I haven't read Memoirs of a Geisha but I have heard/read that its full of the Western stereotypes and mistakes. Mineko Iwasaki, woman whoArthur Golden interviewed for his research was extremely un..."

I agree with Anna that only Asian authors should be on the shelf but we need not be extremely strict about it. Perhaps, we could discuss on it and decide together whenever the exception arises?

I suggest defining Asia from an Asian perspective, and not a Western-centric view. For instance, I see Indians, Thais, Viets, Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Indonesians, Malaysians, Burmese, Laotians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Sri-Lankans, to name a few, as Asians and I don't 'struggle' to see them as Asians.

Anyways, Whitney, I have not read Kazuo Ishiguro but if I recall his interview with Graham Swift or Kenzaburo Oe, he did mention he saw himself more as a British writer? This is a tricky one.

Nasrul wrote: "Anyways, Whitney, I have not read Kazuo Ishiguro but if I recall his interview with Graham Swift or Kenzaburo Oe, he did mention he saw himself more as a British writer? This is a tricky one. .."

I was being puckish in bringing up Ishiguro, since he would be in the grey area. He was born in Japan, but moved to England at a young age. I doubt The Remains of the Day shows up on many Asian fiction lists, but some of his novels do deal with Asian characters and themes, such as An Artist of the Floating World.

I think we can restrict the shelf to Asian authors only. I have no issues with saying that something like The Good Earth can be excluded from this particular shelf. It can always be nominated for other shelves, and that one is already on the Classics shelf regardless.

Nasrul wrote: "Anyways, Whitney, I have not read Kazuo Ishiguro but if I recall his interview with Graham Swift or Kenzaburo Oe, he did mention he saw himself more as a British writer? This is a tricky one. ."

People often identify with more than one culture at a time, though. I can't really comment on these particular authors, but I'd surprised if they didn't identify with Asia in some way.

Ruby wrote: "I think we can restrict the shelf to Asian authors only. I have no issues with saying that something like The Good Earth can be excluded from this particular shelf. It can always be nominated for ..."

Ooh, okay I located the interview I was talking about. It was conducted by Graham Swift:

Graham Swift: You were born in Japan and came to England when you were five...How Japanese would you say you are?

KI: I'm not entirely like English people because I've been brought up by Japanese parents in a Japanese-speaking home. My parents didn't realize we were going to stay in this country for so long; they felt responsible for keeping me in touch with Japanese values. I do have a distinct background. I think differently, my perspectives are slightly different.

GS: Would you say that the rest of you is English? Do you feel particularly English?

KI: People are not two thirds one thing and the remainder some thing else. Temperament, personality or outlook don't divide quite like that. The bits don't separate clearly. You end up a funny homogeneous mixture. This is something that will become more common in the latter part of the century - people with mixed cultural backgrounds and mixed racial backgrounds. That's the way the world is going.

This came from Swift's Making an Elephant: Writing from Within, page 108. I just thought I shared his viewpoints on the issue.

Thanks, Nasrul. That's really a great example. I think that supports the idea of putting a writer like Kazuo Ishiguro on the Asian Fiction shelf. Is that how you interpret it?

Ruby wrote: "Thanks, Nasrul. That's really a great example. I think that supports the idea of putting a writer like Kazuo Ishiguro on the Asian Fiction shelf. Is that how you interpret it?"

Yes, that's how I interpret it. Again, maybe it is on a case-to-case basis? Maybe some books are valid and some don't make the cut.

It depends on the characters (if they're Asian?), the setting (is it Asia, or least part of the story is set in Asia?) or both. Since it is fiction, it doesn't matter, for instance in Ishiguro's case, if the Japan that is portrayed in his books is made-up?

An excerpt from Wiki ("The Novelist in Today's World: A Conversation", boundary 2 journal, page 110): In an interview with Kenzaburo Oe, Ishiguro acknowledged that the Japanese settings of his first two novels were imaginary: "I grew up with a very strong image in my head of this other country, a very important other country to which I had a strong emotional tie[...]. In England I was all the time building up this picture in my head, an imaginary Japan."

All sound like awesome suggestions :-)

You must add Out by Natsuo Kirino (but not Grotesque which I inappropriately laughed at!) and Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World...

If anyone has read books by Ryū Murakami I would like to know some recommendations, haven't had time to properly get into his books yet :D

Leo wrote: "You must add Out by Natsuo Kirino (but not Grotesque which I inappropriately laughed at!) and Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World..."

Oh no! What's wrong with Grotesque? I have that unread on my shelf!

Although it's pretty clear, I think you can happily read Out without realising how much Natsuo Kirino doesn't like men... but the same can't be said for Grotesque, to the point that I found it funny!

The middle section is quite cool, following a main character's journey across China, but not worth reading the rest of the book tbh.

Plus it says on the back it's a book about the death of two prostitutes (intrigue mystery gasp), and in the book she says things (almost) like "I want to talk [aimlessly] for [200 pages] about how they grew up- what is wrong with you for wanting to know so much about the murders?" Cheers Nats.

I would suggest an avoid Ruby, there's much better stuff on that shelf :-)

Thanks Leo. I did notice the ratings were lower for that book. Now I know why!

Leo wrote:
"... If anyone has read books by Ryū Murakami I would like to know some recommendations, haven't had time to properly get into his books yet :D"

I've only read one: Popular Hits of the Showa Era, about an escalation of what amounts to a gang war between a group of young men and a group of older divorced women. As you might imagine, the situation quickly deteriorates into absurdity and ultra-violence. I really enjoyed it, but it has received mixed reviews and the translation has drawn some criticism.

I certainly plan on reading more by him. If you're lukewarm about starting with "Popular Hits" from what I've written or what others have said in reviews, it seems that In the Miso Soup is very popular among R. Murakami's fans. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and bump that one on up my TBR list. But like I said, "Popular Hits" definitely has made ME want to read more.
.......

To add another suggestion to the pile:
The Fat Years. Again, it's one I enjoyed but has drawn a lot of mixed reviews.

Nicholas wrote:
I've only read one: Popular Hits of the..."

Cheers dude! I read Piercing and thought it wasn't bad, and the movie of Audition made me want to read the book. I'll definitely give Popular Hits of the Showa Era a try too!

Has anyone read Koji Suzuki? He's in the top five feet of my TBR list, since I loved the movies based on Ring, Spiral and Dark Water.

How about Kenzaburo Oe? I read the first story in Teach Us to Outgrow Our Madness: Four Short Novels and disliked it so much I never read anymore, probably not really a fair assessment.

I've read most of Murakami (Haruki) and would second the inclusion of any one of them.