Into the Forest discussion

So here is my overview of Andersen from when I last read the collection.

Several critics have pointed out that Andersen has a cult of suffering. His leads his heroes and heroines always suffer. The Ugly Duckling gets frozen in water, the Little Mermaid feels as if she is walking on knives (or broken glass); the Marsh King’s Daughter is transformed into a frog, the little Match Girl freezes to death, the money pig breaks, the storks deliver dead babies. Andersen’s characters seem to suffer far more than those people in the Grimm’s tales (though that isn’t a cake walk either). Andersen, however, is still a considered a children’s author because of the tone, his use of sound (read his tales aloud if you don’t believe me), of putting himself in a child’s shoes (who doesn’t imagine the flowers coming to life).
Too often people look at Andersen in the simplest terms. This is very clear in most of the adaptions of “The Little Mermaid”. Most people are more familiar with the Disney version of the story or the Disney inspired adaptions than the actual original. This is a pity for Anderson’s short story is far deeper and more potent than the insipid love story that makes up the Disney fare. In Anderson’s original, the little mermaid does seem to have a love or a desire to be human. Unlike the Disney version which takes a far more acquiring view, Anderson’s mermaid wants to be human so she can get a soul. The only way for her to get a soul is to marry the prince and his love will led to her gaining half his soul, which will than grow. While the Mermaid may feel something for the prince, it is not her driving passion, her driving passion is to get the soul.
The Sea Witch is also different in the short story than in the Disney movie. In the movie, she is far more dangerous, far more deadly. She is fat and ugly; she is old. She wants to subvert the natural order. In the movie, while the Sea Witch is not as friendly as the mermaid’s grandmother, she is not evil per se. There is darkness in her, but it does not seem to be an evil darkness. In many ways, you could say that the witch functions as a darker aid figure. She is after the mermaid’s voice, but she doesn’t regnage on the deal and strikes terms. She isn’t double dealing.
The prince too is different in the story. At best, he treats the mermaid in her human form as a dog. She is his companion, she sleeps at his dog. At worst, he uses her. He plays with her emotions. He says he will marry her if he can’t find his true love. He does not think of her feelings. He lacks compassion.
And compassion is something that the little mermaid has. Compassion is something thather sisters have, for they sacrifice their hair to save their sister. The mermaid herself sacrifice her life to save a man who did not think of her and who married someone else without a thought for her.
In fact, in Anderson’s tale, the merfolk are the ones that exhibit human traits. Compassion. Forgivness. The human prince, the only true example of humanity in the story shows an uncaring thoughtfulness. Anderson in some ways is the little mermaid as much as he is the Ugly Duckling. If Andersen spent his life trying to gain acceptatance by the upper class, to belong to the Collin family, to use du with Edvard Collin, in many ways he was trying to gain something that his heroes were born into. The prince is born with a soul. Edvard Collin is born with class. Andersen is born with determination in much the little mermaid is. She determines to experience life beyond the ocean. She wants life beyond foam on the waves. Andersen wanted more than life in Odenese, than to be the simple shoemaker’s son that he was. The mermaid wants a soul. Andersen wants to social class.
“The Little Mermaid” is hardly the only tale of Andersen’s to deal with class. Even a tale based solidly in folklore, such as ‘The Tinderbox” has its class struggle. In this tale, famous for its big eyed dogs, a lowly solider who constantly forgots his magical aid and who exhibits the characteristic of a child is responsisble for the overthrowing of a royal couple who has imprisioned their daughter. While the story contains the ancient motif of a princess either marrying or giving birth to someone who be responsible for the overthrow of her father, the story also ends with the death of her parents, and her marrying the murderer. It is possible that in some way the tale is a nod to the poltical situtuion a generation before Andersen, where the wife of the mad king tried to gain control of the country along with her lover, who was executated after a successful coup.
The Little Mermaid is concerned with class in some of the ways that Andersen’s other stories. Yet in the mermaid’s story, class isn’t social standing but has to do with heart. The prince and themermaid are revelatity equal in terms of social standing, yet the prince has the soul. The mermaid, however, has the compassion and the caring that ht eprince seems to lack, even if her goal is just as selflish sas the prince. The Mermaid trans


Many of Andersen’s tales are concerned with relationships, in particular those of mothers and children. Many critics have discovered or argued for the presence of Andersen’s own relationship with his mother in these tales. Andersen’s mother, who gave birth to a bastard daughter before marrying Andersen’s father, comes off looking less like a saint and more like a drunk if this is true. But then, there is a tale like “She Was a Good for Nothing” where the mother is a drunk who dearly loves and cares for her son. In this story, Andersen contrasts public view versus private life, of how the upper class views the lower class.
Andersen is often concerned with class in his tales. The upper classes tend to be dismissive of the lower classes, though it is the lower classes that exhibit more of those human virtues. Sometimes, like in “The Tinderbox”, Andersen even seems to attack the royalty, seemingly suggesting that the old order must give to the new. Even in his class stories, Andersen also shows a great love and knowledge of his country. Some of his stories are about the humble beginnings of Great Danes (no, not the dogs) like Thorvaldsen, whose work Andersen seemed to love if Andersen’s stories are anything to go by. It should also be noted that in some of stories, especially in stories where different classes of children met, Andersen suggests more of equality than out and out class warfare.
Andersen’s stories aren’t all for children; in fact, as he wrote more stories, Andersen saw himself as writing more for adults and this would example the class conscious stories, but also the longer stories like “The Ice Maiden” or “Ib and Little Christine”. It is in the longer stories that one can see the German romantic influence on Andersen. While the tales are more adult, they also consider several of the same themes that inhabit his more child friendly stories. While “Ib and Little Christine” can be rather annoying if you are female reader, it is impossible to describe the creeping feeling of unease that stories such as “The Ice Maiden” and “The Shadow” inspire.
Andersen borrowed from more than his grandmother and the Germans. His “The Rose Elf” presents a revenge minded “Pot of Basil”, a twist on a familiar tale presented by Boccaccio but also used by Keats among others. Andersen’s variation of the “Seven Swans” makes far more sense than other versions, even if it is chaster than those other versions.
Andersen’s most famous story might be “The Ugly Duckling”, a story that many critics, rightly it seems, consider to be Andersen’s most autobiographical work. This isn’t to say that the similar theme of belonging, of fitting in, doesn’t appear in other works. There are shades of “Duckling” in “Thumbelina” as well as some of the class conscious Andersen short stories. “The Ugly Duckling” is more memorable because the plot of the story could happen. The plot of “Thumbelina”, not so much. We believe in the duckling becoming the swan because of the way Andersen sets up the story – a mistake could happen. Today, even with all our supposed advancements, you still have hospital mix ups.
In most of Andersen’s stories, the reader can meet actual places and people that Andersen knew or admired. Edvard Collin, Andersen’s man crush, appears, as does Jenny Lind. Even smaller characters in Andersen’s history, less well known to the average reader, seem to appear. Andersen’s teachers, the women Andersen felt rejected him (or whom Andersen allowed himself to be rejected by); all seem to appear. Copenhagen is a time honored companion in the stories, but so is Andersen’s love of Italy. This sense of place gives another level of reality to the tales, a level that seems to be missing from the works of the Grimms or Perrault.
While many of Andersen’s tales have “morals” or lessons, they are not spelled out as in the work of Aesop or Fontatine. Andersen respects his reader, be that reader a child or an adult, and knows that his reader can follow his lesson without the moral being directly spelled out. Perhaps it is this reason that examines Andersen’s staying power even among, or especially among, female readers.
For Andersen’s female characters do seem to get punished at far steeper rate than his male characters. While it is true that the Ugly Duckling freezes, his end is far different than those ends of the girls in “The Little Match Girl”, “The Red Shoes” or “The Girl Who Trod on a Loaf”. To say that Andersen was sexist would be a mistake. Even in stories where the girl is horribly punished there are good women – the grandmother, the girl who prays for Karen. More importantly, one of Andersen’s most famous stories, “The Snow Queen” presents two strong willed girls, one of whom keeps her independence; another of women is helped by more women than man when she quests to save her childhood fan who also is perhaps her adult love or husband.
The statue of the Little Mermaid, which just recently had its birthday, in many ways, is a fitting and unfitting memorial to Andersen. Like Andersen himself, the statue has survived various attempts to deface it. Andersen faults against those who mocked him, who tried to educate the imagination out of him, or who ignored him because of his class. He survived the fact that he would not be able to fulfill his first dream, to be a dancer. The statue of the mermaid has overcome beheadings, defacing, and veils to still exist as a tourist attraction. But like the works of Andersen’s own works, few people who see the statue know true story of the character the statue is based on, few know the story of the statue itself or of the Kasslett located nearby. Fewer know that it is not the only statue in Copenhagen depicting a merperson that has connection to Andersen (he wrote a story based on the Forsake Merman). Perhaps it is this sense of mystery that keeps Andersen’s popularity. We are introduced to him at two points in our lives. The first time when we are children. The second time when we are older, perhaps after seeing the statue or reading a story to a child. We can have two different readings of Andersen, the man and his work.

Chris wrote:
Several critics have pointed out that Andersen has a cult of suffering. His leads his heroes and heroines always suffer. ..."

Okay now you’ve made me curious Chris!
I must admit that as a child of all the fairy tales I liked Andersen's the least because the characters so often suffered only to have unhappy endings as well. As a grown up reading them to my son I found them depressing. My son hated the Ugly Duckling! I remember he pounded his little fists on the book after the ending! I usually rush off and get the tales when there was a discussion but I did not this time.
I have not read any of the grown up tales and it has been a while since I’ve read the children’s, so now I think I will!

:)

Can you re-read the Little Mermaid and tell me what you think? There is something fishy about that tale

(sorry for the puns).

Chris, there's much interesting commentary in your post. Thanks!

I think it's possible to read "The Little Mermaid" as feminist in its conclusion. The heroine first tries to gain a soul vicariously, through the love of a man, but finds she can't rely on him for her life. Instead, she sublimates her erotic love into universal love and begins to gain a soul through her own work & benevolent actions toward humanity. In the end, she will have her own soul, her own self, not a second-hand identity derived from relationship to a more entitled male character.

Yes, the ending is strange. It is not satisfying. Although it is sad, it is not the fact that she does not get her happily ever after with her prince, but instead gets a soul, that I find weird, rather the way she becomes an air spirit and gets one days less before she goes to heaven if she passes the room of a good child and gets one day more if she passes the room of a bad child!

Jalilah,
I think the original ending didn't include the final chapter. It ended with her disolving into foam.

I'm not sure which version of the ending is stranger.

So, may as well resurrect an existing discussion rather than start a new one on the same book.

How much of a difference does the translator make on Andersen's books?

I have a really nice paperback edition of the complete tales -- in fact, the edition used on the group read last year -- but it's too bulky to carry everywhere.

Would I regret using just the Project Gutenberg e-book edition for whatever stories are there, and then using the paperback edition for any the ebook leaves out?
The Gutenberg edition I'm looking at is here: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/27200

(

I'm not a translator, so this is coming from the presepective of reader and some who has done some annotations on the tales.

Supposedly, Tiina Nunnally's translations are supposed to be very good. When I was doing annotation work there, the Hunt translation tended to be the most simplstic. She uses shouldered arms where other translations will use rifle or musket.

Sometimes the tranlsation is important - the difference between brave and steadfast. But the Grimm tales seem to have more problems with translation.

Okay, good.

Mine is the yellow trade paperback translated by Erik Christian Haugaard. I really want to read it, but I keep putting it off because it's not portable. I figure any decent translation is better than nothing at all...

I was mostly worried of seeing issues like with the Grimms tales - with large portions removed from the stories or big changes made.

That Gutenberg link is the version I tried to start a few months ago, and because I'd only read a handful of Andersen stories in the past I was pretty much unprepared for the "continuous suffering" thing. I found that while I can normally do multiple folktales at a sitting with any other author/culture/etc. I'm going to have to ration my Andersen or I'll end up depressed. (Of course now that I look back at the stories I had read - yeah, not a lot of happy endings there. Should not have been a surprise.)

Do we have any translator named for the Gutenberg version? (I couldn't find on in it, but I may have missed it.) There's a 1908 Lippincott version here, but no translator listed either:
http://openlibrary.org/works/OL150494...
(nice images though, and you can download it from that link)

I'm now somewhat curious as to whether the translation could make a difference in to how much that suffering is emphasized (or how "inspirational" it might be, maybe?), but I'm thinking that would dominate the stories, no matter what.

The most commonly used copyright expired edition is the Hunt, which is considered the weakest.

The Guttenberg is not Hunt's translation. Surlalunefairytales.com has Hunt. Hunt's edition starts with The Tinderbox.

So, I'm VERY slowly making my way through this. Turns out I have the Hunt edition after all, so I may as well just use any e-book and page my way through the real book for the illustrations whenever I'm at home.

Looking at a couple of translations online, it looks like quite a few have more or less the same order of stories, because they're printed in chronological order which is a pretty logical way to arrange them.

So, a couple of observations here...

First, it's a whole lot more religious than I was expecting. Confirmations have played key roles in several stories, characters explicitly pray to God or attend church and where the Brothers Grimm might send in a fairy godmother to work magic, Andersen sends in an angel to work a miracle for God. And dying and going to heaven seems to be just as valid a happy ending for him as the "and they lived happily ever after."

Second, the stories are a bit more whimsical than other traditional tales. Where other collections are more quest oriented - traveling to gain riches, defeating evil witches, etc - Andersen's seem to be as often about a discarded toy or object - a broken darning needle, a toy soldier missing a leg, a Christmas tree tossed aside after the big day - these all have gotten their own stories while I've yet to come across an evil witch or a fairy godmother!

Last, to reiterate what Chris said in the beginning -- OMG, YES, a "culture of suffering" describes it perfectly. I think Andersen has something against "happily ever after." The closest he's gotten so far is "and they lived happily until they died." Look at his final sentence about two china dolls that loved each other: "And so the little china people remained together, and were glad of the grandfather’s rivet, and continued to love each other 'till they were broken to pieces."

I wonder if this ties back to his Christian themes? Because, in his mind, you can't have eternal happiness on Earth, only in heaven?

I think, considering his life, that he was unhappy for much of his life. So I think you are right, Melanti. It does have to do with suffering.

And because they are such simple objects, they tie into the everyday. You can have a top, a needle or what not.

Christine, thanx for your thoughtful and informative overview on Andersen's oeuvre. The historical connections and autobiographical ones you pointed out are most interesting. I do have a biography of him, and so I recognized your references to Jenny Lind and Edward, but I did not know that there are fictionalized versions of them in his tales? Do you know which ones? I do know that The Ice Maiden has a particularly morbid biographical inspiration: Andersen's mother broke the news of his father's death to him by saying, "The Ice Maiden got him." Yeeech! Thanks mom! Maybe that explains a LOT about the unique darkness of the Andersen brand of fairy tale.

The Nightingale is usually seen as Lind, and Edward appears in Ugly Duckling.

Thanks Christine! Very interesting info, given how smitten he was with both of them.