philosophy, psychology and other long words beginning with p. discussion

The Lichen's chapter serves as a springboard for the girls' journey. Hope you enjoy!

I may not have a change to really do the reading I would like until the week of July 12th when I have a few days off in a row.

Not a problem. I'm not going anywhere. Also, this chapter is the sample chapter on the website: http://ancientcanada.com/Ancient_Cana... which I chose for many reasons. It really describes Lavender's gift, it gives us a chance to meet the girls and get to know their personalities, it has a pretty detailed physical description of the girls, the narrator is a bit of a hermit so it doesn't have any spoilers, it begins the girls' journey, a lot of past readers had really fond memories of the character who narrates, and if a reader only gets a chance to read one chapter, let it be the one based not on my philosophy or opinions, but one based on St. Francis of Assisi. If I haven't mentioned it before, he's been a huge influence on me, this book, and this character is based on him.

I love St. Francis of Assisi, which may be one reason the book resonates so much with me!

Me too! I have a cousin who is a Franciscan out in California. He recommended a biography by Donald Spoto called 'Relucant Saint: the Life of Francis of Assisi.' I loved it. There are tons of books about Francis, and I haven't read but this one, so I can't speak for the others. But Spoto is a first tier biographer. The book discusses how Francis would walk barefoot, in the snow, because not everybody owned sandals. If he had a pair, he would give them away to someone who needed them. To me that means more than being credited with a miracle.

Near the end of page 68. Pretty fascinating. I love personification! And this is a most unique approach as his consciousness was gradual.

Thank you! If I remember right, the Lichen would be about 2,500 years old when we're reading his chapter. He gave me a chance to go through the history of the region, with animals, then cave-men-like hunters, druid-like communities, traveling merchants, up to the present.

I finished this morning between reading Happy Birthday wishes to me on facebook. :)

Happy birthday! Thanks for posting the next chapter's thread (orphan boy). I'm working on the behind the scenes for the Lichen... it'll probably be a couple days, unless I can squeeze it in tomorrow.

Okay, I squeezed it in today. I'll work on the next chapter soon, the Orphan Boy. As always, thanks for reading! I'll have to break this up into multiple sections just because of a Goodreads post limit.


Lichen’s Encounter – Behind the Scenes

This is the chapter I chose for the sample on ancientcanada.com, picked for several reasons. There’s no spoilers, it has a physical description of the girls, it’s the start of their epic, and it does a good job explaining Lavender’s gift. But most of all, Lichen is based off Saint Francis of Assisi. So if a potential reader only reads one chapter of the book, the sample on the website, let it be the one based on Francis’ beliefs, not mine.

My cousin is a Franciscan out in California, and I’ve read a little bit about Francis (we highly recommend “Reluctant Saint: the Life of Francis of Assisi,” by Donald Spoto, which was originally recommended to me by my Franciscan cousin). I also went to a Franciscan church for a few years before we moved.

So I’m not an expert, but I do love Franciscan thought, have drawn a great deal of inspiration from Francis, and I do know he was about so much more than just loving squirrels and chipmunks. He was extremely devoted to the poor, and he was very intelligent. He took on the suffering of the poor to relieve them. His peaceful philosophy is about understanding and tolerance, and not viewing anybody but yourself as your enemy. That’s just scratching the surface, because it gets a lot more intricate than “peace and love.” And it works. His philosophy has a lineage of inspiration, almost a pedigree of influencing famous (and effective) historical figures. It had a great deal of influence on Tolstoy, then Gandhi, and Gandhi in turn had a great influence on Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

However, at first the Lichen wasn’t based on Francis, or anybody in particular. I started to look at what purpose his chapter was to serve, and that was to provide a springboard of beliefs to launch the girls’ journey. Then I started to think about what my overall themes were in the book, and the biggest ones were environmental and justice issues. Whose philosophies would be better to use therefore than Francis, patron of the environment, champion of justice issues? Borrowing Franciscan themes was a whole lot easier than coming up with my own new set to base a character on. I didn’t plan for it all to fit so well, and started writing before I knew what philosophies I was going to use for the Lichen. Everything lined up nicely, but by pure dumb luck.

The girls were raised under Polaris’ society, then exiled from it. So what does that do to their faith? What should they believe? The chapter immediately following their exile (the Lichen’s) was going to give them this direction. At first they don’t even know what to do or where to go next. They’re exiled from York, but they’re allowed to wander uninhabited Canada. It’s not like they need to get in the water and swim to Svalbard. So they’re wandering around, just looking for food, and they stumble across the Lichen’s clearing. By the end of the chapter, they’ve adopted a new belief system. They’ve also got a purpose they can feel good about. They’ve been rejected, after all. So naturally they’d want to do something to rebuild their sense of purpose. They come up with the idea for a field guide, called ‘The Aliments of Life and Death.’

(Side note- in an attempt to make the book’s language sound archaic, I avoided using certain words. One of them was ‘food.’ It’s pretty difficult to write without using that word, but that’s why their book is called ‘The Aliments of Life and Death.’ Aliments replaces the word food. As much as I edited the book to death, I missed one ‘food.’ I used the word once in the book. I shouldn’t have; all you have to do is hit control-f, type ‘food,’ hit ‘find next,’ and you’ll find it. It’s in another chapter, but I had already done most of my editing when I made that late change, and just missed one. Whoops.)

So the field guide is their new purpose, and why they won’t stay and settle in the Lichen’s clearing. Using Lavender’s gift and Marigold’s artistic ability, they’ll make a field guide of everything edible and poisonous found in nature. Not a bad plan. We’ll see how that goes.

Back to the Lichen. Francis had a few catch phrases he was known for, like greeting strangers on the road with, “Peace and all good.” That phrase is developed throughout the chapter, with Marigold providing the original inspiration. “Yes, peace! Love! Happiness! And all good! Just do not harm us!” Then, at the end of the chapter, the Lichen narrates that he will great strangers in the future with “Peace and all good.” This is quite a change from feeling like he needs to act like a monster to scare away travelers before they eat poisoned berries. Although Lavender and Marigold get a fresh start from the Lichen, he gets a fresh start from them as well. After this chapter, he’ll be able to meet passers-by and speak with them peacefully.

Also, if you notice, the intro to the entire book, even before the map and the table of contents, is just one page with “Peace and all good, Marigold.” That was my editor’s idea, which I loved. I thought she really nailed it when she thought of that.

Besides “Peace and all good,” Francis used ‘brother this’ and ‘sister that,’ even when talking about things like wind or death. I incorporated that as well. Deciding what was masculine and what was feminine was pretty arbitrary for me. Is it “brother son” or “sister sun?” Who cares. That’s what I decided when I got to the crowned elk. I could say “sister bird,” but then I got to the crowned elk and specifically talked about the bucks and the does. I couldn’t say “sister buck,” so I just decided not to sweat it too much.

As for the Lichen himself, it may be a little confusing understanding his self-description. Polaris claims to have come from the brightest star in the sky. Lichen actually is a large asteroid that fell from the sky about 2,500 years prior to what we’re reading. So already we’re creating a comparison, almost a competition, between Polaris and Lichen. (This is epitomized when the girls recite the Polarian quatrain. The quatrain says, essentially, when you disagree with someone don’t listen to them or they might poison your thoughts. The Franciscan view sees this as a breakdown of communication and understanding, and therefore a breakdown in peace and charity.) The asteroid landed, shattering, but creating a crater. Slowly a dry fungus started growing on these space rocks. A lichen in nature is a symbiotic organism that grows on rocks. Okay, so this fungus grows and grows slowly as the Lichen develops consciousness. He’s a series of stones covered with this fungus, which holds the stones together like a network of tendons or strings. He’d be about 25 feet tall, humanlike looking, but because he left his crater before the legs could develop, he has no legs. No particular reason that I can remember for denying him legs. If you’re picturing one of the heads from Easter Island, you’re on the right track.

He describes the period of sunlight and the period of darkness. Remember that way up north, you get long days in the summer and long nights in the winter. Depending on how far north, you may not see the sun every day in winter, or you may only get a glimpse on the horizon. Eventually hurricanes come his way (yes, hurricanes) and fill his crater with water; now it’s a lake. This attracts the crowned elk, a species which is probably extinct by the time Lavender and Marigold show up. The Lichen experiences cave men/nomads hunting the elk, then occultists (I just had druids in my mind), traveling merchants, and eventually Lavender and Marigold. The occultists are mentioned as the Lichen describes Lavender and Marigold’s physical appearances. He probably gives the most detailed physical descriptions of them. Lavender dresses somewhat goth while Marigold is bright and flamboyant. They’re both petite, and about 5’3” or 5’4”. They have different complexions and very different styles. One reason I had the Lichen give the most detailed descriptions of them is that he’s not human. Even if it’s kindof late in the book (Heather gives a brief physical description early on), I didn’t want to ever say or indicate whether these girls are good looking or not. I think that introduces a certain anxiety to the book no matter which way I go with that. So I let a non-human, non-sexual creature describe them. Lavender wears wooden shoes, which in her world would be practical working on a farm through mud and manure. Marigold wouldn’t be caught dead in clunky wooden shoes. Lavender wears a dark cloak, which takes on an importance in a later chapter. It’s sort of a comfort-garment for her. It’s where she can hide when the weight of her gift is too much. It becomes her shadow, but for now it’s just part of the look. Her clasp around the cloak was a pewter image of Ellie, her faithful tollimore that played a role in Heather and the Grandfather’s chapters. Lichen mistakes this look for an occultist, which just about makes Marigold burst at the seams laughing.

I’ll be jumping around a lot for the rest of this one:

-Lichen narrates, “I believe at some point in the evolution of the human’s language, ‘stewardship’ devolved into a word understood now as ‘dominion.’” There’s a famous line in Genesis about man having ‘dominion’ over the animals. I’ve heard that (there’s a school of thought out there at least that) the original meaning of the untranslated word was closer to stewardship than dominion. That’s a huge difference, whether the animals are there for our sake or whether we’re to care for them. Lichen of course prefers the stewardship thought.

-There’s a joke:
“That... may... be... but... he’s... made... of... stone.”
“Yes and so are you, apparently,” said Marigold to her sister.
This joke will appear two more times just like this, only the word ‘stone’ changes to fit the situation.

-The terms ‘right and good’ and ‘wrong and bad’ appear throughout the book as they’re sorting out edible and inedible mushrooms. This was an inside joke with my wife and me. It’s all in the delivery; I’d ask her, “How’s the ice cream?” She’d do a voice that would sound like she’s from Old Salem or Colonial Williamsburg, “Right and good, right and good.” Unless it wasn’t, then she’d say, “It’s wrong… and baaaaaad.”

-This chapter happens probably around June. I figure Marigold’s birthday to be sometime in July, and in the next chapter, within a few days of this chapter, she mentions almost being seventeen. Because of the latitude and time of year, there’s very little darkness during the day. Much of this chapter (the parts with the girls in it) happens over night, but it’s not pitch black out. It’s more twilight for a few hours, then the sun comes up and stays up most of the day.

-There’s a small tool they describe, which was a remnant from a large bird creature who died overhead and fell down into the Lichen’s clearing. The large bird creature is a Feathermen, and we’ll see more of them later. A long time ago, one was flying overhead, got caught in a storm, and crashed into the clearing. He had a tool which the Lichen, Lavender, and Marigold can’t really figure out. It has N, E, W, and S on the face with a swiveling needle. It’s a compass but they don’t know that. When the Lichen holds it, the needle just spins around. When the girls hold it, the needle doesn’t do that. They don’t know what it is, but Marigold jokingly calls it a ‘man finder.’ We’ll hear more about this tool later, when we meet the Feathermen.

-Finally, here’s a teaser to close with. I can’t get too into explaining this, but here’s a section to keep in mind as we read the rest of the book. It’s a conversation between Lavender and Marigold.

She laughed, “So you have met my ancestors. They probably believed themselves modern and contemporary. Few realize themselves to be living in both Ancient Canada and its distant future, or any country for that matter. Had I lived then, however, they would not have given me a spear. I would have been given a paintbrush and told to decorate the caves... and I would have painted some windows.”

“And if you lived in the distant future?” I asked.

“I do! By their reference, at least.”

I may not read all of this at one time. It's deep and cool. I Not hating your enemies takes on a whole new meaning! I didn't know his influence on some of the great contemporary leaders was so great.

Thanks. Originally I didn't realize he had sort of a secular inspiration pattern, but a lot it has to do with the passive resistance Gandhi and MLK were famous for. Tolstoy went a different direction, with something called Christian Anarchy, which was a movement in his time, not entirely influenced by Francis. The idea behind Christian Anarchy is that all governments use force or the threat of force (and policemen carry, guns, etc.) to keep order. They believed Christianity does not allow for this, and they may be right in that Christ said 'turn the other cheek,' and would not have killed anybody for any reason. They believe you cannot support a government that does this (if you're Christian), and since all governments do this, you can't support any government. To be Christian is to be an anarchist. I follow the logic, but bringing it all into reality seems like you'll wind up violating some other Christian (and general common sense) principles along the way. To me, it also reeks of a bunch of well-educated semi-noblemen sitting around theorizing this stuff while the real world is on the other side of town.

That is very interesting about the philosophies of Tolstoy's time that is sadly in start contrast to the atrocities committed by Stalin. I am not sure how many years were in between but will research for personal knowledge shortly. If we were all angels, we probably would not need government. I seem to recall waiting for a bus in high school and contemplating whether anarchy would be a good society. I usually didn't think much on that subject. I do believe we have to surrender individual freedoms at time for the greater good of society. In turn, a good government should protect our liberties.

Yeah, I agree. I can't picture anarchy existing alongside reality, order, and potholes in the road actually getting fixed.

Tolstoy was second half of the 1800's for the most part, but he lived a long time. Died in 1910 before the revolution, even before WW1. After Anna Karenina, his later work drifted into his religious beliefs. He abandoned his belongings and family at a very old age, and died almost on the way out the door (at a train station I believe). There's a picture of his wife looking into a building where he's dying, because she wasn't welcome inside (his wishes). I don't know... sounds like he missed the point of selflessness when he gave the family the metaphorical middle finger. But hey, I wasn't there.

Okay, one thing I forgot to mention about the Lichen. This is me speculating on my own memory. I didn't give the Lichen legs, and I think I remember why. I didn't want him walking around because he's going to be the magnetic north pole. This won't make much sense until later in the book, but there's the magnetic north pole and the true north pole. Santa Claus is true north, right under the north star (aka Polaris). The axis of the earth spins under the true north pole. But the magnetic north pole is a concentration of the earth's magnetic field. If you have a compass, as seen in this chapter, it won't lead you to Santa Claus. It'll lead you to the magnetic north, which drifts over time. Currently it's somewhere in Canada. Pilots up there have to be aware of this, because navigation on a traditional compass can get tricky. You could actually be flying north while the compass is reading south (if you're north of magnetic north but not yet at true north). Okay, hopefully that made some sense. But another thing is that the Northern Lights (aka Celestial Lights in Ancient Canada, which I changed because I thought they wouldn't call them the Northern Lights if nobody lives south of the Arctic) are concentrated around magnetic north. Historians can estimate the location of magnetic north throughout past centuries by studying folklore. There are periods where, surprisingly, there's no mention of the Northern Lights in Scandinavian folklore. Today the Northern Lights can be seen in Norway, and often are. Magnetic North drifts, but very slowly, hence the Lichen can't do much traveling and still be able to represent it. So no legs. It was another moment in writing where I had to ask, "Oh, boy, how am I going to cover up my tracks on this one?" Again, this will all matter later in the book, but not right now.

My dad read Anna Karenina about a year ago. I've just read his very easy to read Short Story. It's so hard to say at life's end as a person may be low on oxygen and reason. My dad wants me to get him War and Peace and if I do, I might read. But I'm not sure.

Hmmmn The Magnetic north pole.

It's funny because back in high school, if there was a movie for an assigned book, like The Good Earth, we'd rent it. War and Peace, as long as it is, actually has a movie made for it. Well, several, I think. But the one I'm thinking of aired in several parts in the Soviet Union in the late 60's and and was funded by the state. I heard somewhere that if you scale it for inflation and time period, it would still be the most expensive movie ever made. In today's money, I think it would cost over a billion US dollars. When I tried to watch it, I was surprised that for all that money, the sound quality would go in and out from okay to very poor. I think all in all it was about 10 hours, but the production value was very very much beneath what it should have been even for the time. So I guess they should have spent more money on it.

I don't think they needed to spend more money from what you said. It sounds like they needed to spend their money more wisely. Unless it was the reproduction that wrecked the sound. The Good Earth is special to me as I found out after I read it that my Grandmother who had passed away a few years prior to my reading it felt it was one of her favorite books. We sometimes watched the movies with the book, but I don' think I have seen that.

I watched Rick's Steve's Europe yesterday and they went to the Assisi, Italy. They showed the chapel in the chapel where I believe Assisi formed his Holy Order. They also showed the Basilica where he was buried. There is a lot of commercialism there. However, you can still get a sense St. Francis. I learned how he helped reformed the Church and was beloved in his own time. Some people our not appreciated in their own time. It really was beautiful to see.

I still need to go to Italy, but I'm not sure how I'd do it. So many towns with so many different identities, all over the country.

I just ordered a 12-lecture course on Francis. I ordered it from the 'Great Courses' catalog. 12 lectures is short; most courses are 24-36 lectures (about 35 minutes each). And it was on sale for about $10 instead of the typical $25-30. I love the Great Courses stuff. I'm just about sick of every song in my cd collection, so the Great Courses are a nice way to feel like I'm not completely wasting time when I'm on the road, which happens not often, but does happen.

Francis I think still has the record for the fastest canonization after his death, or at least did at the time. And the Franciscans group grew so fast in Francis' time that they started to move on without him, before he even died. They wanted to write down more and more guidelines; Francis just wanted to follow the Gospel and live simply.

At least that's what I remember from 'Reluctant Saint, the life of Francis of Assis,' by Donald Spoto. That book was a big part of what got me started being inspired by Franciscan thought.

I wanted to ask you if you had a book to recommend. Thanks! Also, I have bought some Great Course's programs. It's good to know they have a series about St. Francis.

Which ones have you listened to? I did the mythology one while writing this, but didn't use it too much for the story. Although it did remind me about Hercules' 12 labors, which I modified down to 5, for Heather's chapter. Instead of the Hydra or Cerberus, she had tall grass and mooseflies. But Hercules was a half-god, while Heather was about 11 months pregnant. Okay, maybe 9.

There are probably thousands of books written on Francis. I've only read the one but I'd highly recommend it. It was originally a recommendation from my cousin, a Franciscan in California.

Then there's Franco Zeffirelli's film Brother Sun, Sister Moon. I've always thought he did great work as a director, and this movie I thought still had the inspiration that comes with Francis, but it was a little odd. For one, it made Francis and Clare about the same age. I think they were really about 18 years apart. And it really only dealt with a short period in Francis' life, after he came back from war, very sick, after being a prisoner for a while (malaria survivor?). It started there and went to the point where he met with the pope to found his order. I don't think it's on the level with his better work, though, like Romeo and Juliet or Jesus of Nazareth. Spoto's book covers the whole life very well, I thought.

Well, I have one on understanding poetry and another on writing one sentence at a time. We have yet to listen to one about the apostle Paul. If money were no object, I would probably buy out most of their catalog!

Oh, yeah! And time, too, which is always in short supply. I think I'd like the one on Paul. I did one on the New Testament, which was good. But the mythology and New Testament ones were Christmas presents from 2009 that I just finished.

I know what you mean about their catalog. I just looked through and had way too many I wanted to get. I had to go through several times and trim the list down to four. Fortunately since I spent $100, I got $20 off. Which got tacked back on for shipping. Still a pretty good deal. Then I texted my wife, "You just bought me my Christmas present."

One is about managing personal finances. Ugh. Not looking forward to it, but I guess it's time to be a grown up. That way I can go back to the next one, "Life Lessons from History's Greatest Myths." And another one that studies the psychology of religion. I think it's even a neuroscience now. They said it was a new field, studying the way the brain is wired for worship.

You sound very well-rounded. It's good that your wife got you just what you wanted. :) I don't know if I mentioned that I never subscribed to the Great Course's catalog. People complain about junk mail. I think it is a good thing if you learn about a product of interest. Plus, you can toss what you don't like or recycle. Some places go overboard and send the same over and over. Well, Great Courses is kind of bad that way. Of all the catalogs, it's the one you can learn the most reading just the catalog itself.

You hit the nail on the head... I made my order very recently and have already received two catalogs in the mail. And about 5 emails.

My mother-in-law shares some of the courses with me when we're done, and she's said the same thing. You were smart to avoid getting the catalog. If this goes on too long, I'm probably going to have to call them. "Think of the trees!" I'll tell them.

However, like you suggested, I really enjoy flipping through the catalog. I wish I could turn my brain into a Mac and just upload the information. Actually... nah, I like listening to them because it prevents the feeling of wasted time on long car rides alone.

While I never ordered the catalog, I was happy they sent the first one as I never heard of them. I don't know if I ever gave my email, but know I don't currently receive emails. I would like it if they didn't pile the catalogs one after another. But I would like to get one every few months.

Yeah, that'd be perfect. Once every few months. I didn't need two identical catalogs in the first week right after making an order (an order I placed using a catalog).

'Tis the season I guess.

I just got a third catalog in the mail yesterday. I had to call them and have a friendly chat about what they're doing to the trees in Bolivia. Well, that was the subtext at least. I just asked them not to send me so many catalogs (three in about two weeks). They took me off the list, so I guess I won't get any, but I just wanted them to scale it back to about twice a year. Oh well. I can always call and request one if I need.

It's too bad they can do happy medium very well