Reading the Chunksters discussion

OOps...I thought this was the break week, glad I double checked the schedule! How's everyone liking this section?

I loved this section.

First of all, I would love to see both Drawligh and Lascelles get what I feel should be coming to them. I wonder if this will be a turning point in the Norrell-Strange relationship. I have no doubt that Strange intends to punish them both, but I wonder if Norrell won't be able to committ to punishing two people he relies on so much, since Norrell has such a weak character.

We also saw Mr. Thistledown's involvement escalate. The fact that Arabella has been talking to him makes me very nervous for her. I dont think that Thistledown is a necessarily malicious character, I just don't think that the Faeries see good/evil in the same way that humans (and as the author presents it) do. Stealing people away to his kingdom isn't meant to be cruel, and he simply doesn't see it as wrong.

In fact, the more that we get to know Thistledown and the other Faeries, the more I agree with Norrell that they may be too untrustworthy to work with. Unfortunately that didn't stop Norrell.

And I believe that we are starting to see Strange fulfill his part of the prophecy. "29 The second shall tread lonely roads, the storm above his head, seeking a dark tower upon a high hillside." I think this is referring to his discovery of the highway between mirrors.
"

Becky wrote: "I loved this section.

First of all, I would love to see both Drawligh and Lascelles get what I feel should be coming to them. I wonder if this will be a turning point in the Norrell-Strange relati..."

I feel the same - the plot line is getting stronger, and I can finally see the interplay between the characters. The two leeches and socialites (Drawlight and Lascelle) have decided to 'milk' Mr. Strange, and I hope this will not be left unpunished.

It was also interesting to observe the overwhelming effect of the otherworldly magic and how Mr. Strange tried to fight for himself and the mad King. He is definitely a noble man, but his attitude towards women as inferior beings is slightly off-putting. I understand that his rude words were caused by this mysterious gentleman with the thistle-down hair, but there is something discouraging in this XIX century attitude towards women. I do hope he redeemed himself by envisioning Arabella safeguarding his heart in his counter-magic spell.

On the other hand, chapter 36 is one of the most hilarious chapters ever! My statement might sound preposterous, taking into account that the darker side of the humanity was explored (Mrs. Bullworth - a beautiful example of a speaking name), but her image is so memorable and grotesque in its villainous nature, so bigger than life that I could not help recalling the evil characters created by Charles Dickens. She definitely has a meticulous and evil spark in her - the list with the tortures and punishments for every person she hates is equally and paradoxically repulsive and uproarious! Although Mrs. Bullworth is somewhat a Dickenesque character, the style of this chapter is Austenesque! (Please, excuse my esqueness:-) LOL) It is a brilliant example of irony, wit, elegance, and verbal eloquence.

To tell the truth, I have already read two more chapters and I am planning to read more - the book is quite engrossing. With the upcoming break I will have to keep the book journal:-)

I think you (it may have been someone else) had mentioned before that it was odd the way Strange treated women as inferior.

I really do not see his treatment of Arabella that way. I think anyone would naturally be jealous having been away from their wife for three years and coming home to here her speak of some marvellous person. But perhaps I read it as more light-hearted banter than other people read it, especially since at that time he was just staring at her, trying to get his fill after having been gone for so long. I thought that it was entirely sweet that he gave Arabella his, and the King's, heart to protect. I think that he really loves her, I just think he treats everyone as kind of a distraction to him. I mean, he probably wouldnt have even settled on a profession of magic if it hadnt been to find some way to convince Arabella to marry him.

And I worry that "his greatest treasure in the hand of his enemy" means that somehow Arabella will be trapped by Thistledown.

Perhaps his attentions to her are still trapped by the confines of the culture, but I think that he is far better than most men of the era. I think he is just a bit, well, strange and distracted himself.

This spoiler refers to some knowledge I have of Strange from having read one of Clarke's short stories, and his views on women

(view spoiler)[ plus there is the fact that Strange later teaches a coven of witches magic in another short story written by Clarke. He has no problem including women into the fold (hide spoiler)]

It was Stephanie who first brought this fact to our attention, and I seconded her. It was only a natural attitude for the early 19th century, but, you know, when we read we tend to interpret through the lens of our XIX century values:-)

I think the way Strange treats Arabella in his off-handed way is actually a sort of respect. He knows that Arabella does not need his doting attention, that she's a strong woman. While Norrell is a weak little man who needs to be handled with "kid gloves"

The break came at a bad part of the book and I'm already into the next section. ;P

I loved the idea of all mirrors being connected through this strange land.
I already long to hear more of it. I almost hope Jonathan will not care about his agrrement with Arabella and enter the mirror again soon! But maybe he is able to assure her in a short time that he is safe 'in there'. Although I wouldn't believe him.
I wonder what happened to Vinculus by the way...

I'm finding this is not sticking in my mind very well. I enjoy it while I'm reading it, but I usually read it at the weekend before the comment thread is up, and by the time I remember to check again I've forgotten a lot of it. Must start making notes...

OK, so I'm a little late to the party, but there's soooo much delicious stuff that you guys have been talking about!

Hopefully, I don't forget anything that I want to bring up! :D

In some ways I feel sympathetic towards ThistleDown as anytime he does something for humans he has usually been tricked into doing so and I can understand his distrust of them, as well. It seems to be that he just wants to collect people, objects, servants, castles and the like...I'm not sure that even in Faerie he'd be considered good. Even Norrell tricked him into saving Lady Pole and Norrell saved Lady Pole for truly selfish reasons (for his own personal gain) and didn't think of Emma's own thoughts or feelings. I mean sure she's still alive, but she's spent so much time being part of ThistleDown's collection that she abhors living. How sad.

The break did come at a bad time! I think this is the part where I just finished reading the book...to heck with it! And, please note I am only commenting on the things that I felt during this section and the previous sections.

I totally understand what you are saying! I think that part of my problem is that this book really is just loads of fun and then there's the footnotes that are also lovely and go on wonderful tangents...tangents that sometimes don't even directly relate to the rest of the story. Good stuff!!! I had to finish the whole book before I could comment in a competent manner.

About Strange and women...yes, I was the one who said that he treats women inferior. He separates the female as a magician (and, think even says at one time that all people who can be--have the gift--should be trained as magicians...which he notes is a big difference he has with Norrell) and the feminine. As a female Arabella has her freedoms. She calls on who she wants to, she says what she feels and gives Jonathan her piece of mind often, she is almost an equal. When exploring her feminine nature, we see that she is treated as a servant at times, someone whose opinion only matters if he deems it so, someone whose attention should rest soley in his magnificence as a man of means and as one of the most powerful magicians. I find it interesting that he sees ThistleDown as a threat, but not the right kind of threat, even though Arabella is saying all the right things, inadvertently, for him to piece the puzzle together. I think it if Pole or Norrell were telling him the same things that she is (Lady Pole babbles and talks in riddles, Lady Pole seems to have a secret, Stephen Black seems to have the same affliction), I know he'd notice and do something about it. It is sad that he only listens to what his wife says when it suits him. He does love his wife, but he loves her like most men of his day loved women (more as possessions than people) and he knows better, he knows that women are capable of great things. He's having a hard time reconciling his two views of women and that is a detriment to him and worse than if he were just a typical man of his time.

I love that Strange has found the mirrors. Why didn't Norrell? I say it's because finding the mirrors didn't suit his sensibilities. I also think that Norrell could have found a way to save Lady Pole without summoning a faerie, he's just some sort of lazy.

I love the character of Vinculus and I love that what he is to the story is so subtle and delicious.

Stephanie wrote: "OK, so I'm a little late to the party, but there's soooo much delicious stuff that you guys have been talking about!

Hopefully, I don't forget anything that I want to bring up! :D

In some ways I ..."

Stephanie, I am totally with you - Strange does love his wife and he has a noble heart, but his attitude towards his wife is totally acceptable for his time and quite off-putting by modern standards. It is as if we were trying to analyze the novel Jane Eyreboth using both historical and feminist literary theories. This somewhat lopsided personality of Mr. Strange actually makes him a tangible and multi-dimensional character.

I understand what you're saying, I just feel that Strange treats the men this way too :). I actually feel that his wife is about the only person that he *would* listen to. Remember he and Arabella discussed his leaving for the war together, after having her consent, he out-manuevered Norrell. He treats Arabella with more deference in the earlier chapters than he ever treated her brother.

I think he is merely a flippant character, and pretty universally thinks that he is better than those around him. I just dont see where he treats his wife moreso like that than others.

Norrell on the other hand completely disregards women. I couldnt believe he reduced Arabella to tears during that book auction, or that he refuses to address Lady Pole's problem. I dont think Norrell realizes what he has re-released onto the world.
But we can always agree to disagree :D

So, I spent about 10 minutes analyzing good 'ole Jane and Rochester using feminist literary theories and laughed...alone mostly...good times.

If you think about it, Strange is better than those around him (he comes to his senses quicker than all the other men and is not Norrell's stuffiness or Drawlight and Lascelles greedy insipidness, nor Arabella brother's scared-catness, he is not pompous like Walter Pole and so on...), he's willing to train female magicians, willing to fight for his country, and, has the social standing to back up this arrogance. And, everyone seems to notice and accept this about him (even his wife).

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the way he treats her as a wife. He treats women, in general, better than he treats Arabella as a wife. When you say 'out-manuever' are you referring to the book auction where Arabella tries to buy the books but doesn't succeed? Or, is there some other part that I am not thinking of...I also can't find/don't recall the scene where they discuss Strange going overseas to war. I know that they go to Sir Walter's to talk about that war and Strange ignores Arabella in favor of talking to Walter about the war and then she gets bored at reading and finds and talks to Lady Pole and Thistledown...I don't remember the 'consent'. She accepted what he had to do. I remember the conversation that he and she have about him leaving and about how that will make him look better to others, as Norrell refuses to go...is that the part? Strange does learn from his mistakes in how he treats her...just after the fact, not before, when he could prevent things.

And, yes, Norrell is a dim-witted, dip-head who only thinks about himself at all times and he doesn't care if that is at the detriment of others. Norrell knows exactly what he did, and he does not care as it as made him a well-known and respected magician.

During their argument about the mirror hallways Strange says that its much like going to war, and that was dangerous.

"But you and I agreed that you had a duty to go," said Arabella. I feel this implies that he came to her, and was like 'sweetheart I need to go to Spain.' He did not go to Norrell and ask his permission, he only consulted Arabella. He out-manuevered Norrell by tricking Norrell into giving his consent to Strange's departure and also with Norrell's books. I feel if Norrell told Strange to stay out of the mirrors, he would ignore him at the first opportunity. Now, I think he will eventually ignore Arabelle too out of necessity, but I think that because she said not to he will put more of an effort forth to stay out of the mirror.

Like I said, I think Strange treats everyone with the same amount if indifference. I dont think its because she is his wife, I just feel that when I read him, he pretty much treats everyone that way. I think that he actually respects her more than most of the people in his life becase without her he knows that his life would fall a part.

Oh, yes, I see, the part about the books was quite funny and clever, and he does have a duty and she accepts that (not that she has a choice, he is only one of two magicians). I think Strange likes Norrell, but in the way any person likes someone who they admire, but who is a bit behind the times and in someways useless and sad.

About the mirrors...we can talk more about that later. I don't want to give something away accidentally soooo much happens by the end of Book II.

He would definitely ignore Norrell, only because he'd know Norrell would be hiding something from him and he'd have to investigate or not know the whole truth. Arabella doesn't hide anything and her concern for him is genuine. Strange doesn't ignore Norrell though, he actually allows himself to learn from Norrell. He also doesn't ignore Walter, or for that matter any other man in or above his social standing. He does ignore his wife and Lady Pole. That's why it's so interesting that he listens to her talk about Thistledown...he listens for all the wrong reasons and pays attention to all the wrong things from Arabella's meeting with the man. He should know to investigate further, especially since he is looking into faeries...it's all there only it isn't coming from Walter or Norrell it's coming from a woman who happens to be his wife.

He does respect her more than anyone and he will/would do anything for her and I do agree with your end paragraph whole-heartedly! :D

Now how about Mr. Norrell? There are no women in his life, so is he asexual or closeted homosexual? Does he use books as a sex sublimation/ a book harem? Does he accumulate books for the sake of having them or reading them?

You know the prophecy said something about Norrell burying his heart but still feeling its ache. I do hope more of that is revealed. An unrequited love perhaps?

Perhaps! He is a loner and, I am afraid, lonely. And he is the shadowy figure - not only gray in terms of morality and values, but also mainly an uncharted land so far. And it is unusual that we know more about Mr. Strange than Mr. Norrell. He was the first of those two who was described, and now so much is left to speculate ...

He doesn't know how to be with people. I think that Jonathan Strange is the first person that he's ever liked...ever. He also knows the dangers of magic. Maybe he thinks he's saving everyone with his strange hording or maybe he's just a misanthropic curmudgeon???

Finally caught up and I had fun reading the comments.

Tasha wrote: "Finally caught up and I had fun reading the comments."

Yay Tasha, welcome back :)

Rosemary wrote: "I'm finding this is not sticking in my mind very well. I enjoy it while I'm reading it, but I usually read it at the weekend before the comment thread is up, and by the time I remember to check aga..."

I'm actually writing short abstracts for each chapter because I couldn't remember much from the last time I read the book (although I really enjoyed it!) and didn't want to have to read it again every couple of years to find out why I liked it so much. :)

This was one of my favorite sections so far. I loved the idea of Drawlight pretending to be Strange and selling his services. I do wonder about his motivation, especially when Mrs. Bullworth indicated that Lascelles would be severely punished as well. I suppose Drawlight never expected this would get out and Lascelles would never suffer nor find out about this (which, at the very least, is what he tells Lascelles when he visits). Glad Lascelles had the smarts to tell his servants to no longer admit Drawlight.

And the idea of a world connecting mirrors is pretty fascinating. Can't wait to hear what comes of that. Based on how large and crazy and dangerous the world in there seemed, though, I was surprised Strange was able to come out in exactly the right place to confront Drawlight.

Deana wrote: "This was one of my favorite sections so far. I loved the idea of Drawlight pretending to be Strange and selling his services. I do wonder about his motivation, especially when Mrs. Bullworth indi..."

This is the moment in the novel where the events start to unfold. :-)

The events with the mirrors remind me so much of House of Leaves, in which a dark hallway appears in a house, and it's a labyrinth of hallways, staircases and passageways that are neverending.

I am concerned for Arabella, as I'm certain she's the "heart" that is going to be taken from (or at least hidden from?) Strange. But we don't know if he'll get her back in the end...

I loved the scene with Drawlight! I'm afraid he'll retaliate, though....