Moby-Dick or, The Whale discussion

Here's my answer: http://bit.ly/KKwKmE

What do you think?

I don't think Moby Dick is great. This is my answer: (view spoiler)[I do not understand why this book is considered an American classic, unless it was so designated by an enemy of the USA who wants to make us look foolish. Melville is long-winded, wordy and pedantic. If he didn't try to overwhelm the reader with every piece of trivia he could find about whales, it might have been slightly better. Melville seems to be looking down upon the reader by using infinite references to obscure gods, goddesses, mythology and tidbits from around the world. The conversations, or soliloquies, were completely unnatural. Would you calmly deliver a five minute speech to yourself if your ship were sinking? Not only did Ahab do this, so did Starbuck and Stubbs! I never sympathized with any character in the book, but Starbuck and Moby Dick. I was glad that Ahab finally got what he deserved. It is too bad that Moby Dick had to suffer in the process. I do not recommend this book, unless as jailhouse torture. (hide spoiler)]

Well Emily, you're entitled to your opinion. Of course Shakespeare's dialog isn't all that natural either. Would you put him in the same crappy category?

Shakespeare is not my favorite playwright, but I can't put him in the same category as Melville. I consider Moby Dick the worst book classified as a 'classic.'

I'm on the side of great.

Apart from anything all the 'obscure Gods and Goddesses' were not so obscure to the original readers, and those original readers would have had more recognition and emotional connection with a lot of the Bible references also.

Besides that, the book has this wonderful inversion of symbolism. The white whale as a symbol of evil and the noble Ahab going to kill it - but then as we go on, the mad Ahab killing the unfeeling whale and then when we get to the very end we have a whole different experience indeed.

My main problem is Ishmael, who doesn't seem to learn a single thing from his experience.

Tim, I do not agree. I do not think the image of whale, Moby-Dick, or whaling is well put throughtout the book according to your own post. Using musical analogy, Moby-Dick is like a set of variations. The system you wrote, which is supposed to be self-effacing but clear once known, is more like a movement; not with obvious repetitions of a theme but substantial consistency and connectivity.
Emily, this is considered romanticist. Of course, people do not talk as characters of the book. This does not show you what is happening and let you feel whatever might sprouts in your mind. This book more conveys the emotions themselves directly.
Patrice, do you really think Ishmael or Melville intended to evoke frustration?
Adam, Ishmael learned so much. He just does not teach us much.

Ahab makes it great.

But the book would be greater were it whittled down by a scrimshaw knife. Two-hundred pages on whaling and whales! My hunch is that this book, written in the pre-modern age, functioned as a kind of compendium or almanac to provide readers with information in addition to literary pleasure, and that what modern readers would consider extraneous may have been well appreciated by Melville's contemporaries.

But it is Ahab who makes the book memorable -- Ahab, the iconic driven man.

In addition to the brilliant use of language, what I was surprised to find the second time I read it was the sense of humor! The first scenes in the whaling village--New Bedford--which is familiar to me were rife with funny characters and comic situations.

Take another look at this book before you write it off as a bad example of a classic.

Stephanie wrote: "In addition to the brilliant use of language, what I was surprised to find the second time I read it was the sense of humor! The first scenes in the whaling village--New Bedford--which is familiar ..."

I agree, Stephanie, humor is an overlooked virtue of the book. I'll never forget Ishmael sharing the bed with the spooning cannibal Queequeg!

The book is good, and it would have been even better if it had not been considered a piece of literature. It could be placed as an encyclopedia of whales.

I really put in a lot of effort to understand the book, thought it is quite symbolic and the symbolism is so deep that probably I could not understand it. Then I discussed with my friends- and to my surprise they also had a similar opinion. I don't consider it a literary work.

I agree to some extent, Shikha: as I noted above, modern readers -- myself included -- probably consider the book two-hundred pages too long. But the remainder is, for this reader, great literature.

But I put this out to all: I have heard this book referred to, more than once, I think, as the "first great American novel." Why do literary critics/English professors say this? Is it the grand sweep of the book, the iconic struggle of a man driven to conquer the unconquerable, the power of the language? What do you think?

Jon wrote: "I agree to some extent, Shikha: as I noted above, modern readers -- myself included -- probably consider the book two-hundred pages too long. But the remainder is, for this reader, great literature..."

Interesting comments, Patrick.

To elaborate on your comment about the skin color of whaling men, yes, and the fact is, many free African-Americans took to whaling because the work was so hazardous that many white Americans preferred less dangerous work. Naturally it is those with fewer economic options who gravitate to dangerous work. Which is not to say that the thrill of adventure did not also appeal to some whaling men, to some extent!

As for individualism, another interesting point. It makes me think of the ancient Greek ideal -- they felt that an army of free-thinking individuals was more effective than a highly regimented force (Thucydides). (Of course, the ancient Romans enjoyed great military success with an enormous degree of regimentation ... I think this idea is running out of steam).

I'm not criticizing Melville.

He's a master, and something that might seem a weakness to my lesser lights, might turn out to be vital to what he was doing.

Melville knows best.

Shelley, Rain: A Dust Bowl Story, http://dustbowlpoetry.wordpress.com

My short answer would be: It doesn't hurt that it's the funniest book ever.

JinSoo wrote: "Tim, I do not agree. I do not think the image of whale, Moby-Dick, or whaling is well put throughtout the book according to your own post. Using musical analogy, Moby-Dick is like a set of variatio..."

Damn right. The switching of styles all through the book makes it nothing less than the precursor to Ulysses by Joyce. It's the playing with language that sucked me in.

The book has some undeniably great sections, but it is also bogged down by a massive amount of extraneous information. For instance what is Ishmael's purpose? He takes up a big section at the beginning and then phases out. Also, the whaling descriptions were simply painful.

Emily wrote: "I don't think Moby Dick is great. This is my answer: [spoilers removed]"

The character is Starbuck, not Starbucks. Starbucks is a coffee shop. I realize Starbucks is everywhere, but I don't think they were on whaling ships in those days.

Thanks, Robert. Never been to the ubiquitous Starbucks, either now or on a whaling ship. Wrote review after I burned the book, so guess I didn't remember the name.

'Call me Ishmael' - an intriguing tale of obsession and the pursuit of ?????????????? Lovedit.

What I loved about Moby-Dick was the dark poetry of the voice, especially in the descriptions of the ocean in the second half of the book. I've heard it referred to as the "prophetic voice" and, by my lights, there's something very American about it (Patrice alluded to the Americanness of Moby-Dick above, and I very much agree).

Melville had it, Cormac McCarthy has it. Some poets have it, but I can't think of many other novelists that do. Faulkner. Steinbeck. Maybe Larry Brown. Maybe Daniel Woodrell. But nobody does it like Melville did,

I can see why people don't like Moby-Dick. It's not for everyone. But, like it or not, it's one of the great works of American literature.

My brother recently posted a wonderful GR review of this book. (http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...)

Here are his main points about Moby-Dick (I am posting this quote with his permission):

1. Nobody turns a phrase like Melville. His language, of another century, is thick and delicious. You could hang a coat on it.

2. It's funny. Damn funny. During parts, like the taunting of the French captain, I was laughing aloud.

3. Ishmael sure spends a lot of time in bed with Queequeg. I'm sure it was perfectly innocent, with "Queequeg now and then affectionately throwing his brown tattooed legs over mine, and then drawing them back". Perfectly innocent.

4. The moments of darkness and tragedy are striking and horrible. I was taken with just how affecting I found them.

5. Post modernism is a sham. Melville was doing it all: shifting narrators, playing with form (from play to journal to monologue), playing with time, footnotes, fake notes on the work by a fictional sub-sub-librarian.

6. I will read this again. Possibly many times.

It's the classic story on obsession.

I read this when I was immobilized by a burn accident at work. I found the book a very difficult read ("honey, can you bring me the dictionary and the Bible?"), but well worth the effort. It also didn't hurt that I had a book that was annotated. Did anyone else find the chapter on the horrors of white to be one of the creepiest things ever written, or was it that I was all doped up on pain meds at the time?

i just finished this last week - the audio version read by the fabulous Frank Muller. It is at heart an adventure story which i can see clearly b/c i am reading an illustrated children's version to my seven year old son. he likes the action and the curious environs at sea and all the odd characters in the story. he is puzzled by Ahab's quest, though. i liked the grandness of the story and the extremes throughout. it was as though Melville was trying to make everything in his story BIG in order for us to face the important (BIG) things in life.
What makes it great? the grandiose scope of the story (well told) and the vividness of the characters and the richness of the language.

Jon wrote: "Ahab makes it great.

But the book would be greater were it whittled down by a scrimshaw knife. Two-hundred pages on whaling and whales! My hunch is that this book, written in the pre-modern age, ..."
I agree. If Herman Melville took the whole non-fiction part out, I would have enjoyed the book.

Oh well, I only just started reading this book and so far I'm having a hard time. Not because of the text itself. That's no issue at all. Because the book I have has too tiny print. D:

So far I'm pretty much amused by all the things Ishmael tells us. I only started reading Chapter 14 now so I have yet to read about Ahab.
On the things Danielle posted from her brother's review:
4. sounds promising. Also, lol, yes, Ishmael and Queequeg in bed.
Also, every time I finish a chapter I look up from the book and ask myself: "What did I just read?" because ... it's interesting and sometimes funny and yeah. Well.

☯Emily wrote: "I don't think Moby Dick is great. This is my answer: [spoilers removed]"

I couldn't agree with Emily more. This book sucks! The only thing that could save it would be shortening it by about three hundred pages, and making Queequeg the main character.

I also don't think it's great. Long, boring, a man's book in a way that excludes women readers. However, someone once told me to only read the first (not the whaling stuff, but the "call me ishmael") chapter and the last chapter. If you do that, you get the point, the voice, Ahab, the symbols, but you don't get bored to tears.

A few of the publishers' rejections of M-D still exist, and overall, I agree with those guys.

If the Literature Department hadn't been invented with all its ludicrous dissections and backassward values, this book would have long ago fallen into deserved obscurity.

It was difficult, but I was determined to read this book and I am so happy and proud that I did. To me this book represents the unknown and mans quest to conquer the unknown. Ahab, a monomaniacal character, the sperm whale, who represents God or the unknown. It beautiful, the characters, my favorite being Queequeg. I won't ever read it again, but will highly recommend it, ok highly recoment it to certain people. I think its made for certain people and others just might not like it or appreciate it and thats ok. It can be boring and hard to understand at times. Some might not parallel or identify with it the way others do. I have also noticed since reading Moby Dick, how many refences in everyday life are made towards this book. It kind of part of society, so many things I might not have understood or picked up on had I not read this book. Like I said, I won't read it again, but I can appreciate this book and see its reflection upon many things happening in daily life.

Ahab makes it great!
I've never known another character of this kind! The language used by Melville is captivating. But the "evil" aspect of Ahab and his "crazyness" , his "good" side... this is so huge! That's Great! The ocean occupy the central role. There are a lot of biblical and philosophy references. In particular Plato and German classic philosophy. Moby Dick reminds me to a particular search of God. This thick book deserves attention. Everyone who loves classics... must buy Moby Dick!

Like any great work, Moby Dick improves with re-reading (I would compare it to the Odyssey or the Bible in this regard). The first time through can be difficult, sorting through the off chapters, but the 2nd time is sublime.

To truly appreciate Melville's language, listen to the book read out loud. He was America's answer to Shakespeare, and it is no surprise that the book didn't really catch on until years after Melville's death, when film resurrected it.

I agree on all counts. I do think he was America's answer to Shakespeare in the 19th century. Perhaps Bob Dylan would be my choice for the 20th - or Cormac McCarthy.

It doesn't matter how hard it is. Moby Dick is worth it. It's like preparing a feast versus going through the Burger King drive-thru. Harder makes better.

Shelley
Rain, A Dust Bowl Story
http://dustbowlpoetry.wordpress.com

Moby Dick is brilliantly crazy, it rambles on, and on, but it's all either gripping or crazy. i love it so much I'm writing a book based on it, and it's SOOO FUN....

Robert wrote: "Emily wrote: "I don't think Moby Dick is great. This is my answer: [spoilers removed]"

The character is Starbuck, not Starbucks. Starbucks is a coffee shop. I realize Starbucks is everywhere, but..."

I'm glad you pointed this out . . . after reading the book and some reviews on it, I was starting to suspect that's where Starbucks got its name.

(a bit yuppie, but they sure brew a fine cup of coffee)

My 2c worth. I read the novel once, maybe two decades ago. My thoughts, very well written, but, I found it utterly cold and inhuman, repellently so. Human life is considered unimportant even trivial as compared to duty, god, or simply getting the job done. I recall "A dead whale or a stove boat". As I said, a good read, but no desire to re-read.

As a whole, I hated the book. But I learned a lot about the whaling industry of the time (a lot like learning of the meat-packing industry in The Jungle). It had funny parts too, but the mass of the book sort of overwhelmed the good for me.

That said, I also realize a lot of the references carried a lot more weight in the day it was published rather than in our more hectic, fractured society today. So Melville gets a pass for that.

Would I shorten it 200 pages? Yes. Would I recommend the book? Only to certain people. You have to be willing to make the investment in reading the book.

I found this book incredibly tedious and struggled to finish it at all. Surprised it is considered a classic. I love classics, but this book doesn't have very good flow with the stroy. And often it will spend pages or even whole chapters on one very specific detail as if Melvilel was trying to spin as many words from each one as he possibly could. Difficult to glean the important refernces in the book as they were drowned by unnecessary detail. Would not recomend it. So, to answer the topic question -- I have no idea!

Carly wrote: "Robert wrote: "Emily wrote: "I don't think Moby Dick is great. This is my answer: [spoilers removed]"

The character is Starbuck, not Starbucks. Starbucks is a coffee shop. I realize Starbucks is ..."

there is a connection, though, lots of the whaling families went into coffee trading, Starbuck is a real name from Nantucket, so it might be connected with coffee too

I loved it.
Surprisingly modern, with beautiful poetic passages.
Yes, there are looooooooooong intervalls where nothing much happens, but it's exactly like this that Melville takes you on board of this improbable trip, leading to the fantastic finale.

It IS a classic, and rightly so in my opinion.

What makes Moby Dick so great, aside from the terrific, poetic passages, already mentioned, is the fact that Melville has a terrific sense of humor.

To me, at least, that came as a big surprise.

He also has progressive views of diversity and a lot of compassion in his characterizations.

Nothing.

Rebecca wrote: "Nothing."

Thankyou for that insightful, well-reasoned comment :P

I won't try to break down what makes it great here, but I feel the influence. This post includes a story called The Blue Whale in the Bathtub http://dailybrass.blogspot.com/2012/0...

It's classic, it's one of the most well known books in the world, you'll see lots of references to it in movies, TV shows, and other books even. Also it was extremely well-written and just good in general :P

Here is a great new audio download of Moby Dick with various readers including Stephen Fry and Tilda Swinton: http://www.mobydickbigread.com/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-env...

It's been forever since I "tried" to read Moby Dick. I gave it my best shot but finally gave up. Maybe I'm not intelligent enough to get it. I want to like it but I just can't!!!

Check out Google today! Celebrating Melville.

Shelley, Rain: A Dust Bowl Story
http://dustbowlpoetry.wordpress.com

I completely agree. I read it because I felt as though I needed to read it to be "well read." But it was a major chore for me. Checked it off of my list and moved on.