Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

Post comments for The Iliad here.

I can't believe that I don't have a copy of this book. I am afraid that by the time my copy comes this month will be over. This might be a continual summer/fall read for me. But it is one that I want to finish.

No pressure! You can always post your comments on the Iliad (and any other book on our shelves) whenever you finish :-)

Ditto what Kathy said!

I need to get a start on The Iliad. My copy is big and old so I'll probably only read it at home. I'm hoping to finish it before the end of the month. I'll post once I get into it. Has anyone else started it yet?

I read it earlier this year so I'm very interested in this discussion. It's good to throw ideas back and forth as you are reading the book instead of waiting until the end, because the story is so full of rich characters, interesting situations and curious motivations. It also helps to sort out everything in your head. Trying to get a handle on Greek culture while learning the names of the warriors on both sides isn't easy! :-)

For anyone who has begun, what did you think about the reaction of Achilleus to Agamemnon after he took Briseis? Were his actions reasonable or not?

As the discussion goes on, I'd like to see what people find as the central difference (besides the obvious) between Achilles in the Iliad and Odysseus in the Odyssey.

Shelley
Rain: A Dust Bowl Story
http://dustbowlpoetry.wordpress.com

It looks like it is not too late to start reading the Iliad for discussion - is that correct? I need a book to bring with me on Sunday for a 10 day canoe trip, and I saw your group read selections of the Iliad and A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. I might bring Iliad instead of Tree if it is not too late to begin posting comments when I get back (on Aug. 8), otherwise I'll bring Tree. Can you advise?

It is never too late to post comments! People post comments to books that we read ages ago, so enjoy the novel and post away :-)

Shelley, I haven't read The Odyssey yet so I'm not able to compare and contrast the two. I do plan on reading The Odyssey sometime after I'm done with The Iliad. Maybe I'll nominate it in the future, or we could set up a buddy read folder for it? I think it would prove for some interesting discussion.

Cleo, it's hard to pin point my thoughts of Achilleus' reaction. I may reread that section so I can give it more thought. As of right now, putting my mind in the context of the story, I think that Achilleus over reacted. It's understandable that he would be angry, but to threaten to leave and then start a battle only to show Agamemnon how much he's needed is too much. It wasn't right that Agamemnon took his captive, but as captain did he have a right to his mens' captives? I'll take another look at that section to familiarize myself and see if my opinion changes. What are your thoughts?

Shelley, I've read both. I see Achilleus as a complete warrior. His focus is on winning glory and honour and to have his deeds live on. His emotions can run hot, yet he can also be faithful and loyal, as we see in his relationship with Patroclus. I love Achilleus as a character in a book but I'm not sure I would like him so much if I was a Greek who had to have dealings with him. :-Z

As for Odysseus, he is one of my favourite characters. The emphasis with him is his guile and craftiness. While I think deeds and fame are important to him as well, you see by his actions (his trick to try to avoid going to Troy, his journey to return home to his wife and family) that other things are important to him as well, perhaps more important: family, home, etc. I can find a gentle side of Odysseus even though he is also a proficient fighter and at times has little mercy.

Anybody else have any comments?

Jenny, I felt the same as you when I first started the book, yet the group I was reading it with gave some very enlightening comments. Apparently in Greek society, your honour was the highest ideal to strive for. When the Greeks pillaged cities and towns and took goods, treasures and women, all these things were equated with honour. The more you had, the more honour you had, the more famous you were and therefore the more respected. So when Agamemnon takes Briseis, he is not just taking a favoured woman of Achilleus, he is, in effect, stealing his honour. This would have been a big "no-no" in Greek society. Take a look also when you're reading along, how the other Greeks react to Achilleus' decision to remove himself from the fighting. With a modern mind, you would think they would be angry that their best fighter, not only decides to remove himself from the war, but to remove all his fighting men as well, yet, if my memory serves me correctly, in most of the scenes that refer to this, their anger/annoyance is directed towards Agamemnon. It appears he is the one who is in the wrong.

It's interesting to note as well, that even though Agamemnon is the agreed leader of the expedition, the others don't seem completely subservient to him and you can often see a breakdown in his leadership abilities. Fascinating ......

I just love this book! When I first started to read it, I thought I wouldn't like it but Homer does such a good job at connecting you with the characters and giving you a feel for them and their emotions. I was really glad to be able to read through this slowly (I think we did two books per week). It allowed the information to percolate and was helpful to get your head around the Greek mind. So, yes, please comment, Richard. I'm sure there will be some of us still participating!

OK, I just got back from my canoe trip (read a SF book) and picked up the Fagles translation of Iliad. I've read the Rouse and Butler prose translations before. I'm just starting it, so no comments based on reading yet. But let me pose this question - it is my impression that the Iliad is considered a greater work than the Odyssey - would you agree, and if so why? I recall that I enjoyed reading the Odyssey more than the Iliad - what about you?

Cleo, that makes a lot of sense that their honor was the most important thing to them. I forgot that it was such a common theme other Greek myths. In the Iliad it's shown again when Achilleus is offered an amazing amount of fortune, including Briseis, and yet he still refuses to rejoin the battle.

Richard, I believe that the Odyssey is more widely read than the Iliad. I'm not sure why this is ............. perhaps a journey home to your family is more palatable than a brutal war ??? :-) Personally I liked the Iliad the best. I thought I wouldn't but the way Homer weaves the story in the Iliad ..... the diverse characters, their interactions, the behaviour of the gods, etc. ...... I found it absolutely fascinating.

I read Lattimore's translation for the Iliad and really enjoyed it. At some point I'd like to read Pope as well. I've heard that Lattimore is best for The Iliad, Fagles for the Odyssey and Fitzgerald for The Aeneid. I'm not sure if I agree or not. I do know that while I loved Lattimore for the Iliad, I didn't enjoy his translation of the Odyssey as much. I am now reading Fitzgerald's translation of The Aeneid and it is very good, so perhaps the list is reasonably accurate.

In any case, happy reading!

A favorite passage so far:
"That's Laertes' son, the great tactician Odysseus.
He was bred in the land of Ithaca. Rocky ground
and he's quick at every treachery under the sun -
the man of twists and turns."

There are a lot of similes in this work (for example, comparing the army beginning to assemble for battle to a gathering of storm clouds) rather than straight metaphores (the "kennings" used in Norse tales are more metaphorical, such as calling a ship a "sea steed".)

OK, finally finished it (took a long time, I know, but I could only take so much gore at one sitting.) From my review: I'm conflicted about this book. I know it is a great classic of western lit, and this is about the third or so time I've read it so I acknowledge it is important. But it disturbs me that one of the foundational works of western lit is so focused on violence, on one hand graphically depicting the brutality of war but on the other hand also glorifying it. The depiction of both the greek mortals and gods also show such vanity, selfishness, juvenile squabbling, thirst for power and dominance, etc., that you see the beginnings of all of the bad things people associate with Western culture and society. Maybe everyone should read it, but maybe also we should see it as an example of what it is, not as something to revere.

I was reading a book of pieces by the film critic Pauline Kael, and came upon a remarkable sentence. She says that what we find in classic Greek literature, we find nowhere else.

Shelley, Rain: A Dust Bowl Story
http://dustbowlpoetry.wordpress.com

Honestly I see the Greek Gods as having all the negative qualities that humans are supposed to strive to overcome.

Well as the group is reading The Odyssey this month it is past time that I actually read this book. I noticed that in message #2 above that I didn't own a copy; since then I actually have picked up three different translations (and still not read any of them).

I am starting The Anger of Achilles: The Iliad translated by Robert Graves. And as I have a couple of other translations, if I have time I can always compare.

I want to read this after I finish The Odyssey as well, I did consider nominating it for our next group read, but I think I might postpone it for a little while longer yet.

Pink wrote: "I want to read this after I finish The Odyssey as well, I did consider nominating it for our next group read, but I think I might postpone it for a little while longer yet."

I'm hoping I can get it read by next week so that I can still join in the group read of The Odyssey. Send positive thoughts my way! Besides I have this one on My Old & New Challenge

Have you read either of them before Kathy, or is this your first time?

First time for me -- although I do have the basic idea of what happens in both -- I am fairly familiar with the mythology of the stories.

Me too. Are you squeezing The Iliad in before our group read of The Odyssey because you want to read them in date order? I considered doing this, but it will have to be the other way around now.

If you're worried about not having time, The Odyssey reads very easily, it doesn't drag on like some Victorian novels can, so if The Iliad is at all similar you should be able to get through it quite quickly, despite its size!

Pink wrote: "Me too. Are you squeezing The Iliad in before our group read of The Odyssey because you want to read them in date order? ..."

That is the plan

I also wanted to read The Iliad before reading The Odyssey, but will not be able to finish either before the end of the month. I just finished Book 16, where Patroclus joins in the fighting. It is much more graphic when describing the battle scenes than I thought it would be.

Cleo's post perfectly describes the way I felt about Achilles' reaction to Agamemnon taking Briseis away from him. I don't remember anyone blaming Achilles for his reaction, instead I think they felt bad for him. So far though, I haven't seen a lot of Achilles, but I think he's supposed to be in the later books more.

I am really enjoying The Iliad, and want to read The Odyssey after I'm finished. Might not be right away though, as I want to read our group reads as well because they all look very interesting. I have an abridged audio book that I'm listening to, plus the Fagles translation paperback so I can read the chapters not included. I have to say, I'm really enjoying listening to it along with reading.

Renee wrote: "I also wanted to read The Iliad before reading The Odyssey, but will not be able to finish either before the end of the month. I just finished Book 16, where Patroclus joins in the fighting. It is ..."

I'm so glad that you're enjoying it, Renee. I'm thinking of re-reading it before the end of the year.

A break between the two books would be wise. I read The Iliad, The Odyssey and The Aeneid in succession and was burnt out afterwards. In fact, I don't think I appreciated The Aeneid nearly as much as I should have. A re-read of it should be in order too! :-)

Still reading this one. Obviously I didn't finish in time to read The Odyssey with the group in August. Still hoping to finish both books by the end of the year.

I also have this Great Courses audio -- The Iliad of Homer. Hoping to find time to listen to the lectures.

I am reading Book 4. And so far it is a bit tough.With ,so many characters...

I am liking both Fagles and Lattimore translation of this.I remember liking both the translations for Odyssey too.Just can't remember which I liked more.

I think Odyssey is an easier read than this..I was able to read it quickly. But this, I find I can only take in, a bit at a time.Very dense.

I too like the fact that Homer connects us to the characters .Though I did not like Odysseus in his book I like him here.Homer must have been a very great storyteller.

I am liking this more than Odyssey.

I don't think Achilles overreacted..Agamemnon does not seem much of a leader...and on tip of that lto disrespect their biggest warrior, not the right thing.I think, it was a matter of honor for Achilles,

As for Achilles and Odysseus, I think their strength differs.Both are very valuable. Odysseus is more wily and Achilles, the greatest warrior there was.

Paris seems so flaky.Helen has regained her common sense and regrets her actions,I think.

I think these vain,capricious and always arguing and scheming Gods are reason for most of the plight of the humans in the book. If they minded thwir own Business, humans would have lead a better and easier life.
Of course, we wouldn't have such a book either.

Hi All. I am reading what you all have to say. I may comment a but, but I may not. Katy, I wish I had taken my time with the text. I processed and stuffed it in the brain. Was decidedly a pain. I did it to myself. So Man a the Great Courses audio or a Great Course on ancient literature migjt be good, learning without having to read again.

In agreement that The Odyssey is far less dense, more storied, if I remember correctly. I re-read The Iliad with the intention of re-read The Odyssey and The Aenied. So I am putting it out there in case someone might be listening and is interested. Early next year I will post in Buddy Read Requests.

I guess I did comment ☺

siriusedward wrote: "I don't think Achilles overreacted.."

That's what I thought at first.

(I read this months back, I think, I've read so much since that I don't remember.)

siriusedward wrote: "..Agamemnon does not seem much of a leader...and on tip of that lto disrespect their biggest warrior, not the right thing.I think, it was a matter of honor for Achilles,"

The idea of honour amongst these men really stood out for me, and I thought it was ironic that they were bickering between themselves whilst at war with Troy.

I also found this a challenging read and found it helped to take my time. Not sure how much I understood but I really enjoyed reading it and would read it again.

Cynda wrote: "I re-read The Iliad with the intention of re-read The Odyssey and The Aenied. So I am putting it out there in case someone might be listening and is interested. Early next year I will post in Buddy Read Requests."

Hey Cynda, I'm hoping to read one or both of these next year, I haven't quite worked out when though.

I had like to read Aeneid next year too.
:)

Cynda wrote: "...I re-read The Iliad with the intention of re-read The Odyssey and The Aenied. So I am putting it out there in case someone might be listening and is interested. Early next year I will post in Buddy Read Requests. ..."

I am interested in any or all three. I read The Anger of Achilles: Homer's Iliad by Robert Graves and then The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller.

I also own copies of translations by E.V. Rieu, Lattimore, and Fagles. So I have "new to me" versions still to read.

Since this was originally an oral epic, is anyone listening to it on audiobook and how does that change your feelings about it?

I read this a few months back but see that The Iliad: A New Translation by Peter Green kindle book is just over $3 on Amazon, and could not resist. I hope to start reading this in a week or so - well, that's the plan :)

Katy wrote: "Cynda wrote: "...I re-read The Iliad with the intention of re-read The Odyssey and The Aenied. So I am putting it out there in case someone might be listening and is interested. Early next year I w..."

I just saw this Katy. I have a full list that will take me the rest of the year. I will be starting on an Ancients study, including modern re-tellings, in 2019. The Achilles boom by Miller is on my list for next year. I will get back with you when I can--late December--to let you know what my reading plans are.
I am in no waynasking you to wait. Jist if you are busy like I am now, then we can talk later about these books.
Happy Reading :♧

Trust me, I always have plenty to read. Talk later sounds great.

Inkspill wrote: "Cynda wrote: "I re-read The Iliad with the intention of re-read The Odyssey and The Aenied. So I am putting it out there in case someone might be listening and is interested. Early next year I will..."

Okay! Let me know. I have bought The Aeneid (a different edition) already. We can start talking about when onemof us is getting ready to read.

Count me in!! :)

Oh Good Siriusedward! I am adding you to my list. If we can agree on a time next year, we may be able to set up an official buddy read 😎

I'm not sure if this helps.

I was thinking of reading The Odyssey around Spring (starting in April sometime), so then I could follow it with Joyce's Ulysses.

(First 3 months I'm focusing on stories around the French Revolution, including Dicken's Tale of Two Cities.)

Aeneid, I was thinking of reading about late Autumnish.

Has anyone ever read historical translations of Homer's Iliad?

In the proem to his annotated translation into Italian epic verse (1775), Giacomo Casanova – that Casanova – recounts that he spent eleven years studying Homer's work in the original Greek text, Latin sources and Italian, French and English translations. His absolute favourite: the verse translation by Pope (1715-1720).

Some influential literary accounts, all ancient, of the Trojan War alternative to Homer's, and during the Middle Ages preferred to Homer's:
• Dictys Cretensis: Ephemeris belli Trojani;
• Dares Phrygius: De excidio Troiae historia;
• Benoît de Sainte-Maure: Roman de Troie;
• Roman de Troie en Prose, combining the three previous sources.

The Iliad by Homer is the Old School Classic Group Read for March 2026.

This is the spoiler thread and will open March 1, 2026.

I will be reading a new to me translation this time around.

I've read the first book of Caroline Alexander's translation. A fantastic opening with how much happens.

Achilles to Agamemnon:

But the son of Peleus again began railing at the son of Atreus, for he was still in a rage. "Wine-bibber," he cried, "with the face of a dog and the heart of a hind, you never dare to go out with the host in fight, nor yet with our chosen men in ambuscade.

from Book I of Samuel Butler's translation

Robert Fagles translation:

Rage—Goddess, sing the rage of Peleus' son Achilles,
murderous, doomed, that cost the Achaeans countless losses,
hurling down to the House of Death so many sturdy souls,
great fighters' souls, but made their bodies carrion,
feasts for the dogs and birds,
and the will of Zeus was moving toward its end.
Begin, Muse, when the two first broke and clashed,
Agamemnon lord of men and brilliant Achilles.

What god drove them to fight with such a fury?
Apollo the son of Zeus and Leto. Incensed at the king
he swept a fatal plague through the army—men were dying
and all because Agamemnon spurned Apollo's priest.

Richmond Lattimore translation:

Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus' son Achilleus
and its devastation, which put pains thousandfold upon the Achaians,
hurled in their multitudes to the house of Hades strong souls
of heroes, but gave their bodies to be the delicate feasting
of dogs, of all birds, and the will of Zeus was accomplished
since that time when first there stood in division of conflict
Atreus' son the lord of men and brilliant Achilleus.

What god was it then set them together in bitter collision?
Zeus' son and Leto's, Apollo, who in anger at the king drove
the foul pestilence along the host, and the people perished,
since Atreus' son had dishonored Chryses, priest of Apollo,
[...]

Emily Wilson translation:

Goddess, sing of the cataclysmic wrath
of great Achilles, son of Peleus,
which caused the Greeks immeasurable pain
and sent so many noble souls of heroes
to Hades, and made men the spoils of dogs,
a banquet for the birds, and so the plan
of Zeus unfolded—starting with the conflict
between great Agamemnon, lord of men,
and glorious Achilles.
Which god set
the pair apart and prompted them to fight?
Apollo, son of Leto and of Zeus.
Furious at the son of Atreus,
the god spread deadly plague throughout the camp,
so that the common troops began to die,
because their leader, Agamemnon, treated
Chryses, Apollo's priest, with disrespect.

Rieu translation:

Anger - sing, goddess, the anger of Achilles son of Peleus, that accursed anger, which brought the Greeks endless sufferings and sent the mighty souls of many warriors to Hades, leaving their bodies as carrion for the dogs and a feast for the birds; and Zeus' purpose was fulfilled. It all began when Agamemnon lord of men and godlike Achilles quarrelled and parted.

Which of the gods was it that made them quarrel? It was Apollo, son of Zeus and Leto, who started the feud because he was furious with Agamemnon for not respecting his priest Chryses.

Robert Fitzgerald translation:

Anger be now your song, immortal one,
Akhilleus' anger, doomed and ruinous,
that caused the Akhaians loss on bitter loss
and crowded brave souls into the undergloom,
leaving so many dead men—carrion
for dogs and birds; and the will of Zeus was done.
Begin it when the two men first contending
broke with one another—
the Lord Marshal
Agamémnon, Atreus' son, and Prince Akhilleus.

Among the gods, who brought this quarrel on?
The son of Zeus by Lêto. Agamémnon
angered him, so he made a burning wind
of plague rise in the army: rank and file
sickened and died for the ill their chief had done
in despising a man of prayer.

Caroline Alexander translation:

Wrath—sing, goddess, of the ruinous wrath of Peleus' son Achilles,
that inflicted woes without number upon the Achaeans,
hurled forth to Hades many strong souls of warriors
and rendered their bodies prey for the dogs,
for all birds, and the will of Zeus was accomplished;
sing from when they two first stood in conflict—
Atreus' son, lord of men, and godlike Achilles.
Which of the gods, then, set these two together in conflict, to fight?
Apollo, son of Leto and Zeus; who in his rage at the king
raised a virulent plague through the army; the men were dying
because the son of Atreus dishonored the priest Chryses.

Book 4, the war begins at the end of it, it was almost averted.

So many wonderful descriptions, it's good to read this again. When i get a chance I'll see if I can find them from the translations in the public domain.

The one I posted in message 48 always makes me laugh, as insults go, that is super-insulting.