The Atheist Book Club discussion

All of us are familiar with the Ten Commandments. But we tend to dismiss them as just a list the ancient Hebrews used to get people to obey. But think of it: Why this list? Take God out of them a second and what do you have? I think this is a checklist for the basic elements of human society and that religion isn't really what they are all about. Faith in God isn't the issue. Rather it is faith in ourselves, trust in each other. Without that, that is, with the the Ten Commandments (the secularly parts, of course) society can't exist. What do you think?

Let's start with #1: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." It's an example of how most early religions were polytheistic. The followers of this particular god wanted more power. The evolution of religion has been from polytheism to monotheism. It also admits to there being "other gods." A quite remarkable admission. I don't think this one has anything whatsoever to do with me.

#2: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

The idea that God would punish children for the sins of their parents absolutely repels me.

Jimmy wrote: "Let's start with #1: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." It's an example of how most early religions were polytheistic. The followers of this particular god wanted more power. The evolution ..."

And that's exactly the point: the single God was an attempt to monopolize political power in ancient Judea (and ever since). The irony is that this supposed "evolution" in favor of monotheism is in many ways a failure. Theocratic states do not last, for the simple reason that they undermine and destroy the secular faith in common institutions (laws protecting everyone, e.g., not just the faithful).

Monotheism itself has lasted quite well though.

#3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

Not one that concerns me much. The true swears are racial epithets or the words we use to attack each other with. Just swearing by saying Cheese N Rice because I missed a layup seems unimportant.

#4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. This one's outdated now. From a secular standpoint, it's pretty meaningless.

#5. Honor your father and mother. Then you will live a long, full life in the land the Lord your God is giving you (NLT).

Not every father and mother deserves to be honored.

The implication is that you will die young if you don't honor them.

Jimmy wrote: "Monotheism itself has lasted quite well though."

Really? Then why do we have Christians Jews, Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Sunnis, Shias, etc, etc? On the face of it, it looks as if there is really no monotheism at all, just a lot of religions worshiping different gods but claiming exclusivity. (Those who truly, sincerely acknowledge that it is possible to worship one god in different fashions are very rare. Most religions claim to be the one and only true path.)

I agree with Jimmy. The first 4 commandments dictate how to worship god (or get yourself killed). The rest are universal and common to our sense of preservation - without them, the human race would not have evolved to this point.

Cora wrote: "I agree with Jimmy. The first 4 commandments dictate how to worship god (or get yourself killed). The rest are universal and common to our sense of preservation - without them, the human race would..."

This is what my book is all about, actually. Glad to know I'm not alone in thinking this way!

Oh. I thought you might be a trolling X'tian! I'll check out your books...

Cora wrote: "Oh. I thought you might be a trolling X'tian! I'll check out your books..."

Nope. An atheist since I could walk (and that was a long time ago). Please let me know what you think.

Timothy, did you want to have a discussion? Or just sell your book?

Jimmy wrote: "Timothy, did you want to have a discussion? Or just sell your book?"

Discussion primarily. I want to hear what people think to give myself a reality check. Of course I would like to sell copies, but I don't want to make a fool of myself either. These issues are important. Or at least I think so. Besides much of the book is a free download anyway so I'm not asking people to buy anything. It's about the ideas.

Reading, writing, selling and buying books - isn't that what brings us together? (And the fact that we're all godless ;-)).

So Timothy, you said, "I think this is a checklist for the basic elements of human society and that religion isn't really what they are all about." Could you be more specific? So far they look to me to be pretty religious.

Jimmy wrote: "So Timothy, you said, "I think this is a checklist for the basic elements of human society and that religion isn't really what they are all about." Could you be more specific? So far they look to m..."

Well, rather than take space here repeating myself, and because it's also a bit long, read the prologue and introduction in the download for "The Words that Created God." (the most recent one.) The point I make is that there are certain moral prerequisites to our really being able to accept the notion of a single god (though you still don't have to; you can trust/have faith in secular institutions such as rule of law). But read the download. It says it better. (Then read the whole book if you like!)

I'm afraid I'm going to have to drop out of the conversation with that one Timothy. Good luck with your book.

Jimmy wrote: "I'm afraid I'm going to have to drop out of the conversation with that one Timothy. Good luck with your book."

Up to you. It's too bad, though. I was curious to see what you think about the notion of secular faith preceding religious faith. I do not exclude the concept of God--people can believe what they want. I just don't assume it is a given. The 10Cs were written primarily to establish God as a political God (all religions were civic religions in those days, though that was changing), building upon the secular morality already in place.

Cora wrote: "Reading, writing, selling and buying books - isn't that what brings us together? (And the fact that we're all godless ;-))."

Thanks. I appreciate that at lot. After all, where are the new ideas going to come from if someone doesn't write them? And then of course someone has to read them, comment on them, etc, etc. Part of the fun of doing this.

Timothy wrote: "All of us are familiar with the Ten Commandments. But we tend to dismiss them as just a list the ancient Hebrews used to get people to obey. But think of it: Why this list? Take God out of them a s..."

which ten commandments are you referring to? there's more than one version

Naomi wrote: "Timothy wrote: "All of us are familiar with the Ten Commandments. But we tend to dismiss them as just a list the ancient Hebrews used to get people to obey. But think of it: Why this list? Take God..."

Yes, I know. But they overlap and have basically the same content so I use the version from the Revised Standard Version of the Bible. The minor differences do not affect my argument at all.

I'm just wondering how much consideration is given to the new...oh let's say...'scholarship' which tells us that there is really only six or so commandments?

Mark wrote: "I'm just wondering how much consideration is given to the new...oh let's say...'scholarship' which tells us that there is really only six or so commandments?"

I'm not sure what you are asking. The point is not so much how many commandments there are, but their order. Even if God exists (that is a different debate in fact), human beings were not immediately capable of accepting the idea of a single all-powerful god. History shows that clearly. Monotheism came late (according to archeological finds, even the Israelites only stopped worshiping Yahweh's wife Asherah sometime in the Hellenistic era). There were prerequisites to the existence of this type of faith and this is what I am talking about. A re-ordering of the commandments makes this clear. (Of course it also shows how the faithful themselves effectively destroy this faith by abusing the commandments in god's name)

Were any of you aware that the Ten Commandments were not in the original story of Exodus? They were written to support the Hasmonean dynasty's political ambitions, that is, to conquer the territories north of Judea.

True to form. He will be missed!

Timothy, Do you have any sources of a secular ten commandments, excluding the first four? If I'm not wrong, I think that all versions are in a religious context, just not with monotheism.

Also, are you aware that there is also a list of the ten commandments in Deuteronomy starting at verse six? Were these insert after they were originally written as you claim with Exodus. I would like to know your source for the later insertion in Exodus as well.

"The Book of J," by Harold Bloom is supposedly a translation of the earliest version of the Pentateuch. It does not contain the 10 Commandments. Instead Moses worked "40 days and 40 nights" to transcribe the Law that God was giving him. All of this is inference, of course. There are too many versions of the text and no way to date them in sequence. What we know is that no existing text is older than the second century BCE (the stories, of course, are older, but not the texts we have). This is significant. In the second century BCE, the Judeans (Macccabeans) were breaking away from the Ptolemaic Empire and needed justification for their assumption of power. The 10 Cs were a perfect polemic device to add to the story of Exodus (which historically never occurred as related in the Bible. That much is now accepted). What the 10 Cs do is not religious in intent. It presents a list of social responsibilities: submission to authority and duties to others. Obedience and morality, in short. The Maccabees fused religion and politics by having the king also be the high priest of their Yahweh cult. In those days, religion was not a separate institution from government but something that permeated everyone's daily lives. But one has to remember that in those times, polytheism was only slowly giving way to monotheism and the religious attitudes of Judeans were influenced both by a polytheistic past, the cult of Yahweh, and the influx of Greek Stoic thinking, which promoting the idea of a vague "logos," which was not a deity at all.

I wrote a book 'The Objective Perspective: a look at God, Religion & Reality (amazon.com kindle)
It is amazing how Christians react to facts. To them faith is fact