The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov discussion

Discuss translation options/opinions/issues here.

Thanks Moonbutterfly for this link http://www.logosbooksrecords.com/2009...

I currently have the Burgin and O'Connor, but I like to have two translations if possible, so I am probably going to order the Pevear & Volokhonsky translation too. I may email some Slavics profs at Penn for their views, and I'll join MB in doing some further research.

GR review with a great overview of different translations: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

and there's a GR discussion of the different translations here:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/6...

The only one I've read is the Ginsburg. I want to read the Pevear/Volkhonsky version this go-round.

Thanks for that info Moonbutterfly! I have the Ginsburg translation. Boo. I think I'll look for the Pevear & Volokhonsky version...

The Peaver, Volokhonsky translation was very funny, I thought. At least in the scenes that were meant to be funny. I don't know anything about Russian, or the translation of Russian to English, but know that P/V have won awards for their translations of other Russian masters. In the reading itself, P/V's is very smooth. Doesn't have that "arcane" feel that some Russian translations do

Moonbutterfly wrote: "Mirra Ginsburg Translation (1967)
Ginsburg's translation was translated from a censored Soviet text and is therefore incomplete. Many advised against this translation.

Michael Glenny Translation ..."

Thanks so much for these overviews, MB! They go nicely with the links I found.

I had to laugh at this translation: ""To hell with everything, it's time to take that Kislovodsk vacation." (Karpelson)" Eek.

Richard and Mark, I'll be joining you with the P/V translation, I think.

Moonbutterfly wrote: "That is good to know. I think it comes down to P&V and Burgin & O’Connor."

Agreed.

Why does Ginsburg have to have to coolest cover though? *pout*

WHY YOU NO TRANSLATE BULKAGOV, JAY RUBIN?!?

"Fuck this. I go to Kislovodsk now." (Rubin)

I am starting with the Burgin/O'Connor this go around - I've never read M&M before and this is the copy I have on my shelf. I may try to find P&V at the library if I have time. . .

I least I have the cool green cover from Ginsberg I suppose...

I'm reading the one that penkey read.

I'm going to read one with a pretty cover that matches my bookshelves.

Catie wrote: "Oh maaaaaaan. I didn't know that about the MG translation. I thought I was all set! I am not all set."

me too :-\

For reference:

Mirra Ginsburg Translation (1967)
Ginsburg's translation was translated from a censored Soviet text and is therefore incomplete. Many advised against this translation.




Michael Glenny Translation (1967)
Russian readers claim there are mistakes in the text. Other readers state they prefer this translation, because it "flows" better.




Diana Burgin & Katherine Tiernan O’Connor (1993)
Several literary critics have hailed the Burgin/Tiernan O’Connor translation as the most accurate and complete English translation, particularly when read in tandem with the matching annotations by Bulgakov's biographer, Ellendea Proffer. [Master and Margarita: A Critical Companion by Laura Weeks]





Richard Pevear & Larissa Volokhonsky (1997)
Russian readers states this translation sticks more to the original Russian. One criticism is that P&V "doesn't get the humor at all", although technically accurate.

Ian wrote: "I'm going to read one with a pretty cover that matches my bookshelves."

And which one would that be? Are you going with earth tones or more vibrant colors?

I'm glad you won't be clashing with your study furniture. That's very important.

Mary wrote: "I least I have the cool green cover from Ginsberg I suppose..."

You could always make a color copy of the Ginsburg cover and put it over one of the other books..... (Harkening back to when I used to have to make covers out of brown paper bags for school books.)

Like Jayne Anne Phillips Lark and Termite!

My library has two translations in circulation: Pevear/Volokhonsky & Burgin/O'Connor. There is already a hold queue on both versions! I've claimed both of them until we decide which one we're reading. I hope this isn't going to happen again where I'll be a month lagged behind the rest of you. :)

Here's a little more info:

Pevear/Volokhonsky
ISBN: 0141180145 (pbk.)
Physical Description: xix, 411 p. ;20 cm.
Publisher: London : Penguin, 1997.

Burgin/O'Connor
ISBN: 0679760806
Physical Description: 372 p. ;21 cm.
Edition: 1st Vintage International ed.
Publisher: New York : Vintage Books, 1996.

Jason wrote: "My library has two translations in circulation: Pevear/Volokhonsky & Burgin/O'Connor. There is already a hold queue on both versions! I've claimed both of them until we decide which one we're readi..."

Jason, I have a feeling that either of these translations will work - they are both based on the complete text, and it may be interesting to compare translations for important passages. I say that you should snag whichever one becomes available first in your library!

The MG is closer to the colour of my shelving, but I like the cat in the B&O more. I have bought all of the P&V translations of Dostoevsky and am disappointed that they mightn't have a sense of humour.

My To-Get shelf and To-Read shelf are both bulging, but even with the P'n'V edition sitting on the shelf waiting, dang, this B'n'O translation is looking nice, too. A reader/reviewer on Amazon mentioned a specific example on the first page:

B/O: "Give me some Narzan water," said Berlioz.

P/V: "Give us seltzer," Berlioz asked.

According to this reviewer, Narzan is a popular mineral water and so the name brand would've registered with Russian readers, where 'seltzer' sounds much more common.

Makes me curious what other kinds of nuances the B/O edition might have

I'm definitely getting the P&V to go along with the B&O that I already have. I have to decide how to handle having two translations while I am reading the first time through. I'm concerned about the sense of humor issues with P&V too, but I figure I can compare both translations and decide which works best.

I am laughing at myself, because I was complaining about having too many books on my tbr shelf, and now I am planning to read multiple translations at once. I think I may need some professional help.

I was going to ask about the difference in the translations/which version has the best cover kitty and then this thread answered questions I didn't even think to ask yet. Thanks, guys!

Richard wrote: "The only one I've read is the Ginsburg. I want to read the Pevear/Volkhonsky version this go-round."

Halleluya! I have the latter. W00t!

Actually it's a pity about the censorship contained in the Ginsberg, because i actually seem to prefer the tone of the Ginsberg.

Karpelson seems ... let's just say i'm grateful i'm not stuck with that one.

For those readers who have copies of the censored Ginsberg, would any of you be interested in documenting the manner in which is was censored? Which passages changed, crossed out, etc? This would only be approximate given the distancing of translation but would shed some light on the history of the text. Or perhaps one of the annotated editions by other translators contain this information. Or an on-line source?

Nathan "N.R." wrote: "For those readers who have copies of the censored Ginsberg, would any of you be interested in documenting the manner in which is was censored? Which passages changed, crossed out, etc? This would..."

The Ginsberg version is the one I own but I'll be picking up a copy of the Pevear/Volkhonsky translation. It will be interesting to see which parts were excluded. I'll try to compare the two, but speedy-reader-Kris will surely get to it before I do!

Mary wrote: "The Ginsberg version is the one I own but I'll be picking up a copy of the Pevear/Volkhonsky translation. It will be interesting to see which parts were excluded. I'll try to compare the two, but speedy-reader-Kris will surely get to it before I do!
"

For those savvy about such things, could we create a document or database to which multiple folks could contribute? Some kind of 'annotations regarding censorship'? It would need to include some way to indicate whether it is a clear case of censorship or merely a possible difference of translation.

Nathan "N.R." wrote: "For those savvy about such things, could we create a document or database to which multiple folks could contribute? Some kind of 'annotations regarding censorship'? It would need to include some way to indicate whether it is a clear case of censorship or merely a possible difference of translation. "

This sounds like it could be a great idea. We could set up a group wiki on a free wiki site, or, if interested members have gmail accounts, we could set up a shared document. (I've only used their version of word before - they also have a spreadsheet version, but I haven't used it so I am not sure how adaptable that would be.) I'll play around with some options, but I am open to recommendations from the group! (I'll also check with my online learning support team at Penn when I get back from vacation to see if they have recommendations.)

I'm also going to check with some professorsI know in Penn's Slavics department to find out whether there are any good annotations that specify what was censored from M&M. I looked in B&O, but they didn't seem to be including that information in their annotations. There is a reference to an article by Douglas Fiene that could be of interest -- it's mentioned on page 243 of The Master and Margarita: A Critical Companion edited by Laura Weeks (see the reference under the background reading folder), and a preview is up under Google Books that includes page 243, so you can look at it there. I'm not sure whether the article translates the passages it is comparing or whether that is all in Russian.

"Mirra Ginsburg (Grove Press, 1967) Ginsburg's translation is lively and entertaining, but it was unfortunately made from the 1967 Soviet text without the advantage of the censored sections. As a result, it mirrors the censored version, including deletion of passages about the actions of the secret police and most of Nikanor Ivanovich's dream (Ch. 15)."
http://cr.middlebury.edu/bulgakov/pub...

"A censored version (12% of the text removed and still more changed) of the book was first published in Moscow magazine (no. 11, 1966 and no. 1, 1967).[4] The text of all the omitted and changed parts, with indications of the places of modification, was published on a samizdat basis. In 1967 the publisher Posev (Frankfurt) printed a version produced with the aid of these inserts.

In the Soviet Union, the first complete version, prepared by Anna Saakyants, was published by Khudozhestvennaya Literatura in 1973, based on the version of the beginning of 1940 proofread by the publisher. This version remained the canonical edition until 1989, when the last version was prepared by literature expert Lidiya Yanovskaya based on all available manuscripts."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mast...

I just found the Middlebury site, too, Nathan! I'm adding it to the background folder.

Nathan "N.R." wrote: "For those readers who have copies of the censored Ginsberg, would any of you be interested in documenting the manner in which is was censored? Which passages changed, crossed out, etc? This would..."

Yes, i was thinking along those lines as well. I might actually want to try and get hold of a Ginsberg as well.

Kris wrote: "I am laughing at myself, because I was complaining about having too many books on my tbr shelf, and now I am planning to read multiple translations at once. I think I may need some professional help."

This was cracking me up last night as I copied down the examples from the Amazon review! We were just complaining about it, and now we're both thinking of tackling two different copies of the same book. Books make people do strange things, I'm afraid!

I'm excited about the Master and Margarita group read, because I've wanted to read this for a while and now I have a good excuse. I get so stressed about translations, though. Today I finally settled on the Burgin & O'Connor. I was leaning towards Ginsburg, but I don't want a censored version.

I might do Burgin/O'Connor, too.

Mark wrote: "This was cracking me up last night as I copied down the examples from the Amazon review! We were just complaining about it, and now we're both thinking of tackling two different copies of the same book. Books make people do strange things, I'm afraid! ."
It's even worse, Mark - I might get Ginsburg too, which will make three editions. Sigh.

Kris, Kris, Kris, now you're just being a masochist!

See if you can put each edition in an headlock at your library, Jason!

Mark wrote: "Kris, Kris, Kris, now you're just being a masochist!

See if you can put each edition in an headlock at your library, Jason!"

I need an intervention. :(

I hereby call this meeting to order. Kris R., it has come to the attention of the court that you have been indulging in an inordinate amount of to-getting. We hereby decree, bearing in mind our word is law: Go forward, and enjoy thyself! Case dismissed!

Mark wrote: "I hereby call this meeting to order. Kris R., it has come to the attention of the court that you have been indulging in an inordinate amount of to-getting. We hereby decree, bearing in mind our wor..."

Let the to-getting commence!!

Mary and I have received some questions about whether the group will have one official translation prescribed. We've discussed this, and decided that we are more comfortable letting each of you decide which version (or versions) you want to read for the group read. We posted some information on translations in the group description, in which we generally recommend either Burgin & O'Connor or Pevear & Volokhonsky for the complete version or Ginsburg for the censored version, but we are happy for each member to choose whichever translation looks best to them. We think that as along as we're all clear about which version we are reading in the book discussion threads, we should have good discussions about the books - and perhaps multiple versions will lead to some interesting conversations about translation, censorship, etc. We're hoping this sounds ok - any questions or concerns, please let us know!

I'm thinking of ordering the Glenny translation because it is in the attractive hardback of Everyman's Library, with the red thread book mark. If all things are equal. Somebody stop me if I'm making a mistake. http://www.amazon.com/Margarita-Every...

Steve wrote: "I'm thinking of ordering the Glenny translation because it is in the attractive hardback of Everyman's Library, with the red thread book mark. If all things are equal. Somebody stop me if I'm mak..."

Steve, it's great to have you with us! Re. the Glenny - some links under comments 3, 5, and 6 in this thread may help you to make a decision- they have comparisons of the different translations as well as some background on what they have and what they may be missing. MB also did a great job summarizing some of the views she read while she was researching this: "Michael Glenny Translation (1967)
Russian readers claim there are mistakes in the text. Other readers state they prefer this translation, because it "flows" better."

I think that the excerpts from translations under these comments are really helpful, since you can read them and get a sense of the style and voice in each. It seems that, when reading the censored version, some readers prefer Glenny's style, while others dislike it. Different tastes....

BTW, if you want one of the non-censored editions, that will leave you with Burgin & O'Connor or Pevear & Volokhonsky.

Kris wrote: "Steve wrote: "I'm thinking of ordering the Glenny translation because it is in the attractive hardback of Everyman's Library, with the red thread book mark. If all things are equal. Somebody stop..."

Thank you for drawing my attention to specific comments. I was a little overwhelmed with the mass of material here. I will try to figure out how bad the censorship is before making a decision. "A few mistakes" from the Russian will not be a problem. A giant swath of material cut to please a commissar, well, that would be a problem. Thanks.

Steve, it's completely understandable that you don't want to wade through tons of background! MB's link gives a good brief overview of the different editions: http://www.logosbooksrecords.com/2009...
According to a note on translations from The Master and Margarita: A Critical Companion, the censored versions were heavily censored--over 100 passages. The omitted passages were published later in two different versions in two different texts. The Ginsburg is based on one of these, and the Glenny on another. Weeks describes Glenny as "gloss[ing] over difficult points and smooth[ing] out Bulgakov's syntax considerably." (243) The P&V and B&O are based on both of the previously published articles containing censored passages, so they are considered to be the most complete.