Indian Readers discussion

Asura- Tale of The Vanquished
Have already got the book with me (so also, Chowringhee - the other group read for Aug), courtesy irresistible Homeshop 18 offer. Am eager to start.

Hopefully I will join this discussion.. Want to read this..

If anyone has completed it, let's start the discussion. Can't wait to discuss it!

am starting on CHowringhee first. So it will take a few days more for me to start, though I have a crisp, fresh book waiting to be read

It simply mind blowing to look at the other angle in the Ramayana story i am slowly falling in love with the wit of Ravana ....where he humanises and understands his emotions well ....the logic he gives is mindblowing ...

I didn't even realise and I fell for Bhadra instead. I am an underdog and I know how it feels. So between Ravana & Bhadra, it's a tie!

I am finding the Swami Bhakti aka love for his King of Bhadra endearing ....Ravana must be somewhere a great person to inspire such love from Bhadra

this is a small incident from the book i wish to discuss ...the humiliation of Mandodari by angada and his troops

An extract from Wiki
The Valmiki Ramayana narrates: When all of Ravana's sons and warriors die, Ravana organizes a yajna ("fire sacrifice") to assure his victory. Rama sends a troop of monkeys headed by Hanuman and the monkey prince Angada to destroy this yajna. The monkeys create havoc in Ravana's palace, but Ravana continues the yajna. Angada drags Mandodari by her hair in front of Ravana. Mandodari pleads to her husband to save her and reminds him what Rama is doing for his wife. The enraged Ravana abandons the yajna and strikes Angada with his sword. With the yajna disturbed, Angada's purpose is served and he leaves Mandodari and escapes. Mandodari again implores Ravana to surrender Sita to Rama, but he refuses.[8]

Other Ramayana adaptations present more gruesome descriptions of the incident.
The Krittivasi Ramayan narrates that the monkeys dragged Mandodari and tore off her clothes.
In Bicitra Ramayana, it is Hanuman who humiliates Mandodari.
The Thai adaptation Ramakien narrates a symbolic rape of Mandodari. Hanuman sleeps with her in the form of Ravana and destroys her chastity, which protects Ravana's life

A few questions that i have....
Why did Rama not stop this ? After this happened atleast he should have made Angada apologise to Mandodari .....so what if she is enemy's wife ....she is a Queen and she deserves the respect....

Ravana not matter what for me is a good husband as he does not doubt the chasity of his wife ...he does not subject her to any test instead consoles her .....
By abandoning Sita, Rama does what his patriarchal society expects of him. Is that just?

When Surpanakha proposed to Rama first and then Laxmana they could have told her no in a much better manner ....cutting off nose in a way is a symbolic rape of her dignity ...and as a king as a brother ...Ravana had to take revenge....

Ghar ka bhedi lanka dhaye i hope i have got this saying right ....it was vibhishana who cheated his brother and because of him Rama and co got the way to kill Ravana

Ravana never forces Sita to do anything against her will ..

Anjali wrote: "this is a small incident from the book i wish to discuss ...the humiliation of Mandodari by angada and his troops

An extract from Wiki
The Valmiki Ramayana narrates: When all of Ravana's sons and..."

In a stiff patriarcial society, especially in higher ranks or caste or class. Honour and fame of man is measured in terms of what he covets(preferably through tough competition) and maintains as his possession. Throne, women, hell even head of the killed deer has to symbolise that man's supermacy. Rama waged war against Ravana not particularly out of love towards Sita or to protect the honour of that lady, but just to retrieve his possession and his honour which is at stake.

Even Ravana wasn't any better. There is a story that he gets a curse from a woman he abducts, that if he try forcing him on any women against their wish he will die.

Think the crux is Ravana isn't the baddest guy, he is just as bad as every other male chauvinist of that age. He lost and the winner got to write the epic in their name.

PS. Even Menelaus waged war against Troy for the same reason didn't he.

Aravind wrote: "PS. Even Menelaus waged war against Troy for the same reason didn't he"

Yeah, But there it was plainly put as it is. But here, one celebrated as God and Other as demon..

Btw, I've started reading the book. I like the rationalistic view of the book till now. Particularly most of Ravana's questions on the rituals, castes and other stuffs are mine as well.. So I could relate to Ravana so easily..

Also I liked the fact that the author concurred with the view of rationalists who claims the indigenous people were considered demons because of their tribal living by the foreign army who called themselves devas..

I too started the book. So far, so good.
Yes, I agree with it, the Dravidans are mostly considered demonish by Aryans, or so is what I have made of it.

sounds interesting..wl hv to get hold of this one fast!!

I also sometimes wonder that there were so many flaws to Ramas decisions or acts-- to call him King Rama is ok (as he did whatever he did to perform his role as a king) but why call him or rather believe him as "Lord" ??

Smitha wrote: "...the Dravidans are mostly considered demonish by Aryans, or so is what I have made of it."
This is a very upsetting notion. When I read Ramayana by C. Rajagopalachari he comments on this to say that we can't banish an entire race as "Demons" or "Asuras". He goes on to say that Asuras were those individuals who sinned against others, they would eat raw meat and would have no ethics wrt society, marriage etc. This is my personal opinion but I feel that somewhere we have interpreted the epic in a highly racial and discriminating manner. Discrimination is a crime which can be understood only by its victims!

@Anjali, isn't your question rhetorical? Aravind has outlined it so well- stiff patriarcial society! Why rape is considered a shame only for the female victim, why widows are still outcasts if not driven to Sati, why one prefers a son to a daughter are questions rather rhetorical. I am no feminist but to consider a female inferior to a male is inhuman. When I read Iliad, I got the same feeling- disgusted! People offer daughters and wives and women in battles as if they were some currency to validate victories. You get to sleep with so and so person's wife or such and such man's virgin daughter if you win. Wow! Again, Rajaji says that we can't really judge customs from an another age.

Rosun wrote: "When I read Ramayana by C. Rajagopalachari he comments on this to say that we can't banish an entire race as "Demons" or "Asuras". He goes on to say that Asuras were those individuals who sinned against others, they would eat raw meat and would have no ethics wrt society, marriage etc..."

I do not agree with Rajaji on this. If what he says is true, how come there were no sinned persons, living in the civilized society, were not called as Asuras?

Also, in Indian mythology, all the depictions of Asuras points to the tribes and their activities..

Not only in this book, there are a lot of atheistic/rationalistic views of Ramayana tell the same that the Dravidians who were there all over India had been drove out of north by the invading Aryans..

In that case there was no wonder that the Aryan literature 'Ramayana' depicted the Dravidians as Asuras as that was the common belief that time..

The words Demon/Devil evolved from 'Deva'. As per ancient Persian culture Devas are demons and Ahura(asura) are gods.

whatever said and done, its our behavior what makes us 'devas' or 'asuras' - and yes, we can't discriminate, there is good and bad in all races.
I have so many doubts about the Gods I read about, that I stop thinking altogether as I get scared that I maybe having 'blasphemous' thoughts.

I like the intepretation of Ravanas Ten heads and the way he justifies his emotions ....like Ravana even i feel it is very difficult to remain detached as these are the very thoughts which make me human ....as long as these emotions do not overide the fairness of a situation i guess it is ok....

The part of Ramayana which makes the feminist in me cringe is perhaps the abondonment of Sita....If Rama could prove that Ahalya was pure and Shabari was good ...Then why could he not prove that his wife was chaste...

A few wquestions arise

Dasharath asks Rama to leave to the forest for his Vachan/word....but as a khastriya and the crown prince is it not his duty to abide by his citizens wishes that he stays back to serve them....if the logic applies that his fathers word is paramount ...then in the same way was his word during marraige to his wife that he will stand by her no matter what happens ,is it not important?. Then why does he abondon her

Why does Rama ask for a second Chasity test ...since after the first one he still abondoned her ?

@Smitha, I like your last statement... very much! :D

@Anjali, the second chastity test is really silly and uncalled for. Personally, I feel this was one of the most disturbing parts of the Ramayana.

Anjali wrote: "I like the intepretation of Ravanas Ten heads and the way he justifies his emotions ....like Ravana even i feel it is very difficult to remain detached as these are the very thoughts which make me ..."

Second time it was not a chastity test, he asks Lakshmana to kill her. Lakshman doesn't do that. Isn't that how the story goes?


Actually speaking the whole idea of re-telling a tale is to attempt to redressed the culture that it has inspired. If one takes this story as just another story, there is no harm. But when someone glorifies or admonish something and if that seeps into the culture we have to go to its root and correct it.

The problem with culturalising something is that it instantly blinds us. We just follow it because that is a culture.

some say that the chastity test thing was later on added. The real Ramayana ends after Rama brings back Sita from Lanka.

In the Buddhist Jataka, the Dasarath Jataka as it is called, where Ram and Sita are brother and sister...and rule as consorts

Adbhuta Ramayana and the Tamil story of Satakanthavana even give Sita a heroic character: when the ten-headed Ravana is killed, another appears with a hundred heads; Rama cannot handle this new menace, so it is Sita who goes to war and slays the new demon.

I like the portrayal of Ravana very much in this book.. He is just like any of us.. The characterization is so good that though I could see he is making mistakes I couldn't hate him.. May be because we are all doing the same mistakes all the day..

Anjali wrote: "I like the intepretation of Ravanas Ten heads and the way he justifies his emotions ....like Ravana even i feel it is very difficult to remain detached as these are the very thoughts which make me ..."

Even I liked that part very much and in fact the reasons given by Ravana for not let go off these emotions made more sense to me than the advice given by Mahabali..

Smitha wrote: "I stop thinking altogether as I get scared that I maybe having 'blasphemous' thoughts. ..."

LOL.. True.. Once you start thinking, you'll realise there is no God.. :P

Thank you for the encouragement you had given. You may perhaps remember that Deccan Chronicle, Deccan Herald, Indian Express, Verve, Afternoon voice, The Bhavan's journal, Time out, Trinity mirror etc had carried my interviews/ feature about the book, reviews etc over the past three - four weeks. Now, it is with immense pleasure, I would like to inform you that THE HINDU has carried an article about ASURA- Tale of the vanquished today

Please see the link in case you are not able to get an actual physical copy

THE HINDU ON ASURA

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/...

Thanks and gratitude to all of you who had encouraged me in my literary pursuit

Regards

Kumbhakarna at least fought valiantly against the army of Rama, causing great damage. Ultimately, he was slain by Laxmana with the help of a divine missile. Though he fought on the side of evil, his devotion to Ravana and his loyalty to his kinsmen is highly praised, and is contrasted favorably with the "treachery" of his brother Vibhishana, who fought on Rama's side.
According to the Shiva Purana, Kumbhakarna had a son called Bheema who fled to Dakini - on the ranges of the Sahyadri mountains with his mother Karkati. Karkati told Bhima, that his father was killed by Ram the avatara of Vishnu in the great war. This infuriated Bhima and he vowed to avenge Lord Vishnu.Bheema took an oath to destroy Lord Vishnu and began a campaign of terror based on a boon provided by Lord Brahma. When Bheema defeated a devotee of Lord Shiva and interrupted his penances, Lord Shiva destroyed Bheema and manifested himself at that location in the form of the Bheemashankar Jyotirlinga

Sherin and myself had a chance to meet the author of ASURA Anand Neelakantan on Sun at just books AECS layout branch....

It was a book reading plus a Q & A session ....

After the session i had some time to speak to Anand and get my copy authographed and i was thrilled ....

He also said that the next book is from the point of Suyodhana ....the veiwpoint of the Kauravas...

Lovely!!!

Just finished the book.. It was wonderful to read a popular fiction with the rationalistic thoughts on Ramayana..

I think Ravana was better than Bhadra. Though both are having their own flaws, Ravana at least try to do what he thought right, unless Bhadra who was not trying anything but keep blaming the government like many in present.. What do you guys think?

Just started reading the book...I am hooked. The language is modern and the way the things have been portrayed is refreshing. Reading the Ramayana devoid of the supernatural feels strange, but somehow you tend to connect to the characters a lot better.

I am glad you liked it @Mansee, else I would have been grilled...:)

Rosun wrote: "I am glad you liked it @Mansee, else I would have been grilled...:)"

Rosun- the lovely commment was for Anjali that she and Sherin met the author- I havent finished the book yet to comment on the book...just read 170 pages so far...but nice to read from Ravanas perspective for sure!

Mansee wrote: "Rosun wrote: "I am glad you liked it @Mansee, else I would have been grilled...:)"

Rosun- the lovely commment was for Anjali that she and Sherin met the author- I havent finished the book yet to c..."

Thanks Mansee ...he was very warm and friendly .... i was able to speak to him for a bit :)