Into the Forest discussion

Most of the focus has been on the fairy tale princess, but let's look at the prince. In some movies or stories the poor guy isn't even given a name. In some cases, he gets really lucky while in others he goes blind and wanders in the desert.

And then there is Sleeping Beauty. Now the prince in the older versions of Sleeping Beauty rapes the princess while she is still asleep. She doesn't wake up at all, until she give birth to twins. In some cases, the prince is already married. What does that say about princes?

And if we look at fairy tales, not legends, but fairy and folk tales, the more heroic figures tend to be the non-princes. Sometimes you might have the youngest prince does the job, but usually he gets the aid of enchanted princess or queen (or sometimes Fairy). In those cases, as in Beauty and the Beast, the prince is the one who must be saved.

Are romance novels and thier heroes an outgrowth of fairy tale princes? Does the romantic hero in such novels present an unrealstic form of men as the fairy tale princess do of women?

Here's one thought I had after reading your post, Chris. I think one reason why it is the little man in fairy tales, the hard working, poor protagonist that obtains the bean, that inherits a cat, that passes three tests and acquires the girl, is because these tales are primarily told by poor people, thus the heroes are poor folk. However, women had a very different place in society than men, poor or rich. I feel like one interpretation of female protagonists who are princesses is that they demonstrate how there is little difference in the way a poor woman and a rich woman are treated. By having a princess raped, her child threatened, forced into hard labor and hunger, it illuminates to an even greater degree women's value in society. But there was great difference between a prince and a pauper--in how they were treated, how they acted, etc. Thus the male hero of the fairy tale tends to be a poor man who acquires wealth, and the heroine a woman--poor or otherwise--who reunites/creates family. Vast generalization there; many tales have nothing to do with either!

I don't read a lot of romances, primarily because the heroes are so unrealistic. I feel like they have little to do with fairy tales and more to do, once again, with the Disney reincarnation of princes and fairy tales. Yet, I see the legitimacy of the genre (I'm disagreeing with myself here). Women desire to feel special, everyone does, and the princes in these novels put the woman first, value her ideas and thoughts and self. The princes in these novels address the ideas of finding self-worth, so even though they are unrealistic, they still perform a valuable role. When I read Women who Run with the Wolves by Clarissa Pinkola Estes, she interprets many fairy/folk tales by having each character within the tale represent an emotion/need in the woman. So I wonder if fairy tale romances do that for the women and men who read them? The prince is the need in the person reading it, the need to find self-acceptance and self-love, for the weaker part of oneself to be rescued and uplifted into importance.

I'm not sure I answered your questions at all, Chris! I see very little of actual fairy tales in romance novels. However, I do see the idealization of fairy tale, and I don't know if that's necessarily bad. I think it is dangerous and unfair to apply false expectations on men and relationships, certainly. But if the novels serve by enabling the reader to find self-love and worth, than that's wonderful.

there are plenty of peasant girls in the fairy tales who win the prince. East of the Sun, West of the Moon, Brother And Sister, Catherine and Her Fate (well, a merchant's daughter, but still common), The Feather of Finist the Falcon

I forget where I read that when the hero(ine) is a peasant who wins the prince(ss), the story is about a lucky chance, but when the character is of royal blood, forced into a menial position, that it's about someone who's been wronged.

Mary wrote: "there are plenty of peasant girls in the fairy tales who win the prince. East of the Sun, West of the Moon, Brother And Sister, Catherine and Her Fate (well, a merchant's daughter, but still commo..."

That's a good point, Mary.