Arthuriana -- all things King Arthur ! discussion

Next year I will travel to England, I have as goal to visit all possible Arthurians places, I'd like to help me create a tour, I thought to go to Glastonbury, Tintagel, Cornwall, but I want to add more places to visit, I heard something about the Arthurian Archive in a library in Wales, in the Mold county and i want to go there also
¿what else recomend me?

Glastonbury and Tintagel are both gorgeous places to visit with loads of Athuriana.

Stonehenge would seem like a natural place to visit if you've read The History of the Kings of Britain (and worth visiting anyway, aside from it's Arthurian connection).

If you're in South Wales then Caerleon on Usk is a great place to visit. Caerleon is frequently mentioned in Arthurian tales and the Roman amphitheatre is sometimes said to have been an inspiration for the Round Table (but that could be more for tourism!). Tennyson stayed in Caerleon while writing Idylls of the King so that he could soak up the atmosphere. Be aware, though, that the local emphasis is more on the Romans than on Arthur (at least it was when I visited in 1999!).

The earliest substantial narrative (from around 1100) involving Arthur is Culhwch and Olwen, large parts of which are set in Pembrokeshire, in West Wales, especially up on the Preseli Hills. From the top on a clear day you can see to the north Mount Snowdon (the highest mountain in Wales, where Arthurian folktales cluster), the Brecon Beacons to the east (where a 12th-century writer, Gerald of Wales, located Arthur's Seat), to the south the coast of Devon en route to Cornwall, and to the west (if you're really lucky) the coast of Ireland from where the giant boar Twrch Trwyth originated that Arthur's men hunted over the Preseli Hills.

The Arthurian Library is indeed in Mold, with a substantial number of books and journals, but you'll need to spend hours if not days and months there to get the most out of it!

Not too far from Glastonbury is the hillfort of South Cadbury. There's not much to see there apart from earth ramparts, but in the 1960s a huge archaeological dig uncovered enough evidence to show that in the Dark Ages a massive timber hall was built on the top, and stone walls all around the topmost ramparts. Whether this was really Camelot and the hall built by Arthur, well, that's another question!

There are a couple of useful guidebooks to Arthurian Britain, one by Neil Fairburn (with lovely monochrome photographs and maps) and the other by Geoffrey Ashe, but they were published a while ago and I suspect are no longer in print; try Amazon or other online sites, and good luck!

Thanks Michael and Chris ^_^

Walk Hadrian's wall.
Climb Arthur's Seat in Edinburgh.
Visit Winchester.
Go to Anglesey.
Storm the Orkneys and see where Mordred and Gawain played.

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Walk Hadrian's wall.
Climb Arthur's Seat in Edinburgh.
Visit Winchester.
Go to Anglesey.
Storm the Orkneys and see where Mordred and Gawain played."

I want to do those, too!

Edit: Actually, I will be doing #2 in a few weeks :-)

If the Wx is good then I'd recommend a pint in the Pear Tree beer garden after the hike up the Crags.

Morganu wrote: "I heard something about the Arthurian Archive in a library in Wales, in the Mold county ..."

Hello, Morganu! I've visited the Arthurian Collection, and I've written about it here. I hope that helps!

Hello, Morganu! I've visited the Arthurian Collection, and I've written about it here. I hope that helps!

Good introduction in your link, Julie, and it pretty much chimes in with what I remember when I visited last year. I hadn't made an appointment, but I did get a recommendation from one of the library staff at the main public library when I enquired about it so I managed to get in about an hour or so's browsing on the same day. I used to edit an Arthurian journal, and it was pleasing to see that some of the issues were there in a box folder.

Wow! Thank you so much Julie!!!

Chris wrote: "I used to edit an Arthurian journal, and it was pleasing to see that some of the issues were there in a box folder ..."

That is awesome, Chris! Well done. I'd love to feel that something I wrote was destined to have a place in the Collection - but alas I 'only' see an Arthurian novel in my future, so it will have to remain a day-dream, I should think.

Morganu wrote: "Wow! Thank you so much Julie!!!"

Not a problem, hon! I hope you have a wonderful time. :-)

I don't think anyone has mentioned Caerfyrddin - Carmarthen which in Welsh means the citadel/castle of Myrddin - Merlin. Carmarthen would make a natural break between Caerleon and Cardiff and Pemrokehire. See
http://www.inspirationalwales.com/kin...
The National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth may also have interesting books and artifacts, as they hold the complete national collections. That would be on the way north from Pembrokeshire to Y Wyddfa - Snowdon, Aberystwyth lying just to the south of the Yr Eyri - the Snowdonia National Park.
From there you could visit Anglesey and then Eastward along the North Wales coast to Mold.

M and G wrote: "I don't think anyone has mentioned Caerfyrddin - Carmarthen which in Welsh means the citadel/castle of Myrddin - Merlin. Carmarthen would make a natural break between Caerleon and Cardiff and Pemro..."

Yes, it's true that Carmarthen claims to derive its name from Myrddin, along the lines of the 'castle' of Myrddin (changed in the 12th century to Merlin, perhaps because the Welsh name looked too much like the French word merde). However, it's more likely the other way round, that the name of Myrddin has been foisted on the town!

The Latin, derived from a Celtic name, was Moridunum, 'sea-fort', with the different elements surviving in Modern Welsh as môr, 'sea' and dinas, 'city', 'town' or 'fort'. The meaning of the last element would have become forgotten, and so caer would have been added to produce something like caer+moridun(um), becoming (with the 'm' mutating to a 'v' sound in Welsh) Caerfyrddin and Carmarthen in English.

When the meaning of the new second element, myrddin (from Moridunum, if you remember!), was in its turn forgotten, it was natural to assume that the town was named after somebody or other, and the name Myrddin may thus have been created. This seems to have happened some time before the 12th century, when Geoffrey of Monmouth recast Myrddin as Merlin.

Mind you, if Merlin hadn't been associated with the town we wouldn't have had The Black Book of Carmarthen (13th-century, now in the National Library of Wales at Aberystwyth) which contains some of the oldest surviving poems in Welsh about Myrddin, found nowhere else, and our understanding of Arthur's wizard would be so much poorer!

A useful (if now a bit dated) book on all this is The Quest for Merlin by Nikolai Tolstoy.

M and G wrote: "I don't think anyone has mentioned Caerfyrddin - Carmarthen which in Welsh means the citadel/castle of Myrddin - Merlin. Carmarthen would make a natural break between Caerleon and Cardiff and Pemro..."

Definitely Wales will be the most important point of my trip, when i read the Mabinogion i feel great emotion. visit wales will make more closer with the historical Arthur king of the silurians!!
Thanks so much

the historical Arthur king of the silurians

Whoops, Morganu! I would be very careful with a title like that! The Celtic tribe of the Silures was associated with southeast Wales, but other parts of Wales (not to mention Cornwall, Scotland, parts of England and even Brittany also claim him!

(For example, the southwest part of Wales where I now live, formerly called Dyfed after the Demetae tribe, did have a 6th-century individual called Arthur son of Peter who is mentioned in two different genealogies, though it is unlikely that he is the Arthur of legend.)

In any case, the idea that Arthur was a 'king of the Silures' is speculation, based on rather dodgy evidence, many assertions and some special pleading. It is unlikely that the tribe survived as a unified peoples after nearly four centuries of Roman rule and subsequent political upheaval.

Ooohhh i don't know that! O_O thanks for share!

@Chris - we are pretty well neighbours then, I have lived in Ceredigion for the last 30+ years, down the road from a place where the White Book of Rhydderch was found, and where it is thought Welsh cobs were first bred. All our river names are related to that.

M and G wrote: "@Chris - we are pretty well neighbours then, I have lived in Ceredigion for the last 30+ years, down the road from a place where the White Book of Rhydderch was found, and where it is thought Welsh..."

And I see that, like me, you are a retired musician, appropriate enough in the Land of Song!

Where in Ceredigion was the White Book actually found? And have you read The Origins of the Four Branches of the Mabinogi by Andrew Breeze? He believes he has identified the author of the Mabinogi as Gwenllian who, unusually even for a noblewoman, died in battle, defending Kidwelly Castle in the early 12th century.

What a combination, music, my favourite Welsh girl's name and the Mabinogion. I haven't read the Andrew Breeze I'm afraid. The White Book was found at Parc Rhydderch which is a farm we can see from our window the other side of the Aeron* from us. Aeron named for the war goddess and our river the March running into it. We named the tributary stream the Ebol!
*I spent an Eisteddfod afternoon chatting to the National Library representatives who had a display when the Urdd Eisteddfod was held at Llanerchaeron where we used to be volunteers. I used to put on a summer string orchestra course and concert there too.
Need to read quicker, so much to fit in, so little time.

M and G wrote: "What a combination, music, my favourite Welsh girl's name and the Mabinogion. I haven't read the Andrew Breeze I'm afraid... Need to read quicker, so much to fit in, so little time."

Thanks for this info on the White Book, must do some re-reading!

Despite my limited Welsh (two years learning, and little to show for it) I appreciated the wit of your stream-naming without recourse to a dictionary!

My Welsh is limited too, big vocabulary, can't 'do' verbs!

I am Andrew Breeze and, once again, wish to thank those who read my book on the 'Four Branches of the Mabinogi' (my publisher, Gracewing of Leominster, will no doubt want to thank them too).

AB

Andrew wrote: "I am Andrew Breeze and, once again, wish to thank those who read my book on the 'Four Branches of the Mabinogi' (my publisher, Gracewing of Leominster, will no doubt want to thank them too).

AB"

Good to hear from you!
Now, can you suggest who wrote 'Culhwch ac Olwen'? Someone who knew Dyfed quite well and central South Wales perhaps?

Yes. 'Culhuch' was certainly written by someone who knew South and West Wales. I think, too, that the author was a cleric and not a layman. The evidence for that comes from those lists of place-names which have puzzled later scribes, but can often be shown to derive from toponyms in _Historia Adversos Paganos_ by Paulus Orosius, active in the early fifth century. The author had Latin learning, and liked to air it!

AB

If you're in the West Country, then you could visit Castle Dore (supposedly one of King Mark's forts) and the Drustan Stone (inscribed to the memory of Drustan/Tristan). Castle Dore is off the B3269 and the Drustan Stone is off the A3082, both Fowey, Cornwall.

Annette wrote: "If you're in the West Country, then you could visit Castle Dore (supposedly one of King Mark's forts) and the Drustan Stone (inscribed to the memory of Drustan/Tristan)..."

The Arthurian Centre at Slaughterford in Cornwall claims (wrongly, in my opinion) that it's the site of Camlann, Arthur's last battle, on the basis that a Dark Age inscription on a stone found there might be viewed as referring to Arthur (though it clearly does not). The website (http://www.arthur-online.co.uk/) has a page on the so-called 'King Arthur Stone' but its wandering commentary is just plain confusing.

Still, the Centre has a exhibition and shop, and meetings, events and re-enactments take place there from time to time, so it may be worth checking out what going on there nearer the time of your visit, Morganu.

Hi guys !!!

I am going to Mold in 2 weeks. Does anyone know the actual address of this amazing library in Mold?

Thanks

Diana

Dajana wrote: "I am going to Mold in 2 weeks. Does anyone know the actual address of this amazing library in Mold?"

Hello, Dajana,

I wrote about my visit here: http://merlinlocations.com/2010/927/

It includes the address and the phone number, directions, etc. You'll need to make an appointment. :-)

Thanks! ;-)
Will do.