The Year of Reading Proust discussion

How is Moncrieff as a translator?

Thank you. I don't know where that original thread is, but I've heard good things about Lydia Davis, who also translated Madame Bovary. To be honest, I have been a little intimidated, not just by the number of translations available, but also by the volumes listed under Proust on Goodreads. So many different versions (including different titles) exist for the same book, and in some cases volumes are combined. Even the books listed on this group's bookshelf confuse me. Anyway, thank you. I really am looking forward to this!

'Proust 6-pack (Proust Complete)'

OMG, a Proust 6-pack. That makes me wildly happy.

Jason, that original thread is here: http://www.goodreads.com/user_status/...

Mods, maybe it might be helpful to put a link to that original announcement in the group info? It's how a lot of people here first heard of the project, and has some discussion on the thread....

Yeah I only heard of it because everyone and his grandmother started joining the group at the same time. And I'm not one to miss a party.

Jason wrote: "Yeah I only heard of it because everyone and his grandmother started joining the group at the same time. And I'm not one to miss a party."

Yeah, I think this is the one time I've seen a big group assemble quickly for a non-scheduled read like this (I mean, as opposed to official-type groups that vote on books way in advance) - it's pretty great!

Lydia Davis has a few comments about translating posted at the Paris Review. They concern her translation of Madame Bovary but she makes a few comments about translating Proust as well.

http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/au...


I think the Enright with Davis supplement ought to be a sound way to proceed. But I'd be curious to hear comments about the remaining translations in the Penguin. What I've heard so far is that vol 2 is disappointing and readers don't proceed to the following volumes.

....well, we could look on GoodReads and see if there are negative reviews, if those haven't been hidden!

HA. HA. -- Sorry, just been reading through the 'Where has my review gone?' threads and I'm sort of horrified at GR right now. http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/9...

More seriously here are some articles about the different translations:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archi... (Comments to a review non-subscribers can't read, way to go, NYRB)

http://promethee.philo.ulg.ac.be/engd... (a bunch of reviews)

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/cu...

Moira wrote: "....well, we could look on GoodReads and see if there are negative reviews, if those haven't been hidden!"

Many thanks, Moira. My own original internet research would not have been as well directed.

I just did a little googlating. I think L. Davis's translation is worth buying because it is so highly praised. But for Volumes 2 through 7, how different is the Enright re-working from the original Moncrieff? I ask because I believe the version in the public domain, which is Feedbooks, is the Moncrieff, and if it's not that different, it's a $50 savings (for those who read on Kindle).

I'm posting because I'm genuinely looking for solid information & input from those who know what's up.

Proustitute wrote: "Jason wrote: "How is Moncrieff as a translator?"

I'll be posting the translations that this group will be using soon, but our reading will still adhere to what was mentioned on the initial thread ..."

I'm gonna read all the new translations—because I've already read the Moncrieff-Kilmartin-Enright. As I understand it, some of the new translations of the later volumes are only available in England, so I have to order them via Amazon U.K.?

David wrote: "As I understand it, some of the new translations of the later volumes are only available in England, so I have to order them via Amazon U.K.?"

Or time travel to 2018 which is when they are scheduled to be released here, I think.

Elizabeth wrote: "wait and find out from David if they're worth ordering from the UK. "

Look also on abebooks.com.
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Searc...

amazon (US) is also reselling them:
http://www.amazon.com/Prisoner-Fugiti...

I will be skipping out on the Davis translation. I don't own it and the thought of switching translations doesn't appeal to me. I hope the difference doesn't take away from discussion. So I'll be reading the Modern Library translations only.

I'm really excited about finally reading Proust! :D

Proustitute wrote: "I may well do this myself for sheer consistency."

Hmm, I like the idea of consistency too, but I have the Davis already, and really want to read it. An interesting question....

Since I've already read the Davis (I've read all but the last of Prendergast's editions), I'll probably also read the Enright version of the first volume, and refer back to the Davis every now and then.

Which brings me to a slightly off-topic thought. Reading books for the first time is a different experience from re-reading (even in a different edition). I'm not sure if the concept of 'spoilers' makes sense in this context (reading Proust for the plot? ;) but I wonder what's the best way to deal with discussions that refer to events in later volumes? As I imagine one of the ways in which I'm going to find re-reading an enriching experience is relating what I'm reading to events and themes developed elsewhere, but I don't want to piss in anyone's chips, as the saying goes...

FWIW -- and I'm hardly the Proust expert here -- but I've read Swann's Way in both Davis (recently) and MKE (long ago), and thought that Davis' translation was just remarkable and worth reading on any excuse. I tried the Penguin for vol. 2, and had the same experience as Elizabeth, except that I soon gave up.

I'm going to read MKE, starting in with vol. II - and think Proustitute's suggestion the right one.

I'd love to find a copy of the Gallimard - 4 volumes, on india paper -- but the price is prohibitive. I've added the particulars below for anyone who's interested.

I did order this one-volume Gallimard to use as an occasional crib
(the July 2002 paperback: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/2070...)
but I don't know if it's the Tadié or not. I'll find out, I guess, when it arrives.

Here's the full citation for the complete set. The Collection Bibliothèque de la Pléiade are beautiful books, btw.


À LA RECHERCHE DU TEMPS PERDU [1987] . Édition publiée sous la direction de Jean-Yves Tadié. Nouvelle édition.
TOME I : Du côté de chez Swann - À l'ombre des jeunes filles en fleurs - Esquisses. Avec la collaboration de Florence Callu, Francine Goujon, Eugène Nicole, Pierre-Louis Rey, Brian Rogers, Jo Yoshida, 1728 pages, rel. peau, 105 x 170 mm. Collection Bibliothèque de la Pléiade (No 100), Gallimard -rom. ISBN 9782070111268.
TOME II : À l'ombre des jeunes filles en fleurs - Le Côté de Guermantes - Esquisses. Avec la collaboration de Dharntipaya Kaotipaya, Thierry Laget, Pierre-Louis Rey, Brian Rogers, 2000 pages, rel. peau, 105 x 170 mm. Collection Bibliothèque de la Pléiade (No 101) (1988), Gallimard -rom. ISBN 9782070111367.
TOME III : Sodome et Gomorrhe - La Prisonnière - Esquisses. Avec la collaboration d'Antoine Compagnon, Pierre-Edmond Robert, 1952 pages, rel. peau, 105 x 170 mm. Collection Bibliothèque de la Pléiade (No 102) (1988), Gallimard -rom. ISBN 9782070111435.
TOME IV : Albertine disparue - Le Temps retrouvé - Esquisses. Avec la collaboration d'Yves Baudelle, Anne Chevalier, Eugène Nicole, Pierre-Louis Rey, Pierre-Edmond Robert, Jacques Robichez, Brian Rogers. Avec des index des noms de personnes, des noms de lieux et des œuvres littéraires et artistiques, 1728 pages, rel. peau, 105 x 170 mm. Collection Bibliothèque de la Pléiade (No 356) (1989), Gallimard -rom. ISBN 9782070111640.
TOME I : 60,00 € - TOME II : 66,00 € - TOME III : 66,00 € - TOME IV : 65,00 €

@Proustitute

I wonder if a (sub?)thread would be appropriate for discussions that don't make sense without reference to later volumes?

Happy to help out however I can. Perhaps with the auxiliary stuff.

AC wrote: "Here's the full citation for the complete set. The Collection Bibliothèque de la Pléiade are beautiful books, btw."

Oh you did not just do that to me //cries

Joshua wrote: "I'm not sure if the concept of 'spoilers' makes sense in this context (reading Proust for the plot? ;) but I wonder what's the best way to deal with discussions that refer to events in later volumes?"

I hear in the end....THE COOKIE CRUMBLES.

@Proustitute
The website says: 'Sorry, this person isn't accepting messages.'

Proustitute wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "There are spoilers, I think. So little "happens" as an actual event that when something does, it's HUGE..."

Yes, little Proust explosions and fireworks.

Let us all take heed and..."

I really don't think there is any way to spoil Proust by telling what happens. I mean, Christ, the narrative is just so subtle that to spoil it would be akin to imagining a gourmet meal is spoiled by a diner catching its aroma as it is brought to the table.

But I will say this: (view spoiler)[When I think of Odette, my blood runs cold. I read Recherche when I was coming out of a particularly bad relationship and it was unnerving how Odette was so much like this girl who drove me insane and shepherded me into the ideal place for me to ruin my own life. I sometimes feel like warning guys about to read Swann's that Odette's presence and actions will bring up memories of all sorts of torment they might have faced at the hands of women. (hide spoiler)] But that's hardly a spoiler; more an acknowledgement that here there may be dragons.

When I wrote a brief review a little while back I finished by saying this: "In the main I read Lydia Davis' translation (which she titles The Way By Swann's), but I also read a lot of the Scott Moncrieff & Kilmartin version which was revised by D.J. Enright. There were times when I thought Davis was being overly faithful to the original which resulted in her producing sentences which were highly convoluted and which would never be written by someone writing in English. I found the other version was always clearer and more readable, and when I get around to continuing the novel, which I do intend doing, it is the Enright etc. version which I will read".

I've been looking forward to reading Swann's Way for awhile now. Unfortunately, I bought the Barnes & Noble edition which according to the experts here is not the way to go. What to do oh what to do?

Moira wrote: "Proustitute wrote: "I may well do this myself for sheer consistency."

Hmm, I like the idea of consistency too, but I have the Davis already, and really want to read it. An interesting question...."

the davis translation is worth it. i wish they had allowed her to translate the full set. i know it would have taken longer, but evenso.

Which translation did you end up with, Jeremy?

I think the Barnes and Noble is the Moncrieff translation. Is that right, Jeremy?

I guess all translation is a compromise between those two - often conflicting - aims. At the literal extreme you have something barely intelligible, at the comfort-zone extreme, you have a text that has sacrificed fidelity for smoothness.

But for me, there's a value in the translated work as an autonomous entity. I'm reminded of Borges' provocative comments on translation (I forget where) - that the translation can be more faithful to a literary text than its original. I can't follow him that far, but a translated text certainly exists in its own space, its cultural references, structure and ideological underpinnings at an intriguing cross-current from the linguistic texture. Like a dog's fur brushed the wrong way.

I remember a discussion on this at the Overland blog last year - 'intratextuality' - the most interesting bits are in the comment thread, not my original post: http://overland.org.au/blogs/loudspea...

Joshua wrote: "I think the Barnes and Noble is the Moncrieff translation. Is that right, Jeremy?"

Correct. The more I think about it I don't want to ignore the recommendations from everyone. It is not like I paid a lot for the copy I have. It is just the thought of having a shiny new paperback book never read. On the other hand, if I like Proust as much as I am hoping for, then I will have both copies to make my own comparisons.

I think it's your call. I know people who read the original Moncrieff translations and were very happy with them. I know others that would have struggled and enjoyed it less, and so for them, the Davis translation would have been worth investing in (at least for Swann's Way).

I have the original Moncrieff on my Kindle (from Feedbooks), but I will probably also download the Enright reworkings. There may not be a huge difference in the reworkings, although perhaps someone else can comment on that because I am not sure.

Here is a slice of Proust in its original French, along with all the translations (including Grieve!). Maybe it will help you judge for yourself whether the original Moncrieff will be good for you.

http://www.readingproust.com/madelein...

William Herschel wrote: "I will be skipping out on the Davis translation. I don't own it and the thought of switching translations doesn't appeal to me. I hope the difference doesn't take away from discussion. So I'll be r..."

I've heard that the Davis translation is the "best," but that seems like a matter of opinion. At any rate, it's the one I'll be reading. It might make for interesting discussion if there are big differences between the two.

Jason wrote: "I think it's your call. I know people who read the original Moncrieff translations and were very happy with them. I know others that would have struggled and enjoyed it less, and so for them, the D..."

Eeek! You know how long I've pined for a website that would do similar translation comparisons for every book it could?

The Davis certainly reads more lively.

Proustitute wrote: "I suppose it boils down to my issues with the many Russian P&V translations..."

It's funny you say that. I'm in [yet another] group that is starting The Master and Margarita next week and we are specifically avoiding P&V, opting instead for the Burgin/O'Connor translation of that novel.

Taking your advice, I will be using the Modern Library's M-K-E translations for the whole of Proust next year, I think.

William Herschel wrote: "Eeek! You know how long I've pined for a website that would do similar translation comparisons for every book it could?"

I run a group that tries to do just this: http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/3...

This got me to thinking. A few years back when I read War & Peace it never occurred to me to research which translation to read. It might not even have dawned on me how many there were. I was just checking out a thread where a similar discussion happened although there was much more mixed opinion on which was best. I read the Maude translation and very much enjoyed the book while some thought it was dry.

Thanks for the link, Joshua. This is really interesting. I paused on the reading of Le Ton Beau De Marot: In Praise Of The Music Of Language, which went in great detail about the artistry of the language of translation. Your blog looks really interesting. I'll have to read it in detail. This thread makes me want to pick up the book again, despite all these distractions. I'm not knocking these recent wonderful distractions, finding people who read the books I've been wanting to explore, and having focused forums for them.

Joshua wrote: "I remember a discussion on this at the Overland blog last year - 'intratextuality' - the most interesting bits are in the comment thread, not my original post: http://overland.org.au/blogs/loudspea...
"

You made great points in your blog, Joshua. There are people in non-English speaking countries who are ravenous for the content of English language books. Unfortunately, they are often too expensive or unavailable to those countries, even in the English format. Luckily, digital books have closed the gap. That is one of the reason for pirating of digital books, since a lot of digital books are unavailable to some of those countries due to whatever agreements the powers that be have. It is sad that smart, enquiring minds who can read in the English language are only able to read popular novels from authors such as Stephen King and Dean Koontz.

I read a passage in Le Ton Beau De Marot: In Praise Of The Music Of Language about the Polish SF writer Stanisław Lem's The Cyberiad. The story is about an inventor who can only invent things that begin with the letter "n". Now, this would make for an interesting translation problem. LOL.

Sorry, the inventor created a machine that can only make things that begin with the letter "n".

I prefer "The twittering of the birds at daybreak..." Besides, I plan to couple audio with text since I think best when my reading is not interrupted by life. The audio at Audible is the Montcrieff translation.

I can't read "twitter" or "twittering" anymore without thinking of The Twitter (website/social networking phenomenon).

*sigh*

The rhythm of the Montcrieff matches with the French version. Repeat the two versions with the French and you can hear the difference.

Anyway, your example sold me on the Montcrieff whether I was pairing it with audio or not. There is artistry in language translation.

Hmm...in that case I may be getting the boxed set. I seriously hope I can keep up with this because it is not like me to read an author's works straight through. I spread my author love around.

Jeremy, it is not like reading 7 separate works. The volumes of Proust work together as a collection. Look at it as one huge motherfucking book, split into 7 pieces.

Hm..I always thought Atlas Shrugged was longer than War and Peace.

Jason wrote: "Jeremy, it is not like reading 7 separate works. The volumes of Proust work together as a collection. Look at it as one huge motherfucking book, split into 7 pieces."

Oh, I understand. I don't think of it as a series - it is just, like you said, a huge motherfucking book. Even with my love of 2666 I had to take a break in between books 3 and 4. But, hey, I'll give it a shot!!!

I had no idea that Carl Sandburg wrote a novel, never mind one of the longest ones ever!

Jeremy wrote: "Oh, I understand. I don't think of it as a series - it is just, like you said, a huge motherfucking book. Even with my love of 2666 I had to take a break in between books 3 and 4. But, hey, I'll give it a shot!!!"

I think it'll help that it's spread out over a full year. Makes it seem much more doable.