English Mysteries Club discussion

If I recall correctly, Dorothy L. Sayers' was an academic who also penned mysteries. That is why her mysteries often sound more formal, rich in intellect, but perhaps not casually conversational. Her writing was also influenced by the time and place she wrote. When I was younger, I was enthralled with her writing style because she sounded so much more intelligent than people writing in my "TigerBeat Magazine"!

Sayers was not actually an academic. However, she studied at Oxford before women were awarded degrees and was in the first group of women to finally get their degrees in about 1920. After graduating, she worked in publishing and later as a high school teacher and as an advertising copywriter. Sayers didn't write the same book twice and experimented with different styles. Also, she had spent her childhood writing plays for performance by the family and her schoolfellows, was a published poet before she wrote novels and ultimately gave up writing novels to write liturgical drama and translate Dante. I think the breadth of her literary interests explains stylistic quirks such as writing dialogue in script style. Jemidar and I recently read Hilary Mantel's French Revolution novel, A Place of Greater Safety. Mantel does the same thing in that novel.

I agree with Kim...I think Sayers pushed herself to write in different ways for herself more than for the reader. As I've been reading through her Wimsey mysteries, I've noticed how she tries out different types of story and tries to grow as a writer.

And yes, Mantel does the same. Thanks Kim for putting your finger on why I'm enjoying her books!

In the example cited, I believe that Bunter is reporting on the conversation, in a letter, to Lord Peter, and "to save space" he has formatted it as a script. That Sayers came naturally to the format is of course a consideration too.

Ah, Bunter's excellent epistolatory style! "I thank your Lordship for the excellent lodgings you paid for, and would like to remind your Lordship that we are on no account to wear our purple socks with the green check suit."

Bunter has been way underused in the last couple of Wimsey books I've visited on this re-read. He comes into his own again in Busman's Honeymoon.

Have people been looking at the authorized sequels, penned by Jill Walsh? They are not as good as the genuine Sayers, but they sort of help if you're suffering from withdrawal.

I have read them all; withdrawal is indeed a powerful force. My review of the latest, The Attenbury Emeralds, is here. I will probably include them all in my reread.

I read the sequels last year, at the end of a chronological order re-read of Sayers. I found them okay, but not really a substitute for Sayers. I may include them next time I re-read Sayers, but it's possible that I'll stop at Busman's Honeymoon (or at least at the short stories which postdate BH, the names of which I can't remember at the moment) and imagine what comes next!

I read and disliked Thrones Dominations, and read and rather liked Presumption of Death. I meant to reread not too long ago but somehow never got around to it; they're in queue for some time this ... year? Maybe? Some time when I'm not already reading seven or eight other books. I have not read The Attenbury Emeralds, and I'm a little afraid to, but I do have it ... Curiosity and a touch of the obsessive compulsive (have to complete the set) is probably going to overcome prudence on that one.

Oh Tracey, do read The Attenbury Emeralds! I'd love to see your review. Don't read the spoiler in mine first, seriously.

I will say that of all the Walsh efforts I enjoyed ATTENBURY EMERALDS the most. I miss Sayers' erudition, poor Lord Peter is far less witty in Walsh's hands, the mysteries and historical stuff (WW2) is thin and unconvincing, and I dislike her evolution of Bunter and his personal life. But suddenly, towards the end of ATTENBURY (those who have read it know where I mean) it all snaps into focus and we're back, right in the center of Wimsey-ness. So you need to read it, at least for that.

I must say i have put off reading Walsh's efforts to recreate Wimsey. After these comments I am going to put Attenbury Emeralds on my list

It is the only one of the sequels I have read, where when I was finished I wanted more. And, no, there aren't any yet.

I've read all the Lord Peter books over the years and really need to reread some of them.
One of my favourites is Gaudy Night, in which his wife Harriet Vane plays the major role.

I've read a few too Rita and Rosemarie, but I'd really like to read them in order. I'm "collecting" the early ones when they come on kindle at a reduced price, so that I can do this. Yes, I think Gaudy Night is a good one too.

There were some good TV dramatisations with Edward Petherbridge and Harriet Walter.

One of my all-time favorite experiences was rereading Gaudy Night on the bus from London to Oxford, & wandering through both cities guided by Harriet Vane (who starts out in Mecklenburg Square).

That pleasure inspired the next mystery coming up in my Cory Goodwin (daughter of Archie) series: Gaudi Knight, where Cory follows a Don Quixote plot around Barcelona.

The original Lord Peter in the British TV series of Sayers's work was Ian Carmichael -- replaced by the taller, moodier Edward Petherbridge when Harriet & romance entered the picture.

C.J. wrote: "One of my all-time favorite experiences was rereading Gaudy Night on the bus from London to Oxford, & wandering through both cities guided by Harriet Vane (who starts out in Mecklenburg Square)...."

What a lovely memory Carol - and an unusual way to explore both cities. I too remember both incarnations of Lord Peter, over 30 years apart! Ian Carmichael starred in five adaptations of novels between 1972 and 1975. Although I watched them, I never read the books at that time. Then in 1987 three more novels were dramatised, in a new series with Edward Petherbridge. I like both but think the later ones with Edward Petherbridge are more true to how Dorothy L. Sayers envisaged him, especially physically.

I do like Ian Carmichael in the radio adaptations though, between 1973 and 1983, plus the only one they missed (I think) in 2005. They do still repeat those here, and all the TV dramatisations are available on CD too.

Carol or Rosemarie, would either of you like to host this thread? ie., keep an eye on it, and add topics to discuss occasionally, and fun questions if you like, now and then? Nothing major, don't worry. But you both seem to be experts :)

I've read some of the JPW continuations, but I recall that she got some quite basic facts about WW2 wrong in the one set during the war, and really strayed from the social conventions of the early 1950s in another one. And JPW is old enough to remember the early '50s, so she should have known better.

Gaudy Night is much more than a mystery/crime novel, I think. I re-read it quite often.

I was sucked into a project to read the entire series this year (not here on GR) - not that it was a difficult decision! I have read all the books more than once but it has been a while since I read the series in order.

Jean - my mother would agree with you re: Ian Carmichael & Edward Petherbridge! The Ian Carmichael TV adaptations were my introduction to Lord Peter - I think it started with "Clouds of Witness". I loved it so much that I couldn't wait a whole week to find out what happened & since my parents owned all the books, it wasn't long before I was reading them. However, probably because I saw Carmichael before reading Sayers, he became my mental picture of Lord Peter.

Leslie wrote: "I think it started with "Clouds of Witness"..."

Yes, I think you're right. And he is good - a perfect voice :)

Any volunteers to host this thread?

I am going to be leading a book discussion in another group as well as being a moderator in three busy groups, so I really can't take on anything more. But thanks for asking, Jean. ☺️

Leslie wrote: "However, probably because I saw Carmichael before reading Sayers, he became my mental picture of Lord Peter. ..."

Have to say I agree Leslie, Carmichael is Wimsey to me.

Rita wrote: "I would like to reread all the Lord Peter Wimsey books written by Dorothy L. Sayers. It has been so long since I've read them that I have forgotten most of the stories."

I would enjoy that as well. Maybe we could plan a year long Wimsey challenge ??

Rita wrote: "Adrian wrote: "Rita wrote: "I would like to reread all the Lord Peter Wimsey books written by Dorothy L. Sayers. It has been so long since I've read them that I have forgotten most of the stories."..."

Given I have challenges through this year it would have to be next, so maybe I'll suggest to Jean and we could bear it in mind for next when my Poirot challenge has finished.