SciFi and Fantasy eBook Club discussion

I've picked up my copy and I have some homework reading to do (Frankenstein) before starting this one .... but what about you all? thoughts?

I have a hardback first edition, which I foolishly forgot to get Bujold to sign even though I was sitting next to her for half an hour.

I finished the book a couple of days ago and loved it. Cazaril is a great character, very complex. And it had some really strong female characters--thank you Ms. Bujold! I enjoyed the twist on the god system--the idea of the "Bastard".

I was able to totally engross myself in the book riding in the car for three days as my husband drove 1600 miles. I probably could have been better company for him but hey, it made for a great reading experience for me!

If you have to do something lengthy and tedious -- fly to Asia, renew your drivers' license, get a building permit -- a Bujold novel is the ideal companion for making the hours fly.

I love this book! Great characters, great plot, great theological system; moments of witty humor and serious character. And it rereads well, too.

The sequel, and the third book that's set in the same universe, are also quite good. But I think this one is my favorite.

I agree Victoria - I've read all three and they were all good, but this one was my favorite too. I think it is because I like Cazaril.

I recently listened to The Curse of Chalion on audio. I really enjoyed it and I am now listening to the second book Paladin Souls. Great stories! This is the first time I have read any of this authors books and would love to read more. I am also a big fan of Caz.The Curse of Chalion

This is such a fantastic book! I'd love to read it again.

Although superficially enjoyable and mostly well told, I found the novel a bit lightweight. It would have been a good book to read on an airplane or long trip. I thought many of the characters were interesting enough: Cazaril, Umegat, and Ista, for example; but Iselle and Beatriz were downright annoying and too perfect. Couldn't she have a temper tantrum and stomp on a kitten like other teenage girls? (Or something like that.) Also, the last hour or so of the audio version, as I see it, could have been implied with a sentence or twice and completely dropped. It did not add much to the characters or story. Ok, a lot of girls and women might want to read this book and--heavy on typecasting--they would probably enjoy the "Romance" wrap up, but I could have done without it.

I did enjoy the lack of magic spells and wizards but kept telling myself what poppycock the theological aspects of free will, fate, and divine intervention were.

If not for the girls and the gods I could have given this book four stars.

I listened to the audiobook version last year when it was available through my local library via Overdrive media console (yay free books!). I almost gave up on it when half way through the book, the curse had still not been mentioned. The pace in the first part was a little too slow for my liking, but it picked up nicely in the second half. The one thing that kept me interested in the story was Cazaril. Like Greg, I also could have done without the "romance" wrap up.

I particularly admire the worldbuilding in this book. The novel five-part religious system carries through all the aspects of the society in a very nice way. It has been argued that this series shoud by rights have five books -- one for each of the dieties. Which means Bujold has to write two more!!

Brenda wrote: "I particularly admire the worldbuilding in this book. The novel five-part religious system carries through all the aspects of the society in a very nice way. It has been argued that this series sh..."

I agree!

One of my re-read books. I like pretty much all the aspects of it.
Not been specifically mentioned so far - I think the villains are well done. Not evil men but ongoing examples of absolute power corrupts absolutely. Also people who include examples of how weakness and indecisiveness can cause so much trouble.

I do like the main characters. I am also impressed by the thought given to the more minor characters - no-one is a walk-on bit part.

I'd seriously recommend the two other books set in this world, starting with the Paladin of Souls. That picks up the story of the "mad mother" of the Princess. What comes next for her.

The Hallowed Hunt is excellent too. The ice bear at the funeral is a glorious scene.

I understand that the intention is for there to be five in total set in this world - with an emphasis on a different god each time - think I saw that on Bujold's website but not sure - was a while ago. It is true to a point that each book has an emphasis on a different god - Lady of Spring plays a pivotal role in Chalion, Son of Autumn in the Hallowed Hunt, The Bastard in The Paladin of Souls - but I can't help noticing that the Bastard pops up all over the place in all the books. :)

There is a wonderful character in the Hallowed Hunt - a forthright lady who follows two of the gods - the Mother of Summer and the Bastard.

I think the latter two possibly have a touch more humour to them than Chalion.

Like Aminah, I didn't really get into the story until about halfway through the book. Then I was gripped. I ended up really liking Caz by the end, but in the beginning he was such a victim! And at first he seemed content to just roll over and take it. I didn't really warm to him until he started showing some teeth (I prefer that kind of protagonist).

Like others here, I didn't need the romance wrap up, mainly because the pairing had been so overshadowed and underdeveloped that I hadn't paid it much attention, and so that little tidbit gave me no real gratification. And I am a huge romantic!

Interestingly, everyone who tried to actively fight the curse failed, but passiveness prevailed in the end. Just praying and leaving matters in the hands of the gods. And yet, how easy is that really? How many people could just give up control of their lives and trust that things will work out? His passivity, which so irritated me at first, is actually what saved them all. Not your typical hero at all, Caz.

Insidious wrote: "Interestingly, everyone who tried to actively fight the curse failed, but passiveness prevailed in the end. Just praying and leaving matters in the hands of the gods. And yet, how easy is that real..."

Not just passivity, but perseverance through difficulty to do the right thing, including whole-heartedly laying down his life and being willing to die for the sake of others. That's not mere passivity - that's actively practicing virtue.

Greg wrote: " for example; but Iselle and Beatriz were downright annoying and too perfect. Couldn't she have a temper tantrum and stomp on a kitten like other teenage girls? (Or something like that."

Read this comment the other day and its been bugging me. I've read a lot of history and a great deal was expected in terms of mature behaviour from we'd consider to be teenagers. Some were able to deliver. Taking a male example - Prince Rupert of the Rhine. He was with the King of Sweden's Army during his teens, learning the trade and art of war. Was a very successful general of cavalry to King Charles during the English Civil War and was 21 at the time. Again a male example (because they are better recorded) - midshipmen joined the Napoleonic War British Navy at 12, 13 and were learning how to sail a warship, navigate and command men from that age.
At the same age women were learning to run households, and for upper class entire estates plus several languages.
One female example that is recorded - Elizabeth Tudor. She was fluent in several languages by her teens and also had the brains and self-control to survive through a long period where she came close to being executed as it was politically convenient. I remember one story of her - she was asked whether she believed the bread and wine were representative of Christ's Body and Blood (Protestant) or were transformed into it (Catholic) - this was the big religious debate of the period. The people asking were lords working for the Catholic Queen Mary Tudor. If she gave the Protestant answer, then she made herself a figurehead for all the Protestants who were wishing to overthrow Mary for a Protestant Monarch (and so that made it likely Mary would have her executed). If she gave the Catholic answer then she would save her own life, but be declaring herself illegitimate and not in line for the throne. So she said "His was the hand that brake it, his was the voice that spake it, and what that word doth make it, I do believe and take it." And then said nothing for hours in the face of repeated questioning.
Yeah, there probably were tantrum types then as now, but there were teenagers who were able to behave in what might now be considered "older than their years".
One other thought - not all teenage girls are tantrum prone these days. Extreme example would be teenagers caring for invalid or disabled parents. How about teenage Olympic Athletes.
Anyway, probably better stop going on. Just get a little peeved when someone assumes all teenage girls are tantrum prone and none would be up to the standard of Iselle and Beatriz.

It is also worth remembering that the entire concept of 'teen' is modern. In medieval times you were either a small child, or you were a miniature adult, expected to perform adult work. Being a 'teenager' is a 20th-century luxury, secured to us by child-labor laws and state education requirements. Otherwise we'd see 9-year-olds toiling in factories.

I didn't literary mean the girls had to have tantrums, but I want something other than perfection: beautiful, intelligent, resourceful etc. She didn't even have warts!

The character of her brother was better: mislead into believing killing the animals was a good idea. That gave the character depth.

E.M. Forester, I think, said a good character does unexpected things in a believable way. This does not hold true for the girls. They were stock characters of perfection with no depth and I fond that annoying. If the author want to show strength in a woman, perhaps something along the lines of having to pick a husband that was fat and old over the handsome prince or having to pass over what's his name for that position in favor of a less able man for political reasons. Something.

OK. :)

But :)

I didn't find them perfect. They were having to learn, Iselle did do several unwise things - race her horse and threaten its health, spurn the donation from a corrupt judge when she was representing the Lady of Spring. What she did have was good advisors - especially Caz - and the sense to listen to them and learn from her mistakes.

Poor brother was not as astute and had poor advisors.

And there are people who are both bright and gorgeous for real. Ho hum. :( :)

I was impressed with Iselle's reaction, when cornered. Rather than marry creepy baron, or allow herself to be handed off to some minion like a door prize, she made the move to run her own destiny, thus kicking off the entire central action of the book. In the second or third volume, her mother says of Iselle that she is the most promising and capable monarch the realm has had in generations. Although the focus of the book is on Cazaril, certainly the secondary arc is the growth and maturing of Iselle into her power.

Carro wrote: "I didn't find them perfect. They were having to learn, Iselle did do several unwise things - race her horse and threaten its health, spurn the donation from a corrupt judge when she was representing the Lady of Spring."

Actually, I would say those events sort of show my point. In contemporary fiction "perfect" girls and women aren't wallflowers. (Nor should they be.) She acted and acted out in ways I'd expect of a fantasy heroine. Nowadays it would not cut the mustard if the girl didn't ride horses wildly or shoot arrows like a master archer. Or something along those lines again. Very common; perhaps mandatory.

Even spurning the judge showed her of good "righteous" mind. And there were no consequences; there was talk of earning an enemy, but the plot point fizzled. Why not have executed or exiled, then have her learn he was guiltless? Have her struggle of that conundrum.

Then there was the whole picking the handsome prince as the best political choice. How convenient! Would it have ruined the novel for her struggle for her own personal freedom only to discover that it would me more politically astute to marry a middle-age lout with gout? I guess it would for many readers.

It's not a bad book, not really. Just contrived. And Bujold could have done better, at least as I see it.

OK
So you are saying that as a fantasy heroine she is a wallflower compared to a modern woman. Well it isn't just a fantasy setting, it is a historical one as well and running within the social limitations of that period.


Horses
1. Horses - hope nobody would mistreat them. She does so and regrets it.
2. Are you saying that fantasy heroines in a modern setting should ride wildly? Or that the most recently written books of fantasy have wild riding in it and that is what you expect?

Judge.
1. She stomps on him and is gleeful.
2. It is pointed out to her that she may have got it wrong and in any case has left an enemy behind her (Caz then thinks whoops, I shouldn't have said that to a girl, but then realises it was a useful lesson.)
3. She takes the point that she didn't know for sure.
4. She asks for enquiries to be made to see if she had made a mistake.

I think 1 to 4 is a perfectly realistic situation.

I think, but can't quite remember, that the judge does a runner, but can't be quite sure on that.

Handsome prince - well sometimes it does work out that the best political choice is also a good personal one. Henry 8th and Katharine of Aragon were the bright young things of their generation, good looking, worked well together, it was a good marriage for a long time before the other 5 wives happened.

Lout with gout. Well, for it to be politically astute he'd have to be a brainy general with gout. :)
The father in law is not exactly a dream...

And there are points where she almost mucks it up - when the curse is exaggerating her natural pride.

Yes, sometimes it does turn out that the political choice is not the best personal choice - but not always. I get tired of books where every single thing gets dumped on the characters in the name of character building.

BTW - its a minor plot line, but if you want to read a political astute royal marriage and how it develops, read Barbara Hambly's Silicon Mage series.

Have to start by saying that this book is one of my "take if I'm abandoned forever on a desert island" books so I'm definitely not going to be very critical.

I got sucked into the book from the very beginning by Caz, probably because of my background working in a VA psych hospital with a majority of patients with PTSD. The attitudes and reactions Caz had to his war and galley experiences were so similar (emotionally) to some of the stories I listened to from these veterans that the book 'rang true' for me from the first chapter.

This book (and the series) also has one of the most 'believable' religious belief systems I've seen developed in a fantasy series. The gods themselves are actively involved in a believably consistent way with the characters, which is something that not many authors seem to be able to manage well. They add to the plot but they are not 'all powereful' and cannot be used to twist the plot in unrealistic directions, they can only influence through the human characters.