Sean Starr's Blog: The Artist's Tao

Hi everybody, welcome back to the Artist Tao Podcast. We're here of course with Sean Starr and Jenny. And we're here on our next principle, embrace your nature. You are creative by nature. Although it is a generous idea, not everyone else is driven creatively.

Yeah.

What do you think about that?

Yeah, I think you have to know thyself. Yeah, this one's one of those that's like really just about kind of exploring who you are because I do think that everybody does have like that creative, I won't even say ability because that's something that has to be developed and nurtured, but it's creative nature. I think it's I mean, that gets into like metaphysical, spiritual stuff to a certain extent, but that's the stuff that like is the nature of who we are. And I believe that, but as the second part mentions, like it's a generous idea to say like, everybody's an artist, everybody's creative. And it's like, I... I think it's a pretty big spectrum and I don't agree that just like, well, everybody is an artist. Everyone can be an artist. It's like, well, if it's developed and if that drive is there, then sure but to just blanketly say that everyone is creative, that's like saying everyone's an athlete. Some people are born with that drive to be an athlete and then they can develop their body to do certain amazing things, but that doesn't mean that everybody's an athlete. You're like not everybody can play pro basketball. Yeah.

But they can still be athletic in a way, but they're just playing pro basketball. Right. And, and, you know, again, it's a spectrum. I mean, anybody can, you know, it, some five foot tall guy is super passionate about basketball. He can certainly pursue that and maybe even become really good at it. There was a basketball player. Yeah, I know. That was like, I want to, I mean, I don't, I would say five, seven or five eight, but he could dunk the ball or something. I forget who he played for, but yeah. And I feel like everybody does have artistic originality. I think it, like you're saying it's a spectrum that's comes on many forms. Yeah. But it's also like, if you don't unlock what's up here and do something with that, then it's kind of like a seed that hasn't germinated. It's like you have that seed, but What is your drive to germinate that seed into a growing flourishing plant that produces fruit?

That's a good analogy. That takes work and that takes commitment and that takes desire. And everyone's ability, not ability, but desire to work and commit and have that desire is clearly very different. What do you think, because you're embracing your nature, it's like, I feel... most people lose their imagination for whatever reason, right? Their life experience or something compounds, or they put it to the side, or they... Yeah, Picasso had some famous quote related to that about like something about children and artists or every artist, every child is an artist or something like that. And I think that's definitely true. It's like you, you can, a lot of that can be kind of snuffed out just by our education system and everything else that's...

Just kind of telling everyone to stay in their lane and be in the little box.

Yeah. So you probably have like an, a pathway that's always like, think out of the box, think out of the box. What you like, I guess the practice to keep getting out of the box is to keep getting out of the box in order to strengthen that root in your brain. Yeah, but it, I don't, it's not like I'm sitting around like I need to do something out of the box. I mean, it's just compiled years of, um, like I don't want a day job.

I don't want a nine to five job. So like, what can I do to keep that from happening? And so far so good, but that's not as glamorous sounding as like, hmm, how can I do this outside the box? And a lot of that, it's like exercising a muscle. It's kind of like an athlete. It's like, I think that you do it long enough and it just becomes, how you approach things, you're doing it in an unorthodox way. Sometimes out of necessity or even sometimes desperation because something's just not working. So you're trying new things to make it work because you're really trying to get a result that matches what's in your thoughts or your vision of what you're trying to do. Sometimes that turns into something really cool and really unique and people respond to and that then brings you more projects and all that. So what do you think are some tips for getting to know yourself? What would be like a route?

Well, we're in a period of time and we have been for decades, but we're in a period of time where your thought space is trying to be occupied by people selling you things, by people trying to convert you to an ideology, et cetera. And it goes on and on and you've got to clear that out. And... And there's a variety of ways that people do that with different practices and different spiritual practices, different things, but you got to get away from all the noise of... all of the things that are trying to convince you to do what they want you to do. Yeah, I would imagine and start creating. Yeah. And we're, unfortunately we're, we're living in a society that doesn't really value or want those things to happen. Uh, like certain cultures and societies in the past have that have revered you know, artistry and craftsmanship and those kinds of things. We're in this really distorted, crazy society now that doesn't have a reverence for, you know, the beautification of things. And, you know, you can even see it in our architecture, you know, like there's some really ugly buildings going up all over the place. You're just like, wow, like, You couldn't have done something with that. Like that's our visual landscape. There's a box. Yeah. There's like nothing you could have done with that. I, you know, I'm sure some of it, some of it is like trying to save money by making things simplistic. But at the same time, it's like, come on, I'm sure you could have done something that didn't cost a lot of extra money. That would have been more appealing than that. Um, cause you were talking about classical music one time, but I just, I was trying to remember.

That's a great example. The most recent thing though about where they're playing now classical music and for what reason, but that's a topic for another conversation. But yeah, like how you were saying that nobody really appreciates classical music. No, it's the most bizarre thing to me is, you know, I like to collect records on vinyl and like the most available and cheapest priced and least sought out records are classical music recordings. And I've never been a huge classical music fan, but I do dabble in it occasionally. And so, you know, I'll buy a record at a record store and they want like a dollar for it. And there's mountains of these classical records and you sit down and you put the thing on and you're, you're just blown away at the level of commitment of the musicians the composer, the conductor of the orchestra. And you're just listening to something that represents so many thousands of hours of like dedication to execute and no one cares. Like no one values it. No one cares. It's completely crazy, but that's how crazy we've gotten is there's things that are that refined to that level artistically that are just mind blowing. Like, you know, you can just sit down and listen to some of these, you know, operas or classical recordings and you're just in awe because nothing is made to that level anymore. And no one, and it has no value in our society. You know, I also love classic rock and yes, you know Led Zeppelin four, you know, whatever, like these albums are iconic and amazing. Um, but you know, those records are selling for sometimes 50, 60 bucks for an original pressing. And, you know, there's, there's other recordings that are equally as impressive and great with classical music that like no one's touching. It's amazing.

Didn't they have orchestras for even cartoons? Is it Bugs Bunny? Yeah, probably so. I think all of those studios had like all that classical musicianship as their backdrop and everything. Yeah, it's just an amazing thing to me that our culture, you know, reveres stuff that... isn't very well done. And, you know, like the whole pop music machinery that just turns out, you know, the next pop singer and the next pop song and all of that, and those sell by the millions. And you've got musicians that have dedicated literally their entire life to like becoming the best oboe player or whatever, so that they can sit in an orchestra and perform these pieces of music and aside from tiny little numbers like no one cares.

I don't know how that applies to what we were just reading, but. Well, we were talking about embracing our nature and Yeah, the music, we could probably talk about that a lot more actually.

So yeah, embrace your nature. You are creative by nature. Although it is a generous idea, not everyone else is driven creatively.

Yeah, that one kind of went off the rails, but I think we made some points. I would say.

See you next time.

Welcome back everybody to the Artist Tao podcast. We're here with our next principle. Keep your integrity. Never alter your work based on criticism. Never alter your work based on commercial gain.

Yep. Keep your integrity. That's a really hard thing to do, obviously in all aspects of life, but extremely important, I think, in terms of an artist. Yeah, you got to live with your decisions. Yeah, it's living with your decisions and it's also the...

If you don't, if you're not keeping integrity with your work, then your work is a mishmash. It doesn't really mean anything. I guess that would kind of be a mirror for maybe you're not keeping integrity with yourself. I think so. I think.

Just like the words that you use, if those words are truthful and honest and you have integrity in the things that you say, those words will have value to other people. And when you are expressing yourself creatively, it's the same thing. Yeah, I think we talked about the other day, never alter your work based on commercial gain. I think we were talking about galleries. Like if...

You know, when you're an artist and say a gallery comes and you were discussing about some galleries may be great. Some galleries may be not so great to always look, look for that. So don't base on them, what a gallery says or what other criticism is. Don't lose your integrity. Just base for a commercial gain. Yeah. And there's, there's all these cases I really enjoy. And we've been watching different music documentaries and I've always enjoyed those. I love the storyline of like how musical artists go from playing in their garage to becoming well known and what choices they make and being able to see where they messed up, where they didn't, where they held their ground, kept their integrity, where they didn't. And I think that the criticism thing's really important that if you're altering your work because somebody with a loud opinion thinks that you should, you're never gonna create anything of value to anyone because you're not tapping into that genuine voice that you have within you that's making you want to express yourself in the first place. Because now some other voice is involved in that as a critic.

never alter your work based on commercial gain. That's probably the biggest temptation, I think, that artists deal with is, um,

Knowing that if they make a tweak or a change to their work, that it will fit into some category that's popular right now. Oh yeah. We were talking about that this morning actually, about you're working on a project currently and how you want to develop it in your style. Because something completely different from painting or sculpture or gold, you know, the gilding. So you're developing your own style in this new projects, so yeah. Yeah, for sure. And if you start allowing the influence of, well, if I go this direction, instead of what I really think this would be best suited for, I can, you know, this can make a lot more money. I mean, there's plenty of people that have done that and have made more money, but like what...

What's your motive for doing it in the first place? I feel like that would be, that would get to be like a square fitting a circle into a square pair. How, what's that saying? I never get it right either, but I know what you're saying. You know, it would get frustrating. I think that's what you're constantly doing. It's frustrating, but it's also, it's a heavy, heavy temptation because you have to have money to live and you have to have money to move your work forward and buy supplies and, and, and everybody has the underlying desire to succeed with their artwork and to build an audience and to get people engaged with what they're doing. And that I think that's been hijacked and made even more extreme by social media. I mean, there's people who like their whole thing is just engagement on social media and they don't care what it is. Like that's their currency and that's, um, where their integrity is being jeopardized is they're just throwing out their whatever's gonna get the most engagement. Have you always kept yours?

I think in general I can say that I have and in certain cases I probably have blurred the lines and course corrected after realized that I kind of like blurred the lines but it's... Those are individual projects that I would say that I may have done that on over as compared to like my overall path. I don't feel like I'm my overall path that I've made that compromise, but I think on individual projects, I may be, not often, but I think I maybe have allowed that to influence me a little bit. And then I look back and I'm like, man, I wish I would have just did what I thought was the best way to do it instead of trying to do it in a way that might be more popular. Do you mean like for individual clients or something that you were just making? Like a, well, in my case, there's almost always a client involved. You know, I mean, I've done, you know, a bit of art for art sake type projects, but you know, years ago I set out to, you know, not have to get a day job, you know? And having grown up in this type of work, I saw the mechanism of how you can do that and was just, kind of just dreaded the idea of having to get a normal job.

So what you were just saying about that you maybe have noticed that a couple of times, would that be something that if a client comes to you and says, hey, I'm looking for this logo or whatever, what you're saying is that, maybe you had an idea of what you thought would be really good and then instead you kind of went more mainstream or... Well, it's more, I've said this for years, a big part of the job of working with clients in any kind of commercial artwork sense is having the bravery to tell the client no, because something's not in their best interest.

And that's a really, really hard place to get to and, and get yourself to do. Uh, but I've had a lot of clients tell me that they really, really appreciate that I've done that in certain instances because they're, you know, they saw something on Pinterest or whatever, and they're like, I really want this. And you're like, yeah, but that's for one, you're just copying something someone else has done. And that's really not the right fit for what you need.

It's not gonna serve the purpose of, even if it's something that's strictly decorative, it's just, it's not the right fit. And so sometimes you have to tell the client no. What do you think the percentages now of people contacting you and saying, I want you to do this and I want you to just go for it and people that maybe like have like, I have this and I want this done. Well, up until, I would say maybe six months to a year ago, it was probably 80 to 90 % would come in to and say, I want you to just do your thing. And that took years and years and years to get to. And now it's just, and this is something that you and I talked about recently and talk about a lot actually is, Everything's changed so dramatically and... I don't know that there's any baseline or standard to compare anything to anymore. I still have the majority of my clients are wanting me to just do what I do and they're like, Hey, I watched your work for a while. I'd really like you to just do your thing for me. But it's one of the reasons that I have gravitated towards the engraving is because that's, um You're really not taking orders for that. You're just, this is what I do. This is my style. If you'd like to engage with this, this is it. And this is what it costs. And that's the end of it. So what would you say, so over the last, I guess now it's already been four years since 2020. And what do you, how, what keeps you adaptable? You know, I feel like I've seen you, you do so many things.

And we've kind of like had a lot of opportunity to pivot because the, I don't know what the landscape is. So I hate to use the word volatile, but it is, you can't really predict it rightly. You have had in the past been able to sort of predict and strategize. So what would you say to somebody who is sort of stepping into this world of being an artist as their lifestyle to be adaptable to do what like have different things they do.

Yeah, I think the broader and more diverse of what you're offering, the more likelihood that you're going to survive through the ups and downs and we're clearly in some kind of a weird down world spiral right now with, you know, economic things and things like that. And things are, things are unpredictable. I wouldn't say volatiles, but they're unpredictable. And because of that, I would say, what has worked in the past and this has been agreed with other people that have either been sign painters or do this kind of work that I've done, everybody agrees. You've got to have a pretty big basket of offerings to get through the tough times. And I think that's the way it has to be looked at. Many years ago, decades ago, There were shops that would specialize in XYZ and now most painters, they're doing a really wide variety. So, you know, like the shop that I grew up in and my dad's shop, you know, that was all, everything was based on vehicles. It was, you know, hot rod stuff. It was, you know, you name it. It was, if it had wheels, we were painting something on it.

Um, and especially now, I don't think you can do that. I don't think you specialize in this is the thing that I do. I only work on these things because, you know, to keep enough work humming in, you might have to also learn doing some gold leaf on glass. You might have to do some engraving and like, that's the thing that I'm branching into just out of sheer interest. I started that whole, you know, journey, uh, over three years ago, but I think you have to diversify and offer a lot of different things so that when things do get challenging economically, you've got enough different offerings out there to keep yourself moving.

Which isn't the same thing, you know, along the lines of integrity, that's still keeping your integrity because as long as every single thing that you're doing, you're doing it from a place of like the highest level of craftsmanship and artistry and those kinds of things, then, you know, you're still keeping your integrity. You're just having to do it in a way that keeps the money coming in as opposed to altering.

Like the work itself to get the money to come in and that's where the temptation is. Yeah. So keep your integrity. Never alter your work based on criticism. Never alter your work based on commercial gain.

Thanks everybody. Thank you. See you next time.

Hi everybody, welcome back to the Artist Tao podcast. We're here with Sean Starr and I'm Jenny and working on our next principle, define your own success. Never measure the level of your success as an artist by financial gain. Define what success means to you and let that be your guide.

I think that's a really sovereign approach. What do you mean by sovereign?

Well, we make our own choices, right? I can be at the effect of what I'm thinking or what I'm defining in my life, or I can pause a minute and create something different. Yeah, and I think it's a universal truth that if you're not making those choices, someone else is going to make them for you. So it's really important to...

We talk about this a lot actually with choices we've made in our living lifestyle, where we live, how we want to approach life in the next say, five, 10, 20 years. What does success mean to us? That's something that we discuss a lot, not only individually, but as a couple. And I think that's a really great way to look at it. What does success mean to you?

Yeah, and it took me years to figure out that if you're not creating those definitions or identifying those definitions in your own mind, you're just kind of floating around. And...

I think it's extra important for a person who's working as an artist to look at those issues because you're sharing something, if it's being done right, because you're sharing something that's really at the core of who you are. If you don't have it sorted out, as far as things like defining success, Uh, it's real easy to get pulled in different directions because of the ego and the ego gets excited when, Oh, I get to work with this famous person or I get to have all of this attention on this project I did or the show that I'm doing. It's really easy for the ego to kind of like start steering you around. Whereas if you've defined something like, well,

What does it mean to be successful to you? You know, and that's different for every person. You know, one person might be like, well, I don't ever want to work a nine to five job again. Another person might be, well, I want to live in a mansion. Another person might be, well, I want to, you know, have the freedom and autonomy to live life on my own terms as much as possible. But if you don't know what that is for you, what that success looks like for you, then you're going to be steered around by, in some cases, people that are much craftier than you, who are. entrenched in the business of taking whatever it is that people like yourself create and turning that into, you know, big money and opportunity for themselves. So I think most artists tend to be a little bit naive. I'm speaking of myself, a little bit naive, a little bit, um, this mindset that people are like, really looking out for you and really want to help you. And that is true sometimes, but it's not true all the time. And there are people that can enter into your life that don't have good intentions, that say all the right things, that because you've protected, the part of yourself that is expressive and that is kind of childlike and joyful that's allowing you to create art that connects with other people. You also have to then become the protector of that part of yourself from people who come in and see opportunity and say, oh, well, I can lead this person into this or this situation and I can cash in on that. And that's happened to many, many, many people. Do you think? Well, there's I think there's an obvious difference. I'm not trying to be like, whatever here, but with social media, with television these days, YouTube, all these things, would you say as an artist, perhaps people who are coming up now younger people 18, 19, 20, who really love to create, would you recommend before they start engaging all on social media, maybe for them to decide for themselves what success means to them. And I would imagine that changes over time. Yeah, it's definitely changed for me over time. But you still have to have that as like some kind of guiding light in your decision making. The definition I have for success in my life now is, freedom and autonomy. When I was younger, it was a little bit more on the material side of things because I was still struggling financially with a lot of things and I figured if I could just break through, then that would allow me to stabilize things. And I think that's a natural thing to a certain extent because no one's going to be happy in poverty.

But yeah, it does change. It's still relatively the same idea in my mind, but it does change throughout life and circumstance and things shifting around and different phases of life and things like that, I would think. Well, would you say that with social media and all the stuff? I mean, we always had, I mean, since I was young, we always had TV, right?

And so I would imagine...

Even when we were younger, when you were 20 and 21, was that still a fat, like were you listening? How do you stay true to your definition of a success? If you have all these people telling you on TikTok and on Reels and on Shorts like, oh, you need this, you gotta do this, you gotta do that. Like, I guess it gets back to how do you stay centered? Like from our other principle we were talking about. Staying on task. That's stubbornness. And it You know, stubbornness has a negative connotation in most contexts when it's talked about, but it can also be a really good thing. And you have to find healthy ways to... utilize your stubborn nature. Everyone's got one and you have to find ways to just still get along with everyone and be enthused about life and lighthearted and then balance that with stubbornly sticking to the things that are important to you. For somebody who's 18, 19, 20 and they're embarking on their journey of they want to be a full -time artist, painting, sculpting, how would you suggest they term it like, this is what I'm gonna do for the next five years, this is my definition of success, is there like different levels, short term, long term?

This is challenging. There's multiple principles in the book that go way beyond just like an advice for artists from other artists kind of thing. It's bigger stuff. And I think that's maybe where you're getting into with this is...

Well, what I'm thinking about is if I'm 18 or 19, 20.

You know, you do have to think about a long -term game, right? Cause it's a long game. It's not a sprint, but at the same time it's like, okay, so maybe I'm an artist and I'm in, um, in the Midwest and I'm going to do my thing here for five years and then decide to switch, switch it up. And you know, would that be advisable or I guess it's each to, you know what I mean? You're opening up can of worms and I'll, I'll, I'll dive in. Um, it's really about independence. And If you don't recognize that early on, you're going to get dragged around by everybody else. And that's been my life's experience. That's been my observation and conversation with dozens and dozens of other people who've stuck it out and done it as well. It's the nature of society to make you conform. And if you don't maintain your independence and your independence of thinking and your independence of motivations and definitions of things like success, then... you've got no chance at becoming truly expressive because you have to be.

You have to be what society deems as crazy.

Society wants you to go through the school system and then go into the corporate system and buy the big house and the fancy car and put your kids through the school system so they can go into the corporate system and they can buy the big house and fancy car. Anything that's outside of that, you are crazy. You are... And... So that's when it's, when I'm saying define your success and not have it be about finding until gain. That's what I'm talking about is. There's a whole system that's in place that is all about telling you this is what success looks like. And it is the same formula that is being fed to everyone. And the suburbs of America are full of this. And it's that stay in your lane, get this kind of job, rack up credit card debt and just stay on the treadmill. And hopefully when you are older and worn out and out of energy and out of enthusiasm and everything's been extracted from you, then hopefully you can cash in your retirement and you can go live the life you've really wanted to live all this time. And it's not true and it doesn't work out, but that's That's what everyone's being told to do. And so if you allow that definition to define what success is for you, then you don't even start trying to pursue the path of an artist. You mean the definition we're being fed. The definition we're being fed, but also once you, once you start entering into the arena of like, I am creating artwork, I'm sharing it with the world and I'm, looking for ways to support myself so that I don't have to have that definition, then there's a whole other set of things you have to confront related to that definition of success because that's a whole mechanism.

The gallery system's a great example of that. If you sit down and you start breaking down the numbers that, okay, here's a, let's say a $10 ,000 painting, which most entry -level artists and even established artists would be thrilled to get $10 ,000 painting. Well, most galleries are going to take 50 to 60, up to 70 % of that, some even 80 if they're really high level gallery. So now let's say you're keeping $4,000 of that painting and they're taking six.

If you sold a painting a month at $10 ,000 a painting, most artists starting out would be like, wow, that's amazing. I can't believe I'm getting $10 ,000 for my work. Well, you're not. And now you're having to support yourself on $48 ,000 a year after the gallery has taken its commission. But that's not $48,000 a year that you're living on, because you're operating a business. So you have to have the expenses of your studio, your supplies, your canvas, your, your marketing stuff, your traveling to shows, you're doing whatever. And now all of a sudden you're maybe making 25, $30,000 to live on. So you have to recognize this whole idea of defining your success.

Because if it's defined in, first of all, the mainstream, stay in your lane, do everything we say to do and become part of the corporate machine, then you're never going to pursue art in the first place. And then once you've determined that, yes, I'm going to make it work and I'm going to use the framework that's in place, that framework has its own, that it's created. And that's for you to… work and refine your work to a level that galleries can tap into it and they can tell your backstory and market you and they can sell to their clientele, but you're still living at a poverty wage. So it's the success thing. And that's why I say independence is what my life's experience has taught me is the most valuable thing as an artist and as a human being is stay independent. And so I would imagine asking that question. So for somebody out there, they're, they're going to do a gallery show or something. Ask how, how will this support my independence? How will this move me more towards independence? Yeah. Always asking that question. Right. And I, and I want to be clear on that too. That's not to say there may, you may be really shrewd and crafty and figure out how to utilize going through the gallery path and making that your independence. And if you can figure that out, then more power to you, applause. But just recognize what you're dealing with.

So define your own success.

Never measure the level of your success as an artist by financial gain. Define what success means to you and let that be your guide. So I think that was great. You know what you just said about the galleries and, um, and really also defining your success is knowing yourself too. Yeah. And.

We live in this world that has probably always been this way, but you have to support yourself and you have to live your life and pay your bills and all of that. I don't even think it's necessarily looking for like, well, how can I take what I do and turn that into a living? That's part of that whole like, hustle culture thing that I think was a mistake too. It may be that it's just adjusting what your viewpoint of success. So in the context of independence, it may be that living in a simple place and working in a coffee shop and just using that to cover your bills gives you the free head space and the freedom of time to work on your artwork and maybe your artwork never supports you financially. And that's okay. It's just don't let anything corrupt the artwork, including other people's definition of success so that that's where all the compromise is gonna start coming in. Where if you're defining your success on, you know, having this show and this gallery or this... you know, amount of sales of your record or whatever it is, then you're going to make compromises most likely to get that.

And if you start compromising that, then you might as well just pack it in.

The Artist Tao.

Hi everybody, welcome back to the Artist Tao podcast and we're gonna move on to our next principle. Fight discouragement. Some people around you will want you to fail. Your success may reveal their shortcomings. You cannot allow this to alter your path.

Yes. What do you think about that? This has been true consistently for over 30 years to me, and that is that there... I don't think it's intentional with most people that they, you know, there's a lot of people that have cheered me on and been very supportive over the years. And so I don't think it's intentional, but for reasons that they may not even know. People can sometimes discourage you from pursuing what it is that you wanna do as a creative person because my belief is that it reveals something in themselves that they're not happy about, of choices they've made. And so it's...

There's that whole description of the bucket of crabs and one's trying to climb out and the rest pull them down. It's a whole thing. So I think that that's.

observably true that people can do that to you. And you really have to fight that because it's very easy to resort to what's comfortable and just stay in your lane. And most people do that. Yeah. Would you say from when we say art is love, right? And have you ever heard the term that

love brings up everything unlike itself. And so if you're a creator, an artist, and you're bringing forth love, basically, right, when you say art is love, love is eternal, that to me means if you're bringing forth that love in the form of art, that perhaps it does shine a light on those places maybe that need some light. Yeah, and that's...

That's one of those things that, you know, you're, you're stirring the pot by creating artwork because it does connect and resonate with people. And the result of that, um, isn't always going to be warm and fuzzy and accolades. Sometimes it's going to agitate people. Even if the artwork itself is innocuous, it, it may challenge somebody who's engaging with it in a way that they don't really even understand. And then they turn that agitation towards you in the form of discouraging you from continuing. Yeah, so I would imagine it's important to remember not to take on that whatever they're giving out to you. It's important to really understand who you are as a person, to some extent, so that you're not taking on that.

Criticism in a way that would send you down a place for not creating anymore or something like to stifle that, like you're saying here, fight discouragement. Yeah, and it's very easy to do because... It's easy to do which part? It's easy to internalize that. And that's one of the biggest challenges of staying on track, of pursuing whatever your creative expression is, is staying out of your own head and then keeping other people out of your head. Would that be the pro tip? I don't know what you mean. Like what is your pro tip for staying out of your head? Like to stay on course and to fight discouragement? What would be some highlights of things that you do that keep you steady in that? In my case, that I would say is daily meditation practice returns me to a point where it's very easy if I don't do that to kind of drift and then kind of get caught back up in the mire of my own overthinking or allowing other people's thoughts to alter my course. Whereas if I'm disciplined and regular with my meditation practice, that's that puts me back in touch with the real nature of things and of who I am in this world and how I can bring that expression out. So that works for me. I suppose other people might find different ways to do that and exercise or other things as well. But for me, it's the meditation that puts me back in the middle.

So staying centered.

Yeah, for sure because at the core of this particular principle is the fact that the discouragement is going to come and it can come from within your own mind, it can come from others minds and words and actions and if you're not prepared to push back against that, it will win.

And I think that's, we see it so often where people are passionate about something, people wanna do something and then all of a sudden they kind of disappear from the scene and they're working in a coffee shop or at their uncle's accounting firm or whatever because they just, I don't think it's a lack of commitment as much as they, underestimated the amount of fight that you'd have to face. You know, there's that cliche, if everyone was, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it kind of thing. And you know, it is, it's something you've got to kind of prepare yourself and steal yourself for that you're going to deal with challenges if you decide to do something that's out of the norm. Any kind of creative pursuit is certainly that.

I would imagine too, you know, when you're creating art, it does touch people. It touches people's hearts. And I don't know that sometimes as an artist, maybe you're not prepared for that or you kind of, you maybe don't, you're making art from your heart, right? And you're not attached to certainly how it will affect somebody else. And I would think, would you agree with that? Yes. And that can be very, um, can take a person off guard because...

If you're so much in the head space of the creating of the work and then I want people to engage with it so I'm going to have a show or I'm going to put out music or whatever you're doing, you can get so lost in that that you're not really addressing the fact that you can create this connection with people that is genuine and heartfelt.

And that really can throw you off guard where when you see it and I've experienced this where I was in Ireland doing a project and someone had approached me specifically about this book, the first edition of it. And, you know, it had been, I think it was, you know, six years since that had come out in 2008. And I was just completely caught off guard because the person was very enthusiastic and was like, Hey, I loved your book. And I didn't, it took me a few minutes to even register. What are you, what are you talking about? Yeah. But, but you know, to the, to them, it was, it was like really important and meaningful that, you know, Hey, I'm in Ireland. I live here and I read your book, you know, several years ago and now you're here. And, you know, um, so yeah, that can surely catch you off guard or you don't even really, you get so wrapped up. Like I was so wrapped up in, I'm out here to do this project with one of my favorite bands, the Cranberries growing up, you know, and all this stuff. And you totally can lose sight of the fact that there's individuals out there that are engaging with something that you've done or doing that has nothing to do with like, Hey, look at how cool this is. I'm getting to do this high profile thing.

So what keeps you humble?

Yeah. That's a good question. And I don't know. I think a person has to work at maintaining humility, not taking yourself too seriously. And I think for myself, what helps me catch myself when I'm feeling a little too full of myself, which everyone does at times, is...

Like we're here for a very short time. And without that connection that we create with other people, this is a meaningless period of time. And so if you're just pursuing wealth or you're pursuing fame or you're pursuing all the things that everyone knows are shallow things, if that's your main focus, you know, 70, 80, 90 years on the planet, that's a blip. And if I remind myself of that, then none of the things that I've had the privilege of doing really even matter that much compared to, you know, the connection. I think a lot about that scene in the Art Is love, Nepal documentary that we shot where I'm in the upstairs with the papermaker and he's serving tea and we're having that great conversation. And, you know, I told Dan and Sarah this multiple times, you know, after we filmed that, like that interaction to me was like surpassed everything that we did out there and what we were able to film and the story we were able to tell about the craftsmen out there, that event, that connection with him in that conversation would have never occurred if it wasn't for the larger project involved, but that had more meaning than just about anything else that we experienced out there to me. So what you're saying to stay humble is everybody, each of us making meaning, giving meaning to what we're doing in our life, our purpose, meaning and purpose. Only we can determine that really.

Each of us giving meaning. I'm not sure. I think you're saying the same thing. It's just you're saying it in a different way. But...

Yeah, I heard you, I asked you about staying humble and you said about remembering the meaning or the meaning of what you're doing. And so I was just reflecting that is that what you're saying is that we each give our own, we each give our own meaning to what we're doing. We give ourselves a meaning and purpose. Like we identify that in ourselves. Somebody doesn't give that somebody doesn't say, well, you're an artist so you can do that. Yes. I think what I meant more though was just, you know, checking yourself and looking at.

Like so much of the things that we insist are important aren't important at all. And we all know, you've heard these stories of the rich guy on his deathbed and he wishes he had spent more time with family and friends, that kind of thing. And those have almost become this cliche thing where everyone kind of rolls their eyes like, well, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that is, that is true. If you get wrapped up in the opportunities that come your way that you're allowed to go do and participate in, and it's very easy to do. It's very easy to get into that head space of like, well, look at this, I must be doing something important. And...

But we all get sick and we all, you know, there's all, we all have a, an ending and pending different rates according to where you are in the timeline, but we all have that. And that's helpful to me to keep myself out of the head space of like, wow, I got to do X, Y, Z. That must mean like, I'm pretty cool. Yeah. You've reached this thing. Yeah, because it all goes away. There's no such thing as legacy and people delude themselves on that too, I think, where you're going to make something that lives long after you.

You know, there are artists that have succeeded in that sense. But even that, what's the point? You know, like we've mentioned this before, but Van Gogh, if I'm remembering correctly, I don't think he sold one painting in his lifetime. And now he's long gone and lived a very struggled life creating that artwork that no one was really able to engage with in his lifetime. He's gone.

And now there's billionaires who are selling his paintings back and forth like trading cards. It's bizarre. And it doesn't change the fact that he struggled with the things he struggled with and he had the relationships he had. He had a close relationship with his brother and probably terrible relationships with other people because he was kind of volatile. But, In the end, once you're gone, what does that matter? And conversely, I see like, you know, there's pop stars and things that get really famous for music or actors or things like that, that, you know, they're notorious for living like this kind of off the rails, the botched life and everything. And, you know, you hear stories of ones OD’ing and everything else. Like they're clearly not happy living in that bubble of, of fame. So I think it's just important to look at things like humility. That is part of the fight aspect too, of with the fighting discouragement is also like fighting those other things that come along that can rob you of happiness and joy and you know, the things in relationships that do contribute something good for you.

It's kind of what we talk about the eat or be eaten. Yeah, I like that phrase a lot. Yeah. When you had, how old were you when you had that gallery or at the coffee shop in San Antonio?

I had to have been either 20 or 21, I think. And what would you tell your 21 -year -old self in regards to this principle, fight discouragement? Some people around you will want you to fail. Your success may reveal their shortcomings. You cannot allow this to alter your path. What would you say?

None of it matters.

Yeah, none of it matters.

It's the process of creating artwork, this is my opinion, the process of creating it and the process of sharing it that matters. And the outcome doesn't matter, the historical milestone that you get to put on your little notepad of life, that doesn't matter.

And the discouragement that you may inject into your own mind, others may inject into your own mind, doesn't matter. Because if you continue and you continue to expand how you express yourself and how you share that, then you're building connections and relationship with other people. And...

I really like the concept in non-dual Eastern philosophy of you're the ocean, you're not the wave. And I think it's that. We could debate for hours on what this all means, our experience of life and our being conscious beings and all of these things, but at the end of the day, we're where this little blip on the radar and during that blip we can make a contribution and the only contribution that has meaning is connection to the rest of consciousness and the rest of humanity as we know it. So all of these other things don't matter. And I wish I could give myself that advice at 20, 21 years old because at that age I was so... I was so wrapped up in it had to matter because of other things I was years and years away from addressing in my life. And so there was this, I think mindset that... that if I was able to accomplish this, then it invalidated all of these other things that were just personal struggle things that I had to work through. Those things wouldn't be important if I would just accomplish this. Those things wouldn't be a hurdle anymore. They wouldn't be things I'd have to fix. They wouldn't be things I'd have to confront. This would fix it.

And so actually I was gonna say this or ask this question and you just touched on it. So when we're saying fighting discouragement, we were talking before, it's not just outside discouragement, people, you know, whatever process they're in because of the artwork or what you're creating. There's also the internal discouragement. So what I heard you say was like, it was almost like you do have to listen to those internal things or work through them.

In a sense, like you can't, you're not just not ever addressing them. Like what I heard you say was that whatever you weren't addressing, you were saying that this had to happen or you had to do this. It had to make a difference because. Yeah, but I think that's more a life thing than an art thing. I think that's just, that stuff's going to come get you. And again, eat or be eaten.

Welcome back everybody. We're here at the Artists Tao podcast with Jenny and Sean Starr. We're gonna talk about our next principle, which is a great one. And it is endurance. Endurance must be cultivated to grow, take a deep breath and prepare for a long journey.

I have a lot to say about this.

Why don't you start?

Well, when I hear the word endurance, If as you know, some of the energy work I study, it's like they always put, you know, dark and light. So if you're in the dark and endurance, it seems like a slog and you're just like enduring, enduring, enduring doesn't seem great. But in the light to have endurance, you have capacity, you have strength, you've got flexibility, I feel like is all in that endurance. And to know that you're engaging with things at the best level possible that, it makes for the process to be more enjoyable.

Yeah, I guess you could look at it in those two polarities of like a positive and a negative take on it.

I mean, but like I can choose which one I can put myself in. You know what I mean? So I'm the only one that can. You know, like one school of thought is like that's enlightened duality if I'm the only one that can Decide which way to go. It's never just this or that. I'm the third party in that, you know, yeah

Yeah, so I I think this is probably one of the most important ones in the whole book to me because it's so easy to to drop out, and I'm not even talking about the larger picture of like, just stick with it until you find your spot in the world, and you know, that's true, but it's even on the micro scale, you're looking at, you know, there's roadblocks you hit in the middle of a project, and if you don't see it through, you either cut a corner and, the work isn't as good as it could have been, or you just, the worst case would be to just give up in general with the project and like scrap it. If you don't develop that endurance to stick with it through your own, you know, stuff that you're playing in your head and your own insecurities about it, like you'll never have a clue whether, you're going to end up with something that's meaningful to you, that's a genuine expression and that it's meaningful to other people. So the endurance aspect is just huge.

Must be cultivated to grow.

Yeah, I think... I heard this term once, spiritual athlete. It's like everybody in a way is an athlete. You have to keep yourself in shape. Yeah. I think.

Yeah. That's probably very true. And that does take discipline. And that's the point of cultivated is... You have to keep that in front of yourself at all times and ask yourself, So if you're doing a project with artwork that's commercial in nature, you typically are given a deadline. And you have to create that work within that framework of a deadline and do your best at it within that timeframe. And so the endurance of that is that you've got to make it happen within the timeframe and get the result that's the best result possible.

When you're talking about a project that you're doing just as a pure artistic expression that's, you know, I'm gonna make this painting, I'm gonna take as long as I want on it. If you don't have the endurance to, and I think most artists have experienced this, I know I certainly have, is you get into the real... you know, nitty gritty of the project and you realize that to get that certain effect is now gonna take a lot longer than you had anticipated. Once you start executing the little corner, you're like, oh wow. A good example is the big Buddha painting that we used for the cover of the book. You know, I worked on that for many months and there were certain parts of it like the texture and pattern, that once I started executing it, I was like, oh wow, to make this look right is gonna be a little bit of a beating. And it was, I probably spent more time on that robe than I did the rest of the painting. But if you don't endure through that, then every time you look at that painting, you're gonna look at the robe and say, wow, I really cut corners on that and now I'm not happy with it.

Yeah, and I would imagine that's probably pretty experiential. Maybe, I don't know if there's been projects. Since we have known each other, I always feel like you've had that endurance to complete it. You know it's going to take a long time, and you also can see the outcome. So I would imagine, is there some experience of not necessarily enduring it and just kind of cutting a corner and then afterwards being like, ugh.

Yeah, and that's the cultivate part is when you've cut corners, you know, which I did more when I was younger and you don't get the result that you know you could have gotten if you would have, you know, stuck it out, then you end up with something that you're like, and even if everybody or the client or whatever is like, wow, this looks great. You just, you go to yourself, okay, well, I know it could have been way cooler than this, you know.

Right.

Yeah, prepare for a long journey. Yeah, I think that's what I mean. You really have to have the mindset of its endurance in the light. You know, you're gaining capacity, you're getting stronger. Well, for me, that's where I go. This will be something that I'll be stronger in the long term.

Yeah, and Sarah from Exploredinary, I can't remember if this is what she did, what she said in the Q and A in Dallas when we screened the Nepal film there, I think is in that Q and A where she said, you know, that one of the reasons that they wanted to work with me initially, you know, seven years ago was because I was, um, I had stubbornly, I had the stubbornness to like stick with the trade of sign painting and all of that. And, um, I mean, that's the other aspect of endurance is, you know, if you've stuck it out with whatever you're doing, you know, sometimes it's just a matter of the situation to change on your behalf. And that's what happened with sign painting. Those of us that were stubborn enough to keep going with it after computers took over and, you know, people were, you know, oh, I can get cut vinyl letters now and it's... computer perfect and it's cheap. And there was this period where saying that you did something by hand and hand painted it was really looked at with disdain in the area I was at the time. After my father's death, I had moved up to Seattle and that's where Microsoft was booming and everything was high tech. And you know, the sign shop that I was working in at the time, I would ask them, I'm like, why don't we do this one in paint? This would look phenomenal in paint. And they're just like, oh man, he just doesn't get it.

So - Like would they tell Michelangelo he just doesn't get it?

Yeah, well, not a Michelangelo out there of sign painting, but -

You know, it just, you were faced with either it's time to just hang this up and get on this computerized train, or I still really love doing this. I know there's people out there that like it and I'm gonna keep going. And so you have this period of time where it's being abandoned by the public in general.

And they're all going into this new direction. I feel like this might cross over in the future, near future with AI and things like that. And then, some years go by and all of a sudden people are so over saturated with digital things that there's a whole new generation of people that are like, well, wait, I want to see what this could be done if somebody, you know, a craftsperson did this. And then sign painting all of a sudden starts to become a thing again. And then the documentary came out and the book came out and you know, it opened up a whole new opportunity for a lot of us. So. Yeah. And if, if there's not endurance in a situation like that, like you miss out on all that. And a lot of people did, you know, I knew a lot of sign shop owners that, you know, they went out and bought the machine and, you know, started cutting vinyl and slowly, you know, got rid of all the paint stuff in their shop. And, you know, might've built nice little businesses for themselves financially.

But when sign painting really started to have a renaissance and people started asking for it again on a much larger scale, I did see some of those people resurface and they were really like, wow, I used to paint signs. It's like, well, yeah, but you stopped. You could have rolled that into something new.

When you were, how did you endure that time that you were working at the sign shop? So for you personally, I know, I know it was creative. I think from what you said, it was creative. You had, you were kind of getting to be creative, but so what did you do after hours? Anything? Or was it, it was, it was a period of pure survival.

It lasted about four and a half, five years where I was working in sign shops up there that there, it was all digital only. There was no work you could find anywhere doing painted work. And, um, like I said, there was a disdain, you know, you couldn't find anybody that, that wanted to hire somebody to do something painted, at least in the sphere I was in. I mean, there might've been guys out there. Um, and, I was trying to make the best of that situation and, um, you know, learn. I did have an employer that, you know, you know, sent me to color theory classes and gave, you know, gave me training and things like that on how to, you know, work computers, you know, years and years ago. And I'm grateful that I had that training because it did add a whole new layer of understanding to the work that I had been trained to do all by hand, I kind of started to understand the principles behind a lot of it better, as well as learned how to use the computer, which needed to be incorporated in some level and just operating a business. But my creative outlet was doing things at home on the weekends.

So. Building a deck.

Painting, you know, still messing around with like pinstriping brushes and just doing little hobbyish decorative things and painting murals in my house and doing all sorts of things that kind of kept me moving until I figured out I absolutely hate this. I don't ever want to do this. And I'm going back to painting signs, even if I starve, which I came close to, until it kicked in. But, I mean, that's just part of a learning process. But again, it's the endurance. I never let that go. It took me several years to figure out, like, what do I do from here? But I didn't just walk away from it.

Yeah, I feel like, did you have an idea that, you know, you must have had a good attitude of, yes, I'm enduring this process, and you felt like it was leading you to something else? Did you feel like, I had a terrible attitude.

I did.

Was it like enduring like, I'm just going to, you know.

No, it was just a stubborn thing in the background because, you know, I was going through some really, really heavy duty depression and I was, you know, in the final years of a failing marriage. And yeah, it was pretty bleak. The upside is, is when I came out of that and got into a new situation, it was almost like this, and you're running here, you're running there, you're doing this, you're agreeing to, yeah, I'll do that show and I'll go over here. It was pretty insane, probably. But there was so much pent up stuff of working through the personal issues of my life that when I was able to fully be working creatively again, it was like an explosion.

I was just, I was everywhere doing everything and everything was just like bright colors.

So do you feel like now after having that experience, when you think of enduring something, you know that it's for a higher purpose? Like there's something, there's going to be fruit at the end of that rather than like kind of just not knowing, getting angry about it.

I don't even think it's like there's a reward at the end type thing. It's more, I tried the other way and it was miserable. And I don't have any intention of being miserable again. So it's more, these are the things that I have observed have led to good results in working and living as an artist and supporting myself as an artist. And these are the things that work. Like these don't end up in me being miserable and depressed and you know, out of my mind. So these are the things that I'll do.

Prepare for a long journey.

Yeah, it is definitely that.

That's good, huh?

Welcome back everybody. Thanks for joining us here at the Artist’s Tao with Jenny and Sean Starr. We're having some tea today and we're going to explore our next principle of the Artist's Tao and this principle is to explore. Do not become attached to one single means of expression. Do not trap yourself.

This is also a big one.

I think so.

Do you like again, as I know that you were saying that when you wrote this book back in 06 around then that you were sort of it was sort of a sum of exploring actually, I think on your part. So do you can you do they do they remind you of when you sort of brought them forward? Was there a certain experiences that you were experiencing? Is it a sum of all your experiences?

I think on this particular one it was more about giving myself permission.

You know, I started playing guitar when I was, I think I was 12 when I got my first guitar. And I had already, you know, I'd done paintings of birds, as I mentioned in another episode. And, you know, I had dabbled in a lot of things, because then when I got into working in my dad's shop, you know, that was... you know, all custom paint work and pinstriping and lettering and all these different kinds of things. And I think by the time that I was putting these ideas in place, especially with this idea of exploring, I was giving myself permission to just kind of explore being creative in all these different areas that I've had interest in.

And it kind of goes again of defining yourself, that principle. If you don't define yourself, somebody else is going to, especially in art, I feel. And so for me, it was giving myself permission to, you know, if I want to get involved in a music project, I get involved in a music project and, you know, like writing this book and, you know, some of the other books I published, you know, it was giving myself permission to like explore, expressing myself in all sorts of ways, not just painting or not just, you know, lettering, those kinds of things.

And was that after a time where you felt like perhaps maybe you had kind of given yourself, put yourself in a position where you were just doing one thing or you were just like getting comfortable in something?

Yeah, I think it was just kind of clearing the deck. Like in 2005, when I moved to San Francisco, and had come out of a big life change and gone through a divorce and all these different things and getting off prescription medications, all this different stuff converging at the same time. It was like kind of this regrouping of like... You know, now I've got this opportunity. Now I've got this opportunity to like really explore being creative across the board, not just like, you know, having always done creative work for a living from teenager on, it was like, okay, how far can I and do I want to take this as opposed to like, you know, oh, well, I'm at work, and I've got this sign to paint or this thing to design or whatever, and then I'm gonna go home and that's not what I'm doing with the rest of my time, if that makes sense.

What do you think the, I know you were talking about defining yourself, not only in the previous episode, but just now. So what do you think are some dangers or pitfalls if you get stuck or you become too attached to, you're only this kind of artist or you're only doing this kind of thing.

No dangers other than life is not nearly as fun.

Because if you kind of just unload the baggage and just let yourself be creative in whatever way, you know, hits you. And some of those things you might not even be that good at. But it's way more fun to just jump in and be like, you know, oh, these guys are getting together and they're going to play music. I'll jump in and play some guitar with them. And then, you know, you know, maybe maybe I'll put together this fun little goofy video thing that I've been wanting to do that I have this idea in my head. You know, whatever it is, you know, that's way more fun to me.

Yeah, I would agree. So you're not sitting on the sidelines basically sort of watching everything just kind of go by because maybe one has put themselves in one particular spot.

Like I just do this. I don't do that. Yeah. This or that type of thing. And it's kind of like exercising muscle memory. You know, when you're learning how to paint signs, for instance, you know, you have to develop muscle memory. And so you're repeating brushstrokes over and over and over and over again to infinity.

Um, but something starts to kick in and it's the same thing that I experienced when I learned how to play guitar and, and a lot of other things is, you know, you do this repetition and it's clumsy and it's awkward and it doesn't sound good or it doesn't look good. And then all of a sudden it starts to, it starts to take. And I feel that's the same with, uh, being creative across the board is the more you give yourself that permission to do it and do it in many different ways and areas of your life, not just the thing that you've chosen to do or the thing that has been chosen for you to do by popularity or something. And so you're kind of just going with that thing. If you keep exercising, you know, creative problem solving and creative expression and all these different things, then you kind of end up where that muscle memory of that kicks in at a certain point. And then you just, that's kind of how you're doing everything.

Do you think that it's like listening to your heart more? Like, do you think we become, like, do we become attached because maybe we're too much in our head about thinking like, “shoulding” on ourselves, basically, should do this, I should do that.

Yeah, okay. I see what you're saying. Yeah, I would say that's probably accurate of doing things, developing an instinct for being creative. Yeah, like instead of being a robot, you're doing mechanical. Or overthinking it and stalling yourself out because then you're starting to analyze, well, maybe I should do this, shouldn't do that. Maybe I should do it this way, not that way, as opposed to just kind of, I mean, it doesn't matter.

And that's the most freeing thing a person can get to with art is it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. The details don't matter. If people like it on a large scale or not, doesn't matter. None of it matters. It's you interacting with your ideas and expressions in the world and putting those ideas together in a way that you can share them with other people.

And sometimes they land, sometimes they don't, and that doesn't matter.

Why? Because it's coming from that pure place like we were talking about.

Yeah, if you're doing it right, if you're not attached to the outcome of, wow, this got a lot of popularity, this got a lot of likes, I sold a lot of this thing. If you're not attached to any of that and you're just really solely focused on... creating something for the purpose of being involved in that creative act, then you're creating and it's coming from a real genuine place.

Yeah, I guess we... can hinder ourselves. We're our own worst enemy, I would say.

For sure. And a lot of these in the book, especially revisiting when we had talked about republishing it and revising it and changing it up a little bit, it was really interesting to me to come revisit this all these years later since the first one was released of. These are really synonymous with truisms of living and being. It's not uniquely specific to art of, I mean, even though these things are specific to working as an artist and supporting yourself and an artist and all of that, it's also simultaneously true with just living in general and living a good fulfilling life, I feel.

Yeah, I would agree. I think, you know, thus far it's like, it feels to me like also principles to be present.

Yeah. Yeah. And again, I mean, when you're putting something like this together and you're coming out of like this big life change and, you know, you had put all of these things on hold, that you want to now pursue because your situation's different and your circumstance is different. A lot of this was, in retrospect, like putting a compilation together of conversations I had with other artists, my own thoughts at the time, and kind of giving myself either a roadmap or permission to like, how am I going to do this going forward? Like what... what things are going to be my, you know, along my path, what are gonna be my little guides on these different things. And it's really strange and interesting to look back and see how true so much of it was.

And can you speak to, when you were talking about it, it's like a little bit like... flexing or exercising a muscle, right? The giving yourself permission part. Can you speak a little bit more about that?

Yeah, just like so many things, when you're working on your art form, whatever that primary art form is, that you're really spending lots and lots of hours and giving a lot of thought.

The more that you're doing it and the more you're practicing it, the easier it gets. And that's again, universally true, whether it's a person going to a gym and working out, or it's a person sitting and meditating. Like that's why they, you know, call it practicing meditation is because you're, you know, you're refining that ability to get into that space. And the same is true of, um, your artistic pursuits is, those things get more easeful over time, the more that you're doing them. And it is, it's like exercising a muscle to where, you know, if you go out and try to lift a, you know, 50 pound bag of bird seed and move it around today, that might be difficult. Whereas if you're working your body out and everything, and you come back to do that same thing a month later, that might seem like, you know, you're lifting up nothing, like a loaf of bread. So yeah, the more you do it, the more easeful it becomes.

I was gonna say this reminds me of practice. It's almost like a similar thing. But I was thinking it's kind of not because like when you're talking about giving yourself permission to explore, it's like, it's you're even simply giving yourself permission to explore trying something different.

So it's almost like you have to practice that even.

Yeah. And some people more than others, you know, like depending on your upbringing and you know, whatever programming was instilled in you, like that might be a real struggle for some people of just getting over that of, you know, stay in your lane, stay in your box. You know, you don't need to be messing with these things. If that's the messaging you got growing up, then that would be really hard. I always joke that I was raised feral. So my experience has been a different set of challenges to overcome because of my upbringing, which I'm convinced everyone's got a set of challenges from their upbringing no matter what it is. It's the thing they have to work through. Some parents are overprotective, some parents are underprotective, some parents are completely checked out and not there. It's... whatever your set of influences are that you are given, you're going to have to wrangle with that. Especially when you talk about in art, there's so much of it that comes from like deep down inside expression that there are all these things that wrestling with each other, you know?

Yeah, I don't, I guess really nobody's immune from the itty bitty shitty committee. I'm just gonna say it.

No one here gets out alive.

Yeah, that's for sure. That's for sure. Yeah.

And I think that last little part, the don't trap yourself, is a really, it's a thing that's popped up to me year after year for many years now of, we kind of get in this place where, in this head space where we're, you we have a tendency, I would say, to, be concerned about, well, what are people thinking about this? What are they thinking about this work that I did? What are they thinking about the way I'm presenting this? The reality over time that I've discovered that I am convinced is true is no one's thinking anything about those things. Everybody's busy. They got their own baggage and concerns, you know, and it's so easy to trap yourself into, these thought patterns of what we should be doing or what we can't do, or maybe I shouldn't get involved in playing that music thing because I want to be a painter and people need to just see me as a painter. It's all these crazy thoughts that we all wrestle with until you get to the point where you realize that no one's... no one's got the time or energy to be thinking about you and whatever you've got going on. And that's very liberating if you can get.

Once that kicks in, then you're just kind of off to the races because it's like, nothing can hold you back.

I wonder if you know how we were talking about a few minutes ago about that the exploring part maybe comes like, is like, is something to practice is simply the art of exploring or giving oneself permission to explore, right? Do you think you can get addicted to that without actually fault, like getting you know, finding something that you want to practice to kind of refine.

Oh, that's a good point. And yeah, and I've seen it with a lot of people. And I think that's one of the downsides of like, with so much information out there now, and you know, whether it's YouTube or, you know, how to things, it's easy to be a tourist and just kind of jump from thing to thing that you know, oh, that looks interesting. Maybe I'll try learning that. Oh, that looks interesting. Maybe I'll try to learn that. And not really spending the time to really get good at one particular thing or to really explore whether that's the thing for you and the thing that really is a way that you can express yourself with, that can be a dangerous trap in itself, I feel to have art be the way that I make my way through the world. I feel in some way, I guess as I'm thinking about it, what I was gonna say is that if I'm in the mode of like, I'm gonna explore and do all these things, I might be producing artwork that people like. I believe perhaps that's a way to make it happen. And there's also room for, you know, let me make... Let me make a bunch of these sculptures and finish that and then see. You know, is that making sense?

Yeah. I think, yeah, I think I get what you're saying. And it really just comes back to... I might just be reiterating what you just said. Yeah, I think it's just kind of going back over what we were just talking about. Yeah, it's a good one, especially the part about giving oneself permission too I think that's something really important to remember.

I think often we don't give ourselves permission to do things that might feel good to paint or might feel good to guild or it might feel good. All those things might be a good fit. I talk sometimes about the, you know, we're in this world of hustle culture, where some things are just important to do for the sake and process of doing that thing and not trying to turn this into a side hustle or a career or an Instagram feed or whatever. Just being creative for the sake of being creative and having fun with it. That's something our culture has really kind of gone back to. Not even backwards. It's because it's a new phenomenon. It's it's something we're really losing that needs to get corrected But do you think that in this context like we're we're talking about?

Perhaps somebody having art be their life in the way they provide for themselves and it becomes the art has a price tag on it because I have to pay my bills You know, how do you how do you stay out of like pursuing the money?

Well, yeah, there's the practical side. You have to keep a roof over your head and food on the table. But that's with the explorer thing. So for instance, let's say you're pursuing work as a sculptor or a painter or a filmmaker, whatever it is, and maybe that's how you're keeping the lights on. And then some friends call up and say, hey, do you want to start playing some music together? Your primary thing might need to be involved in generating the money, but that doesn't mean that if you decide to put together a little, you know, ensemble of people that are playing music and having fun doing that and all that, that that needs to turn into like a side hustle and all of that. And I think that's a part of our culture that has become unhealthy.

And you even see it in the area of like volunteerism and things. Like there's not a lot of people willing to just do things to better their community or to help their fellow man. They're looking to see what's the return. Like if I go spend this time, what do I get to get out of this instead of just simply looking at what they can give.

What would your words be to somebody who say is, you know, they do have creative genes and they have always wanted to be creative. And right now they're working in nine to five, Monday to Friday, that's like totally draining them, whatever that is. They're like punching a clock somewhere. And for them, that is like draining, but they need to do it. And they really still want to, they like to draw, like, and they've sort of put that on the back burner.

That's a really tough scenario. And, I've known a lot of people struggling with that scenario and it's really tough because if your work or living situation is such that you're just really, really drained by it, then jumping into the arena of being creative and having fun with it and all of that, that's a heavy lift. Yeah, I don't know that I have a direct.

You know, I've been fortunate in that, even though it's been to varying degrees because, you know, a lot of the work that I've done over the years that I've supported myself with has been commercial artwork with sign painting and gold leafing and that kind of thing. I've had the, you know, great situation where I'm getting paid to be creative. And so, yeah, I've never had... of like, you know, I'm working in the bank and I'm under fluorescent lights all day and I come home and I'm beat and I just don't really feel like... I think if that's the case, then a person really has to assess shifting up the paradigm somehow or at least putting something in motion. It might take a period of time, but putting something in motion to get into a situation that's less draining if they really want to pursue creative things.

You know what it reminds me of? That the thing in the, was it in the back of the comic books? The thing that you painted on the front of the counter here. That, you know, do you, do you remember that? Do you - be an artist. Yeah, like do you make, wasn't it, it was also a TV commercial maybe. And it was like the guy who's drawing the face on the stamp.

Oh yeah, you draw the little cartoon and then you turn it in and then they tell you whether you have a future in art or something.

Yeah, and it was like, is this you and the guy's drawing something on an envelope just because he had the envelope or whatever? And then it was like, call this number.

I'm pretty sure that was a scam of some kind. I don't know anything about it, but I'm pretty sure that was probably a scam.

Well, it kind of reminds me of that scenario. It's taking baby steps, even as tired as you are, maybe taking pen to paper or something, to sort of reignite that.

Yeah. Something that you love to do. That's the obvious advice, but I don't know how realistic that is. I think it's more like if you're in a job you hate, you probably want to take a look at switching that up in some form, in some way down the road. Yeah. Because until you get that off your back, you're probably not going to have the motivation to do the thing that you really feel like you really want to do.

Yeah, explore. Do not become attached to one single means of expression. Do not trap yourself.

Thanks for coming everybody. Thank you. See you next time.

Hi everybody, welcome back to The Artist Tao You're here with Jenny and Sean Starr. And today our next principle is honesty is key. Honesty demands strength. It will expose things about yourself that you do not want to see. Cultivate an appetite for honesty. How much time do we have?

Yeah, that one's, the nature of that's completely different than some of the others.

Do you remember how you came about this principle?

I think that one is mostly, I was going through a huge transition in my personal life at the time that I was compiling these and kind of came to the realization that to move forward, I needed to really be honest with myself. I remember, I think I've told you this before, but I had gone to see a counselor and she's asking me these questions and this is all to do with issues in my personal life, which some of it included addiction and other things. She's having me explain these different events in my life and then midway through the one question she had asked me and I'm giving my answer. She stopped me and she says I wanna end the session right now and I want you to do this exercise until the next session. And I said, okay, what is that? And she said, I want you to, as you're driving, as you're going through your day, I want you to think about, whatever you're thinking about, I want you to interrupt yourself and add to that in that moment. “But the truth is…”, and then fill in the blank. And that was the most horrible thing I've ever had anyone do to me because it was like, wow, wow, wow. Like I am so full of crap.

And you know Do you still use that, but the truth is?

Oh, absolutely. You know, once you see that, you can never go back and it's -Yeah, it's always there after you've been exposed to it, because you're like, wait a minute, whatever story I'm running, but the truth is what? And then you're taking inventory and you realize, wow, okay, I'm not being completely honest about this or about my feelings on it or my viewpoint. Yeah, it's a very powerful exercise and I'm sure she unleashed it knowing that.

But yeah, I mean, that's a very personal thing on personal growth, but it's so intertwined with working as an artist because if you're not honest with yourself and with your expression and with your work, you're not gonna get anywhere.

Because why?

Because people can sense when you're full crap, they can tell from a mile away. And if you're not confronting and dealing with that, no one's gonna engage with your work and you're not going to really accomplish anything of meaning. There's plenty of people out there that create all kinds of art forms and it seems to be even more so visible to me in like film and TV and music where there's people creating things that make money and they have success and they've got this team of people behind them, propping them up and you know, they're doing auto tune on their voice or, you know, putting big ads out for them or whatever. There's success there, but like it's, it's disposable. It's like junk food, you know, it's not real substantive art by any means.

I would say honesty is key you know, because it really encourages you to be in your heart too, because you can't really hide when you're being honest.

Yeah, and that's what we all crave. That's what we all want from everyone else around us. We want, you know, we want them warts and all. We want the honesty of understanding who they really are, what their motivations are, what's in their heart. And... I think we've all been on the receiving end where if you've been deceived by anyone, which everyone has, like that's so deflating and so creates so much disillusionment when you realize, oh, wow, this person has basically been lying to me. They haven't been their true self. And that's... as an artist, I think you have to be a real caretaker of that connection you're building with people when they do engage with your work is, you know, there can't be deceit. There can't be. And that's why I think the marketing of art is so, can be really gross is because there's a certain level of like trickery and.

Um, There's a certain level of deception that comes with what we call marketing. It's this whole, the phrase I heard years ago was sell the sizzle, not the steak. All of this stuff, and it's all about basically tricking someone into buying your product and all of these really gross ideas. And then to apply that of all things, to art is just makes it even worse to me. So, you know, I do think that being your, to the best of your ability, your truest self involved with your art is, it's not only the only way, but it's the only thing that seems to make any genuine, meaningful connection with people. Do you think it would make a difference?

Like if, an artist maybe was in a state or a part of their evolutionary process of like maybe not being so honest with themselves, do you think it would affect what they're creating?

Yeah, I do. Like in what way? It's what we talked about with one of the other principles of tapping into your genuine self, being yourself, is if you're not doing that, you're not being honest because that's all you've got is you. And if you're not doing that, then how are you going to connect with someone in a genuine way? It's kind of like if you were in a romantic relationship with somebody and, you know, they kept something huge from you. Like, you know, you hear these crazy stories about this guy with his wife and kids, and then they find out years later he had a different wife and kids in another town.

Yeah, or like three blocks over or something.

Yeah, it's just totally nuts. Like who does that? But then at the same time, it's like, what kind of like anguish does that put into, you know, the people in his life who was like, well, wait a minute. I mean, you got now two families most likely that you know, thought this guy was something else and that they were the only ones. And so when you're talking about like with an artist and then the people that he or she connects with, with their work, it's like, there's a trust relationship there that builds. And if those people find out at some point that, you you've been misleading them by, you know, portraying yourself as something you're not, like that's a devastating thing because to me it's like, at what point, like what's left to trust? I mean, we've already seen in recent decades, I mean, there's not much of our institutions left that you can really have trust in. So if we start losing trust in each other, especially people that are trying to communicate beautiful ideas like, Wow, we're really lost. There's the train again.

Yeah, honesty demands strength.

Definitely demand strength because... We're really good at deceiving ourselves and tricking ourselves and telling ourselves that we're perfectly fine.

Wow, that's a loud one today.

Yeah, they've been like that all day, actually.

But yeah, it takes a lot of strength to look at yourself in the mirror and be honest with what's your motivation? What are you really trying to do here? You know?

Is this money motivated? That to me is like my big... sore spot that I come back to because I've had so many people, including family members over the years, prodding me to essentially monetize the different things that I've been able to experience and participate in with art. And it's like, yes, you do have to support yourself and... keep the thing moving and, you know, sure, everybody hopes that there's comes a time where things get easier because there's more money coming in, you know, for whatever you're doing. But if your motivation is I want to go out and I'm going to like make my mark and make a bunch of money and do all this stuff like that to me is like you're deceiving yourself.

And then you're turning around and deceiving everyone else because you're just looking at them as a way to like, you know, to line your pockets. So the next line is it will expose things about yourself that you do not want to see.

So what do you recommend if let's say somebody is in that position where they are recognizing something about themselves that they wish maybe they had unearthed or, you know, how do you digest that through your artwork, through writing?

I don't know, it's different for everybody, but that's kind of like, I mean, that's the spiritual process. And I do feel art is spiritual, but that's the spiritual process is unearthing those things, confronting them, working through them, improving yourself. I mean, you really only have two choices. You can either confront your demons or you can, you know, live alongside them and act like nothing's happening. There's really no middle ground. So might as well get on with confronting stuff. It took me a lot of years to really apply that. It's like back in 2006, I knew that, but I didn't really confront issues with addiction or issues of what I really believed and thought about the world around me, even though that would create a humongous rift in my family that...

You know, oh, you don't believe things the way we do. You know, we don't want to talk to you. Um, you know, but how do you want to live? Do you want to, do you want to live as your true self and live with honesty? Or do you want to live hiding from that and essentially lying to people, even if you are, you know, even if you're quote unquote, lying to them to kind of protect their feelings and just not rock the boat, it's still lying. So the more I leaned into that, the more I felt I was creating work that was connecting with people and expressing myself more clearly. And that's what it's all about.

Yeah. So did you, is that what I heard you say? So when you were on, during that process of like really unearthing those things, that the work that you were creating was connecting more so with people at that time, do you think?

Or have you noticed that? I don't know, like that's measurable.

I don't know, like, you know, you can't really measure things in numbers when it comes to art. Like, just because, you know, a painting sells for, you know, record $80 million at Sotheby's or something, it doesn't mean it's a great painting that a bunch of people love. So it's more like the one -on -one experiences is... to me how I've measured that is, like when we were going through the process of editing, well, we weren't directly involved with the editing, but when we were involved in the process of adding the supplemental information with Dan and Sarah with the film about Nepal, there's just kind of like this groove and this harmony that develops. And it's all based on honesty. Like, you know, we would sit and we would talk and they would be like, you know, what are your, what are your feelings when we went to this spot and we interviewed this person in Kathmandu? And, you know, that encouragement from them was to be like, just to be fully honest with what I really felt about it. And I was meeting that with my own commitment to.

I'm not going to think about what someone's going to think about me saying this. I'm just going to be as real and honest as I can be. And then you end up with this result that you're like thrilled to have and proud of and they're proud of and everything else because that honesty is, that's the baseline. And you know, I've just seen it over and over throughout the years is, you know, when I'm working from an honest place, I do my best work and people engage with it in a way that's meaningful.

Cultivate an appetite for honesty. Start to like it.

It takes time, but you eventually do. You eventually see that it's the high road and that it's always a better result and it's always more fulfilling and it's always more meaningful. And, you know, it's really interesting to me. Like, I don't think addiction ever goes away. You can just move it into a... a good pursuit or a bad pursuit. And so recognizing that, I've tried to apply like, um, that process, that repeating process with addiction of putting that into things that are healthy and upbuilding. I would rather be addicted to being honest than I would be an addiction of some substance or whatever.

So, you can see it of like people that you see outside of like AA meetings you know, are typically outside chain smoking. It's just like, they just kind of rolled it into that, which I don't know if that's all that great of a substitute, but it just, it doesn't seem to leave people that have that challenge. The addiction part. Yeah. It's just, you know, I mean, I'd rather be addicted to being honest and meditating, which is kind of what I did, um, then alcohol or pills or anything else. It's, um, you know, that's opened my life up and made my life better. So I'll stick with that addiction. Thank you very much.

All right. Honesty is key. Honesty demands strength. It will expose things about yourself that you do not want to see. Cultivate an appetite for honesty.

Thank you. See you next time.

Hi everybody, welcome back to The Artist Tao. You're here with Jenny and Sean Starr. And today we're going to talk about the next principle of The Artist Tao and that is to be innovative. So embrace technology and build an audience. The greatest achievement of any artist is to communicate their ideas clearly. Figure out where you can best be heard.

So what do you think about that?

Well, that's kind of interesting, you know, looking back on writing that originally the first draft in 2006. And that really hasn't changed. You know, all the technology has changed and the ways of communicating have changed and advanced. But the principle to me is the same that, essentially what we're doing right now is getting our ideas and thoughts and creative projects out there in front of people and engaging with people.

Yeah. Well, that last part about figuring out where you can best be heard. I feel like, let's just say, for instance, if you were only a painter, even in this day and age, I think you'd still have to cross all the mediums though. I think you'd have to have shorts and podcasts maybe or something like Instagram, like it has to cross all the.

Yeah, I, you know, it's a fine line because I, I know for myself, I don't like engaging on social media. Um, I do it because it's, it's also tied in with our, our, our business of the work that we do in the studio and things like that. But I'm not, I don't really feel like social media is necessarily a key component of that. As much as...just putting your ideas out there in formats that can expand on what your projects are maybe. So for instance, if you're a painter, engaging people in different ways than just photos of your paintings and just figuring out in an innovative way what that is for you.

Yeah, I think that's where sometimes even like I get stuck in thinking like, oh, it's only going to be on Facebook or you should do Instagram or I'm thinking all these mainstream things and you're thinking about way out of the box, like different ideas of cross promotion or something like that.

Yeah, not even cross promotion. It's just how can you take something to innovate, communicating with people and turn that into its own creative element of what you do. And so that's why, you know, when we were talking about doing this idea of, you know, the book out, the first edition of the book went really widespread and got a lot of popularity. And...The idea of like, well, maybe when we republish this expanding on those ideas through podcasts, to me it was like, okay, that's kind of an extension of the book and an ability to like, um, expound further on these ideas. So that to me is really appealing. Whereas, um, you know, if we were just sitting there posting, you know, Hey, check out our book, check out our book on Facebook and Instagram and all of that. To me, that's, I don't know, it feels kind of gross, but, I mean, everybody's got their own way of how they wanna reach out to people. But to me, I like the idea of... expanding the communication. So in this case, the communication was writing the words of the book and then you took the photos here in the studio to expand visually on those words. And now we're doing this podcast as a way to expand, you know, further ideas about that writing, you know, so to me, it's just like an extension, but at the same time, it's being innovative and using you know, different tools and technologies as a way to engage with people on that core creative work, which was, you know, the artist style book.

Was podcasting even like when you first published the book, was that even something, did you have coffee with a sign painter then or? No, I don't know when that, you know, I jumped in with coffee with a sign painter in, gosh, I think that was 2013, the first episode. And podcasting was just really starting to become widespread enough that people kind of knew how to access it. But I don't really know the history of podcasting enough to know when people started really doing it and all of that. But...

So when you were writing the book and you wrote this principle about being innovative, what were your thoughts at that point about being innovative at that particular moment in time?

I don't know, it seems like it's so long ago. Yeah, well, I mean, technology -wise, it seems like an ancient world. Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, really, publishing the book was the first edition of this book was, part of that idea because I was doing the large scale abstract paintings at that time. And then I had revived my sign painting business and everything else. And the book was kind of a way to, I always enjoyed writing. So it was like, well, I can maybe put this out there and communicate some of those ideas in a different way. So yeah, I guess, you know, social media was, you know, really taking hold around 2006, seven, eight. But, you know, back then it was, you know, MySpace. And then everybody jumped on board to Facebook. But I never, you know, I always had a presence on social media, but I always kind of felt like, like that was just a really low effort way to me of, um, I mean, you can communicate, but how creative can you really be? Now you could share something on there that you've created podcast video, you know, whatever. And that's a whole different thing because, you know, if you put the creative effort into, you know, even a short video, like, then you're just using that mechanism for people to access that.

But, you know, sitting there posting and I don't know, everybody's different. I just never really liked social media and I still don't. But, you know, in today's world, you have to participate in it currently to, you know, have any kind of relevance, which I don't, I question even that. I don't even know if it's really means anything anymore.

Yeah. And this part where you say the greatest achievement of any artist is to communicate their ideas clearly. Yeah. So would that mean even with, even with the, just the expression of their art, whether it's painting or sculpture or something that it be expressed clearly through the piece, or are you saying like more literally to be able to communicate their ideas through different mediums or something like that?

Yeah. I think that I'm really more alluding to like, um, communicating your ideas. I mean, even a hand -painted sign, yes, you're creating some form of advertising and wanting people to engage with it, but your idea of how you do that may be very complex of creating an aesthetic through that painted work. And the same with a painting or written word, anything is...

You go into it with an idea that you're trying to, it's kind of like this esoteric language, I feel. Like you've got this like esoteric language that's running in your own head and you want to communicate and share that with other people. And the more clearly you can do that, then you see this, like there's these moments where you see that other people are picking up on it. And that's when you get really juiced up and you're like, oh, okay, wow. So they're understanding what I'm doing. And then there's other times where it totally falls flat, where totally makes sense to you. You've got this totally dialed in concept and then you put it together and people look at it and they either just go, huh, don't get it. Or they get a completely different impression, which to you is incorrect because that's not what you were trying to communicate.

And so the more clearly you can communicate those ideas, I feel that that's when you really start tapping into, okay, you've refined your message, you've refined your art, and you're really cutting through and people are getting it. Yeah, it's almost like you really are from what you're in your brain, you want to put down on paper or something, you're feeling at that point. That's the art really is to sort of refine it so it's clear at the get -go. Yeah, I think so. And... It's a really difficult thing to do. And there's a lot of other principles that I touch on in the book that I think all those things combined help get you there. But if you're painting paintings or making music or whatever it is that you're doing and no one's getting it, I don't want to say you have to step back because there's artists historically that no one really got them until after the fact. I mean, I think that's the case with Van Gogh from what I've read is, you know, I'm remembering correctly, he didn't sell any paintings, even though his brother was an art dealer, he didn't sell any paintings during his lifetime and everybody kind of thought he was nuts. But I mean, in my mind, it's still, that's the end goal is you're trying to make that connection with people and getting them to understand.

This language that's operating in your head. Is that frustrating for you? If you feel like, is it like an expectation that somebody will understand it? Like, do you get disappointed or do you have to like really step out of not wanting somebody to have a certain type of reaction? Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I, it definitely can be. And what I've learned to do over time that I think is, uh, something I definitely.

Would recommend to people to look at is you have to get into this routine of just moving forward. And you can't really get into the head space of like, wow, that didn't land with people or wow, I don't know if people really got that or, because then you get in this loop of like pair being paralyzed and you're not really creating, you're just so wrapped up in trying to analyze, why didn't people get my idea better? Whereas if you just get in this habit of complete the project and then do what you're going to do to communicate that to people and being innovative using technology to like, okay, this is what I did. And then immediately move on to the next thing. Like just complete it, put it out there, do everything you can do. And it's going to do what it's going to do. It's either going to connect, it's going to connect on a large scale or a small scale. It won't connect at all. And if you don't like just keep running to the next idea and how you're going to express that idea, you could get stuck there for years. And I've met those artists who've, you know, they're still swirling in, project they did 10 years ago and they're just stuck there and it's because they're in their head as opposed to just being like, I'm going to take the information that I got from this one and roll it into the next one and just try to connect on the next one as well.

Is that like a practice, like a muscle?

I think it is because you really have to tame your mind, you know, because you've got all of this feedback coming from all these different sources, especially, I think maybe this is why my distaste, if you will, of social media is because I really feel like social media hijacks the natural process to where, you know, people can get so consumed with Oh, did anyone like it? And how many people viewed my thing and all of this other stuff that you're, you're getting stuck in that loop instead of just moving forward and refining your work and refining your message and improving because you're, you're caught in the loop of like, well, yeah, but what are people thinking and how many people shared it and clicked it and all that stuff. I just think that's really unhealthy and counterproductive. To grow as an artist, not just to like, oh, I made something, what do people think? It's like, you really should be focused on how do I grow and mature as an artist. And the part about figure out where you can be best heard.

Mm -hmm. Like would that be like choose your lane and like do it really well or? No, on that one, it was more about, Um, You've, we've all got these creative people, if they can really unleash themselves, tend to be creative in just about everything they touch, I've noticed. And there are certain things that are just this natural fit that you're just like, bam, you know, it's instinctively just come so easy to a person. And that's where I think a person can be, you know, quote unquote best heard. So, you know, I've met, for instance, virtually every sign painter I know is also a musician. I've known very few that weren't also a musician. They might be just a mediocre musician and a great sign painter or vice versa. And so it's just where you best heard, like, you know.

You might be painting signs to pay the bills every day so that you can go out in the evening and play your music or, you know, maybe you're just fantastic musician and, you know, the sign painting is something you're doing because you really enjoy the process of, you know, expressing yourself with letters. So that, that figure out where you, where you can best be heard is really like speaking to somebody who's a creative and maybe who does painting, sculpture, music, and maybe one of those is a little bit more their lane. One is more, maybe they're just like the most amazing sculptor. And so they should really lean into that is kind of what I'm reading in from that last one. That's what experience has told me. Others might disagree with it, but that's how, that's what I think.

Yeah. Yeah, be innovative. It's, yeah, it's interesting. Cause I, when we were talking a little bit about when the book first came out and the tools that you had available to, you know, put it online or, or I don't even, did you even put it on Facebook or anything?

No, well, I mean, back then everything was being promoted, you know, through social media, like MySpace and all of that. So, you know, we were using those tools to promote it, obviously, in front of your followers, hey, the book's out now, you can go get it at whatever bookstores and stuff like that. But yeah, all of that technology has changed so much. And again, I just have never really liked social media. I've never been social on social media, put it that way.

I've always posted projects and, you know, posted notice, you know, hey, I'm going to be doing this thing, you know, this public thing, come on out kind of stuff. I've used it in that sense, but like the whole concept of like groups and, you know, sharing stuff. And I just, it's never been something I've really wanted to do.

Yeah. Maybe the innovative part is leaning more into, uh, you know, communicating with people one -on -one doing things in small groups like in literal small groups, not Facebook groups.

That's my preference. I don't think it's a bad thing if people want to do that. It's just not something I've really been interested in doing. Well, as the be innovative part of this principle, I mean, for people who maybe have only ever done Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, that might be for them super innovative to start to...

Yeah, yeah. That's a great point is...

You know, if you grew up with social media and you know, you've been very heavily involved in it, then in that case, being innovative could mean, you know, maybe setting up an in -person thing where you can connect with people and, you know, get them to engage with your work in one way or another that's not on a digital platform. In my case, it was, um, what can I create that's shared through a digital platform that could elaborate, if you will, on some of these other projects?

So yeah, that's a good point that you're making is mix it up. Yeah. And it's just interesting to be here in 2024 because I think when you first bought the book out, you were coming from doing in -person events doing things in front of groups of people doing gallery openings. So your crossover was going into a digital space. To participate in a digital way and then people that are coming up in a younger set than I was back then, it may be the opposite. Yeah, it's interesting, right? Yeah. Yeah, so we got to be innovative. Thinking out of the box, I think, too, to run like, thinking about ideas and writing them down because you never know what really will be the best idea. I would say don't sell somebody's idea short.

Yeah, and thoughts are things. They're living, breathing things. And so you can develop that thought into something tangible in the world. I mean, that's what creativity is, is you have this spark of an idea and you're like, maybe if I bolt this, idea into this idea and glue this to it, it'll become this. And then that's the communication part is you've got this concept and then you're wanting to put that out there and share that with people and be like, Hey, what if we looked at this or thought of this in this way?

Yeah. Be innovative, embrace technology and build an audience.

The greatest achievement of any artist is to communicate their ideas clearly. Figure out where you can best be heard.

Thanks for joining us, everybody. Thank you. See you next time.

Transcript of the episode

Welcome everyone to the Artist Tao podcast. You're here with Jenny and Sean Starr. Today we're going to be going over principle number two from the Artist Tao, which is in its new printing, second edition. The second principle is understand your role. Artists are the heart of the community. Although small, this is the part of the community that ignites change. So, understand your role. What does that mean? And can you remember when this one kind of coalesced for you?

Yeah, this one was more based on conversations with other artists. And it's... I don't know if it's looked at enough of, you know, moving the needle, whether it's culture or just ideas or consciousness or whatever you wanna look at, the underlying force seems to always be creativity. When we're stuck in a routine or a status quo, we tend to just kind of regurgitate the same ideas over and over and over. And then someone comes along creatively, whether, you know, define that as an artist, however you will, but someone comes along with an idea and a way of expressing that idea that's different and it can kind of like really shift the paradigm. So that's kind of the idea behind that is understanding the role of what you're doing. Like within the community.

Cause you have understand your role and then it's like artists are the heart of the community. That's the second line. So as an artist, understanding your role within your community.

Yeah. I mean, community in the sense of like the larger community that we're all a part of, which is humanity. Um, you know, there, there, if you look at it like a body, there's all these different functioning parts and they all do different things. I've, I've said for years, you know, the world needs artists and accountants, because like artists can create cool things, but you need an accountant or the artists all go broke. So it's just, yeah, just recognizing that like that, that, that statement of the heart of the community, it is the, you're, you're creating things that can touch the heart that can change the world. And, you know, we hear things like that and they sound a little cheesy and lofty and things, but it is true. I mean, it's historically true that, we've all been the recipients of it. We've all read a book or saw a movie or heard a song or saw a painting and it shifted things for us. It kind of shook us up and got us to think about something differently. It's especially true in the artistic pursuit of writing. Somebody can write out, an idea that maybe you've heard before, but write it in a different way where it touches your heart and it changes you. And so if you can recognize that, I feel, then... you can recognize the importance of what you're doing, which can get you through those periods of time where you get discouraged or you get disillusioned or you feel like, you know, it's what's the point of even doing this is there will come a time when people engage with your work. And when you see that and you experience it, and for those of us who have, it's like a really humbling experience when you see that something that you've created really, affects someone and gets them out of that box and gets them thinking differently. Like you realize how powerful it is and it's humbling because it's larger than you.

And so when, when was there, was there a certain point when you felt that, you know, you, you had a better understanding of what your role is? I think it's always evolving. Um, you know, um. You know, when we went to Nepal to start filming the documentary, I don't think that any of us really understood how that was gonna all play out and how that was gonna really resonate with anyone and affect anything. And once we started doing screenings, it was like, oh wow, this is actually really affecting people. They're very moved. We had people come up to us crying, you know, um, actually, I think I'm understanding something in a different way.

What you just said, cause you're saying understand your role, meaning as an artist, understand your role as an artist in the collective. Like you're saying, like as a, you're part of the heart of the community that you ignite change so that every all artists, that's, that's their role. You're saying, is that what you're saying? Like that's your role as an artist?

Yes, that's exactly what the intention is of the statement is that by putting yourself in a position that you are creating whatever it is that you're doing, that evolves and takes a life on of its own once you've put it out into the world. And that thing, if it's created from a pure place and intention within yourself, that literally can, will, and does change the world.

That's kind of a big, this is a big principle, I feel like. You know, to, if you're, if, I don't know, let's just say somebody's 13 and they're deciding, like, they really like to create all things, art, paintings, sculpture. And that's a big, I feel like this is a big principle to understand that you are, you will affect change in that way, that there's the potential of that igniting fire, that igniting change in somebody or that touching somebody's heart that you may not even ever meet actually.

Yeah. I mean, and there's, there's, you know, there's varying degrees of it, obviously, but like, look at, look at someone like John Lennon with his song, Imagine, how many people did that song shift some kind of paradigm in their head? I picked that one because I think that's, I read on a list years ago, I think that's one of those songs that a lot of people list as one of the top 10 songs that made them think differently or something. I'd have to look it up, but it's something I came across maybe 10, 15 years ago.

But that's a great example of like now granted, when you look at it on the spectrum, he's somebody who had a humongous effect on millions of people and still does, even though he's gone. It's like his music is still affecting change, still touching hearts. And you just, I feel it's important to understand that that's the pool you're stepping into is, you may be the person that affects huge change, you may affect small change, you may only change one person. But that's a very powerful thing to be able to do and meaningful thing to do. Yeah, I mean, that's touching somebody in a way where it opens them up and it touches their heart is really such an intimate thing. And I feel like, When you do understand your role as an artist, in this context, we're saying that as an artist, we understand, one understands their role, that they potentially will touch somebody's heart. I mean, I feel like that's kind of amazing. And for it to come from that pureness of your intention, right? You're not trying to, it's like a difference of like, I'm doing this because I want to touch somebody's heart. It's really, you've got to come from a place of like your own heart to express your own heart. Yeah, and that's for sure because if the intention isn't pure, you're never gonna touch anybody's heart. So, you can't get into this space either where it's like, I'm gonna go change the world, because the world doesn't change that way. The world changes from you reaching down deep and giving a pure expression and not caring whether that changes the world or not. It just, it might, and it might on a large scale and it might on a very small scale. And in my observation, that scale may be different, but if it's a, if it's of pure intention and it's really genuine, it will affect change in someone's life.

Have you had experiences of both sides of the coin, understanding where that inspiration comes from inside of you, where it's genuine, like God speaking through you, as opposed to the other side of the coin of where you've been like, I'm going to do this and this is going to be the thing that changes something. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I think everybody knows whether they're willing to admit it or not something different, but everybody knows when it's that just you're in the zone and it's just a pure thing and you just like you, you are loving whatever you're working on and you just really want to bring it into the world versus the minute you start scheming and thinking, well, if I make this change, that's a little bit more of a popular thing and people are gonna respond to it this way. The minute that you start in with that, then you might as well just toss it in the trash and start over.

It's kind of interesting, like coming off the first principle about not being defined by stereotypes. So it's kind of like the same, not the same, but it's adding onto that, right? So you understand your role, but you still can't just be falling into line with what society wants you just what's trending or something like that.

It's a big complicated mess. You've got all of these things and that's why I called them the 44 principles is these are all just kind of floating out there and they year after year appear to be true to me. But yeah, you've got to juggle all this stuff because...

Some of it might even seem counterintuitive, but it's still true. So how does meditation come into play? Do you feel like before meditation there was sort of one way of being and then when you started meditating that might have helped you ground yourself more in what your role is and understanding that?

I don't know. I don't know that I want to get too much into that because that's kind of a really personal thing to each person. I can give you my experience with it. That was major game changer for me as an artist was it's allowed me to get much more real with myself and much more in tune with the work that I do. But I mean, everyone's going to have their own techniques of how they get there, I suppose. I don't want to get too much into that.

Well, I'm just asking about like, was there a definite like difference did you find between pre -meditation and post -meditation.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Yeah, artists are the heart of community.

You think because most, because as an artist, you think out of the box as the heart of the community, or do you feel like the more tapped in you are to your creativity, perhaps you're maybe have maybe more sensitive?

I don't know about that because, um, you know, over the years I've crossed paths with so many, you know, different people doing different things and have different temperaments. The temperament of a musician is, in my observation, has been very different than a painter or a sculptor or a writer. Everyone's kind of got their own engine running in the background.

And I... I mean, more like, are you better able to, you think, perceive as somebody who's super creative, in my opinion, like, do you feel that you can perceive things maybe? In a way, maybe that's somebody that doesn't necessarily utilize creative energy the same way you do.

Don't know. It's that the whole nurture versus nature thing, I think, of like, how do you separate it? Does a person have certain traits because they've pursued creativity or do they have certain traits because that's how they're wired and so they were drawn to be creative? I don't really know.

It seems to be that people that are on the creative path are much more interested in exploring things about themselves and how they express themselves than other people, but that only may be observable because they're creating things and so you look at them through a different lens.

Yeah, so I would think as the heart of the community, I guess I'm thinking on a smaller scale, like even in our community, you know, like being the, like as somebody who invokes change just even on a community level, like where everybody lives, you know, where you live in your actual community, not necessarily like humanity community.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, we've got what? 980 some people here. And there's people here doing different things. There's people running the coffee shop here in town. There's people on the ranches and farms around us. They're doing that. Like everybody, and again, on the surface, it might sound a little cheesy. You're the heart of the community, but it's more literal.

Like if you look at it more like a body of there's all of these people in your community contributing something and what you're contributing as an artist, again, if it comes from that pure place can ignite change. And again, that might only be one person. A couple of years ago, there was that artist, Kathy, that was teaching kids how to paint next door. And she brought in the one kid that day, he's like 10 years old or something. And he's just looking around with his eyes huge and everything. And to us, it was just like, oh cool, yeah, come on in and we'll show them around and everything. But to that kid, you don't know what that's gonna mean down the road. I've had those experiences, I think I shared with you, when I was, in my early twenties and I had moved from Texas up to Seattle. I'm downtown Seattle and I'm watching Dale Chihuly, the glass guy, glass artist, and he's got his little studio downtown Seattle and he's got paint all splattered over him and he's spraying these glass panels with this colored dye or ink or something. I just stood there, just dumbfounded. I'd come from South Texas and everything I knew about like quote unquote real artists was books and movies. Like I'd never met or seen one in my entire life. And there's this guy with an eye patch making this fantastic glasswork and I'm able to stand there in a studio and watch him work. And that, that changed so much for me because it, it then was like brought into the realm of possibility that, Oh, this could be done. I could pursue this and make this my life and my livelihood somehow.

So that's, is that kind of when you felt like really that you could do that? When you saw Dale out there doing his thing in Seattle?

I think it's, you know, all these things compound. I don't think it's a single moment where it's like, aha, you know, but it definitely was a milestone of like, just kind of stopped me in my tracks of like, okay.

So I did my art show a couple years prior in San Antonio in this little coffee shop and was dabbling in all of that, like, well, maybe I could do this thing. But then seeing him, and I had never heard of him before that. And then you're hearing comments around you of people standing who are watching and they're like, oh, wow, that's Dale Chihuly. And you're like.

So, okay, so this guy, he's a known entity. He's doing this fantastic work. He's downtown. He's opened up his studio so that people can come in and watch him work. Like it just, a lot of things fell in place of like, okay, that's possible. You know, I already knew it was possible, you know, from working in my dad's shop that like, you could pay the rent and the electric bill and buy groceries by putting paint in the trunk of the car and driving out to West Texas and custom painting, you know, some rich guy's suburban. Like I was like, okay, you can do that, but I don't know if you could like make paintings or do something else. I don't know how that could get done. And then I saw him and was like, okay, it's definitely possible. I still no clue how to turn that into a way of supporting myself, but I knew it was possible.

And this might be a, not related to the glass, but was, when you were in Seattle, was that the first time that you were doing those large scale abstract paintings or were you doing that in Texas too?

No, I started that up in Seattle. And then when I moved back to Texas, continued and then it wasn't until 2005, that that's when I did a project at the University of Washington in Tacoma and painted a huge, huge 24 foot long abstract painting to the music of the Smiths and Morrissey. And again, it was probably influenced by Chihuly because that whole concept came about of like, I want people to come in and be able to watch me work.

And I'm sure that's where that came from. And so, you know, during that whole time, that whole week of painting, you know, people were able to come in and they could sit down and they'd watch and I'd sit there painting the Morrissey and the Smiths. And, you know, that all made sense to me. I don't know how much sense it made to anyone else, but I was having the time of my life. But that was the first time I really had stepped into I want to see what I can do with this and I want to kind of take this out into the world and let people engage with it and see what happens.

Yeah. Yeah. I love those big pieces. I think they're great. Thanks. Do you prefer like if you were going to paint a ball, I know that you just did the Buddha painting not too long ago. Do you prefer the larger scale?

Yeah, I seem to. And, um, it's a real pain in the neck because then you've got these huge paintings to contend with. And, you know, whether you're having to transport them to show them or you're like keeping them as inventory or whatever, you've got these huge things to deal with, but I do like the size of it. And I think that's, um, translated, you know, even into, you know, some of the sign painting installation stuff I've done like those projects I did for the Dallas farmers market, you know, those are eight foot by 24 foot each, you know, two of those. And, you know, I just love that big scale. Like it's, you know, years ago I saw, I was on a trip up to Cleveland, I believe it was, and I was in a museum and I saw one, I don't remember if it was one or if they had several, but it was, Monet's water lilies. Oh yeah. Those are huge.

Really?

Yeah.

Gosh, I don't remember them being so big, but. Well, that's the way I remember it. Now you're making me question. I might have to look it up. But from what I remember, they were huge. And I just remembered it like my jaw dropping. But I could be mixing it up with something else. Now I got to fact check myself.

No, I doubt it. You're probably right. You're probably right. Yeah. Yeah, I like the large scale. I like the large scale paintings that you do.

Yeah, and I think it also, you know, when I was younger, I was really charged up by Jackson Pollock, you know, and a couple of years ago when we were up in New York, we went by, he showed me where his studio was, which was like a little mini mecha trip for me. But, you know, the scale of what he did was just like really great to me too, of just like, wow, like covering a whole wall.

Yeah, we should try to get that was, I guess, during the winter. I don't think they were open, but we should try to get there in the summertime or something when it's open so you can see the workshop. You know, it's pretty cool.

Yeah.

Well, that is principle number two. Principle number two. Understand your role. Yeah. So thank you everybody for coming to see us again. See you next week. See you next time.

Transcript of the episode:

Hi everyone, welcome to The Artist Tao. Today's our introductory podcast to the book by Sean Starr called The Artist Tao. So first question, Sean, is when did you write the first edition for The Artist Tao? Because I know you just published a second edition. When was the first edition, when did that come out?

I started writing it in 2006 and it ended up getting published in I think it was the spring of 2008. And that all came about from different gallery exhibitions I was doing at the time, and the artists I was coming across and then other artists that I'd worked with for years on other types of projects. And just kind of trying to distill down a handful of ideas on things that... It seemed to be things that resonated not only with myself, but with other artists on kind of little guidelines, if you will, of what it's like to pursue the path of working as an artist and trying to support yourself as an artist.

So that was my next question. So what inspired you to write the book? Was it because you were doing the art galleries and the different artists, you noticed a common thread and thought you'd put them all together?

Yeah, you know, as others that I've crossed paths with over the decades, you know, can attest, I kind of had this thing in my mind of like what I, you know, from when I was really young, like, you know, I want to get into galleries and I want to be part of the art world and, and frankly, got a little disillusioned pretty rapidly after doing a show in Manhattan. I was doing shows all up and down the West Coast. And I just kind of reached this point where I was like doing some introspection on like what is it really mean to be an artist versus what we're told it's supposed to be? And is it practical to support yourself? If so. what game do you have to play in this art world, which I kind of figured out quickly was not a game I wanted to play. So then it's like, well then what's my alternatives? And how do you pursue all that without losing yourself?

Well, could we go back a little bit further? You painted, there's a landscape photo in here or a landscape that you painted. I think you said you were about 10 when you painted that. It's in the paint room. And do you remember painting that?

I don't remember painting it, but I remember that period of time, you know, I was doing what you know, a lot of people do like, you know, I was probably watching a Bob Ross kind of show back then and was dabbling and trying to figure it all out. And I remember, I don't remember painting that one, but I remember giving it to my grandparents. And then my aunt ended up sending it to us, you know, a couple of years back, which was kind of surreal to see and know that it still existed.

And so when you were around that age, did you always paint? Or did you sort of stop for a little while and then pick it up again and you're like 18 and 19? Or how did that work?

I don't know, it's just something I always was interested in doing. I went through quite a few years when I was a kid painting birds. I've always loved birds. So I did a long stretch of doing that. Then when I became a teenager, I started working in my dad's shop, which was doing custom paint and the early iteration of what I ended up doing with sign painting and that kind of work. So I was always around stuff and had the desire to create art. But, you know, again... Once you get yourself out there and you're really trying to sort out, like, how do I inhabit this space of being an artist? Like, you really have to break it all down and define what that means to you and what that looks like, how do you keep your integrity, all that stuff.

And what was the first, what came first? Was it the show in San Antonio when you were late teens, early 20s, or was it the birth of your son? What came first or was it simultaneous?

He had just been born at that point. So yeah, I was a young dad. I was probably 20 or 21 when I did that show.

And that was in San Antonio?

That was in San Antonio. It ended up becoming an iconic coffee shop downtown later. And it's now gone. hip spot in town. And I, you know, went in completely blind, not knowing how to approach anything or what to do. And, you know, ended up showing the owner some slides of my work and got a one-man show, which I didn't even know what that meant at the time. But that, you know, in retrospect, that was kind of a great way to start off. But again, having no clue what I was doing or... what I really wanted to do with that. I was just excited to do it.

And was that the same time when you really decided like, okay, this is it, I want to be an artist, like I want to create as my way of life.

It wasn't really like that. I had already, by that point, had been working with my father and his shop and I really didn't see any other options available to me. So I just grew up in a working class household and was surrounded by art, but wasn't really... I definitely didn't go the conventional path of like going to art school and doing all this other stuff. I was working full-time when I was a young teenager. So it was more just, I really wanna do this creative stuff and then how do I make that part of... like what I do for a living, which took many years to figure that out. But that's.

So do you think this, the first principle that you have here in the Artist’s Tao, it, it reads define yourself, define your life as an artist, as you see fit, not by society's definitions of what an artist is, do not allow anyone to confine you with a stereotype. So do you feel like, you know, after that first show, did you sort of define yourself or were you thinking in your head like, oh, an artist does this or that? Or were you sort of open to like sort of what was sort of unfolding at that time?

No, and you know, it's not an accident that I put that as the first one in the book because to me, it's such an important lesson and it was a hard lesson for me to learn when I was younger. I think I bought into the whole Hollywood type stereotype of like what an artist is supposed to be like, you know, tortured and you know, you know, I already had developed, you know, an addiction issue and I kind of viewed that as like an endorsement that I was on the right track and you know, yeah. So I think it's just really, really like probably the most important thing from... out the gate of someone who's moving in a direction towards creating a life where art is at the center of it, is just understanding who you are, what your values are, and not letting someone or something else define that for you. Because in my case, it probably prolonged getting to the point where I actually did confront my addictions and overcome them and those kinds of things. So I think it's just really important to just be completely real about who you are and not get wrapped up in this is what society has said an artist is. Because frankly, the whole thing has been hijacked in the last 100 years, art, artisans, craftsmanship, you know, all of this stuff was kind of all the same mix. And once this whole gallery system that then got hijacked by the collecting world and the people investing in art for, you know, collecting and all of that, once that really kicked in, you know, it was, it became this very rigid thing of what an artist is in society. And I mean, In my opinion, if you're working creatively and you're expressing yourself and you're putting things out into the world, you are an artist. You get to define that, not some other institution.

Do you feel what I was hearing you say before, I don't want to assume, were you feeling that you were kind of being defined by... you know, whatever your circumstance was, instead of you just sort of defining yourself until you got to a point where, like you said, you confronted your addiction and was able to like rise above that. Do you feel like you were sort of allowing yourself to be defined?

Yeah, I do. But it's also, it's hard to separate yourself, you know. Art is something you do. And then, you know, whether you're doing that or not, you may have... addiction issues or you may have issues with depression and anxiety and these other things, which are all things that I struggled with for years. It's hard to know where the line starts and stops as far as how much of this is involved in the fact that this is the work I want to create and how much of this is just I've got baggage to clear out and deal with. An additional voice in the mix of... this is what society thinks I should be doing and how I should behave in this role, I think is the problem. And that's the whole point of that first principle to me is like right out of the bat, get this part figured out, or at least spend time on it. You might not figure it out right away, but at least spend time on like, are you defining who you are and what your work is and what it means and where that... fits in with the bigger picture or is someone else involved in that? Because they can't be.

So, what is an artist?

Well, that you probably get a hundred different answers asking a hundred different people. But I would say in my definition, which I cover later in the book and it's tied in with a much larger project we've been working on for years now is, you know, I think art is an expression of love. I think that when we spend all of the time and passion of learning how to express ourselves and we put that together in some form, whether it's a painting or music or film or you name it, and then we're sharing that with other people, like in its purest form, that art is love. And so to me... When you ask what is an artist, I think my only answer would be is someone who is creating something with the intention of sharing it with other people from a place of love. If you're creating something for money, for fame, for whatever, you lose that. And, you know, that's typically, you know, we all know it when we see it. You know, we see and hear music or, you know. any other form of artistic expression. And that's why some people get called sellouts, is because it's like you can just tell that they're just trying to make a hit or something.

Yeah. So do you recall your gallery showing in Manhattan? And what was that like for you? It's just making me think of that time and maybe a couple of things that you said, that was such an interesting time for you. how, when you're saying, what is an artist like, and you did those gallery shows that you thought would be this great thing, and then you got there.

Yeah, that was 2006 or 2007 was the New York show. And that was, I mean, it wasn't a negative experience and the people I dealt with were very supportive. So it was more stuff that was going on inside of me. I don't know. I had been offered that show when I was in my 20s and turned it down. Then ended up contacting that same gallery back when I was in my 30s and ended up being offered a show again after resubmitting my work. I don't know. I just kind of had built up frankly a fantasy I think of what... what all that would be and what my role in that would be. And when I got there, I just, that was a little bit of a turning point for me of realizing like, if I want to build something that I'm happy with and proud of, then this isn't the way for me.

Do you think that was like really the time that you defined yourself in your way? Not as a stereotypical artist, but in the way that you really desired to like come into your own?

Yeah, that was a big, big change for me, which set me on a path of kind of creating something completely... my own as opposed to, you know, oh, well, there's this gallery system and you do paintings and you submit them and you, you know, show up at this cocktail party and meet collectors and then you do this and then, you know, like all of that's laid out for you. And I wasn't really comfortable with that. It's not something I really wanted to do. And then that's when I came back and I was living in San Francisco at the time. And that's when I came back and was like, I don't really know what it looks like, but I want to create a studio that kind of just is a catch-all of all the things that I am passionate about creating. That's when I really dove in and returned to sign painting, gold leafing, making music, in addition to the original paintings. Everything was just like, okay, I'm going to do the things that I want to do and do it my own way and turn that into some way of supporting myself.

Yeah, that's awesome. I really, I love the cowboy Buddha. I call him the cowboy Buddha, but I know you call it something else, the Buddha with the agave.

Yeah, that, you know, when we had gotten back from Nepal and shooting the documentary out there, you know, I was really pretty charged up from... meeting with the Thangka painters and everything. Kind of love the idea of mixing the Texas aspect of the agave and the prickly pear cactus with the Buddha. The concept of the Buddha is everywhere. We seem to associate it with Tibet and India and Nepal, but I liked the idea of bringing him home, so to speak.

Yeah. Yeah, I love it.

Thanks.

So what do you think your, what would you like everybody to maybe take away from our first podcast for the Artist’s Tao and for that first principle, what would be the, I know it's define yourself, but do you want to expand on that a little bit more?

Yeah, I, you know, I just. I mean, I can only speak from my perspective of what has like worked for me and helped me and, you know, these are all based on not only my own realizations, if you will, but also conversations with other artists. And they seem to be pretty universal. I think most artists that have like stuck it out and turned into something would probably agree. with most of these in here is, yeah, it's... If you don't define yourself, and it isn't even defining yourself, it's not like you're sitting down and saying, this is what I'm going to be. It's more identifying who you are. If you don't do that, somebody else will. The art world especially, especially if you get any traction, they will rush to do that. And I saw that forming and realized I will never be happy that way.

Excuse me. When did you see that? Did you feel like you were being sort of pigeonholed into something or like when was that?

Not really pigeonholed. It was more there's a mechanism in place and in how this all operates. And unfortunately, and even more so now than it was in 2006 money is at the center of that mechanism. And so there's this machinery that's there to take a person, define them, market them with the end goal of the art machine making the bulk of the money. And, you know, it's a tiny sliver of percentage of artists that actually really start selling work on any level. Artists are getting very little compensation because of that machinery. And it was apparent to me that even if I continued to have the doors open and success that was being presented to me, that it would still be a long, long road before I could make it, the money I needed to support myself, but also that would come with a lot of compromises that I was not probably willing to make.

When do you think that was that you pulled that together? Really that locked in? Was that 06 with the gallery?

06 and 07 and then in 08 is when I really dove back into sign painting, which was my trade background, approaching it in an entirely different way. You know, instead of this is my trade, it was how can I create and express art through this trade and build it into something different that's, you know, something I want to do every day. And Fortunately, that all worked out really well.

Yes. Do you have, like when you say not by society's definitions, like is there a specific thing or is it mostly like an artist as a commodity, like as a way like you were saying before, there's a price on your artwork and that's how you're being defined?

Yeah. I mean, there's the practicality issue. If you're going to make any form of art, you also have to generate an income. That's the world we live in. That's not a bad thing. I don't feel like that's compromising in any way when a person does that. I mean, it's a necessity. If you can't pay the rent and support yourself, you can't continue to do what you're doing. You have to go work somewhere else and do something else. So, yeah, you used a good word. I mean, it's commodity. There's a certain... aspect that I observed in the gallery world of herding in all the cattle of artists and them just knowing that by percentages, one out of however many might get some traction and they'll make some money off of it. And very little time being spent on getting to know the artists, getting to... like really understand, okay, what are you doing? What's your motivation? Why are you creating these things? That kind of thing. It was just more like, you know, if we slap up enough things enough times, some of these are going to sell and we'll put more energy behind what sells.

Would you say that Andy Warhol was somebody that he defined himself, like he kind of put his whole thing together almost like, you know, he was putting himself out there as this is the kind he defined himself, right? He didn't have society define him, right?

Yeah, I'm certainly no expert on him. But from what I do know about him, it appears that way. It appears that he kind of took that route as well. I mean, you know, most of his paintings were silk-screened prints, you know. So it's like, and he was involved in film and doing all sorts of things. So yeah, he's probably a really good example to look at of someone who really you know, achieved a broad range of things. No one had ever approached it that way before.

Right.

And so he was able to create something completely new. Whereas if you're looking at like the impressionists or you then look at some guy like Picasso or whatever, and you're trying to model yourself after that, modeling yourself after anyone is a mistake because they're... the strengths that you have is there's only one you. There's only one unique vision that's in your head. And so if you're just mimicking what Jackson Pollock did or any of these guys, you're missing the whole point because the great contribution that you have is the vision that's coming out of your eyes into the world.

But would you say though that as an artist, like you... there's a part of you that needs to have a business sense. I feel like there has to be, if you're gonna be your own, if you're gonna put yourself out there and sort of pave your way, I feel like one must have, be able to understand the mechanics of the business part.

Yeah, and that's tricky too. I mean, I'm not a business person. I have developed some, you know, ways of doing things that have... um created a successful business for the studio but i'm not a business person i don't have that background i don't have uh you know the knowledge to really know how to put all that together and i don't really want to honestly I you know I know enough to keep the lights on and uh you know keep things going but i don't really i'm saying that for the you know the residents of rainbow valley of which I...

You're the mayor.

I'm the mayor of. But like, you know, if I were somebody that's like, oh, you know, I do this great kind of art and this is the art I do and like everything's going to be fine. Okay, there's a certain truth to that. And I'm also going to need to know how to balance my checkbook. You know what I'm saying?

Well, yeah. And that's covered in upcoming episodes because we'll be going over that. That is touched on multiple times in the book of... Yeah. You do have to balance... the practical stuff with, you know, I just want to, you know, hang out and paint my paintings or make my music or whatever, you do have to balance it and find a way to support yourself. I mean, and that supporting yourself may be working like down at the coffee shop during the day and at night you're doing your thing and that, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. I just happened to have had a really great... situation of growing up, you know, working in my dad's, you know, graphics shop and everything where I got to see, okay, this is how you can make money doing something like this. And then I was able to apply it later.

Yeah. And also I've said this to you before too, when you were working at the place in Seattle, was that, that was a sign shop too? And you were in the graphics

We live in a tiny town and there's a train right behind our building that comes to me. So that's what you're hearing. I really feel like from what you've told me anyway, that what I take away from that was like you really use that to your advantage, you know, by, you know, doing all the things that the guy was asking you to do as far as like going to the color theory class or like doing all those things that you had opportunity to do sort of seize the moment I think in those years to really sort of. I don't know, ground yourself in.

Yeah, I mean, in that era, I was like, you know, I came into that specific job with zero computer knowledge and had only done completely hand rendered work in my dad's shop up till that point. And you know, instead of shying away from it, I, you know, I did see... opportunity that like this might come in really handy someday and it and it has. I mean just even understanding how to do basic stuff on a computer for the operation of a business is really a valuable thing to know and yeah so I again it's the defining yourself it if your definition that you've adopted from other people is that you know I'm only going to do everything by hand, I'm not touching a computer, that's okay if that's your definition, but if you're coming to that from some other place, that's been imposed on you in some way of your perception of what an artist is, then that can work against you. Because to me, I want access to as many tools as I can have, whether it's a paintbrush or a computer to. edit down a video for a podcast or whatever it is. I want all the tools to do all the things I want to do. For me, that's my definition.

Do not allow anyone to confine you with a stereotype.

So we'll see you next week.

See you next week. Thanks for coming by.