At heart

I've been thinking today: people are at heart good. Yes, I know there are all sorts of counter points to that statement, but here's the thing.

First, look at the ridiculously huge human population on the planet, and then consider the fact that we haven't yet, in fact, destroyed everything down to the sphere at the center of the Earth.

Second, look at the people who cause issues for other human beings. On the face of it, perhaps some of them could seem like assholes through and through, but then take another step back. Consider the context of that person's life. Genetics and environment and experience go a long way toward shaping an individual and who they become later. There are arguments that could be made on all sorts of sides about how much is a person's free will and specific choice and how much is it something they couldn't actually help.

That isn't something I can debate on either side because I don't have enough information, but the point is that even if someone's an Asshole With A Capital A, even if what they're doing isn't fair to others, maybe at least there's an understandable reason for why their life has taken the path where they are being a jerk at this point in time. In short, they weren't necessarily born evil.

Third, consider the number of people who want to connect with others, to help others. The people who volunteer their time or money or energy to others, to complete strangers, maybe in their city or with a connection that is personally meaningful somehow, like being of the same descent or religion or sexual orientation. But this same spirit can be found in people donating something they worked hard to obtain or that is meaningful to them, to people who might be across the entire world, who they'll never meet, they'll never know personally, and yet they wish to help them on a level that will be very personally meaningful to the receiver.

Fourth, consider yourself. I'm fairly certain that if you're reading this post and you had the wherewithal and ability to click all the links needed to get here, then you are quite probably a human being. And I bet you are good at heart as well. And being so, you are a member of the human race, and thus you are part of the whole. Aggregate enough good hearts together and you can quickly gain a minority that I believe is actually the majority.

I saw a sign the other day that put a spin on that ages old concept of whether the glass is half full/empty. It said, "Don't worry about whether the glass is half full or half empty. Instead, go looking for someone who is thirsty." I liked that. I also like the answer I give people now: technically, the glass is always full since the other half is filled with air.

I was watching documentaries today on a variety of topics but one of them was about a man who decided to live entirely off the goodwill of others on Craigslist for a month.

And it got me thinking at the end of it how, you know what? Yeah. If some dude tried to suddenly crash at my place or wanted me to drive him somewhere, my first worry would be personal safety. Because I'm not big and probably any dude could overpower me with enough motivation. But if we were to assume I trusted him for some reason, or at least believed him, then my next thought would be: how can I help you?

If I learned he didn't have food, I'd want to give him food. If I felt safe with him over, I'd let him sleep the night on the couch. If I had someone else with me, I'd let him bum a ride. I suppose the presence of a cameraman helped those people make the decision, or perhaps it didn't. I'm not them so I can't say.

But it did get me thinking about my limited experience in traveling. I remembered when I got deathly ill unexpectedly the first day in Fiji, and my group dropped me off at a woman's house who they knew somehow. And that woman, bless her soul, let me lay on her couch all day, didn't mind at all that I kept throwing up in her bathroom, and even went out of her way to make me food that would help me feel better. Amusingly, we later learned she knew my favorite professor from college back in the States. Small world.

Then I thought about how rewarding it was when I ventured on my own in Switzerland. I didn't know any of the official languages but I could muddle through it well enough through other languages I knew, and I got on trains and explored cities on my own.

The time that came to mind was on the train ride to Basel. At one point after we had left one stop and as we were on our way to another, I found a wallet in the bathroom. It was sitting on the back of the toilet like someone had set it down and forgotten or it had fallen out of a pocket. I opened it up and found money, an ID, cards, you name it. But it was all in German and I didn't know how to get it back to the person.

I worried about it for a bit before deciding perhaps the person would realize they'd lost it and be right back. My seat was right next to the bathroom door so I watched it like a hawk for maybe three minutes before I couldn't handle it anymore. I was too worried that someone else would find it and steal that poor person's money, so I went back in and grabbed the wallet.

But then I had a problem. I didn't think you could call 911 in Switzerland the way you could in the US. And if I did, I'd have to rely on people knowing English. So I thought it might be better to give it to a lost and found somewhere, but how did that work in a cross-country setting like a train?

So I sat there worrying about this, clutching the wallet in my hand to protect it, and looked at the few other passengers. There were two women sitting nearby who were chatting away, and a few other people halfway across the way. In a lull in the women's conversation, I leaned over and asked in my awkward German whether either of them spoke English. I still remember the startled looks they gave me, but thankfully one of the women did.

So I explained to her the issue, and my dilemma, and I asked her how I could get the wallet somewhere safe for the woman who owned it. I remember she gave me such a baffled look at first. Maybe not baffled-- maybe just surprised. It was probably pretty damn obvious I'm American based on my accent and my inability to speak the local language. I'm not sure what impression the Swiss might have of Americans. We don't exactly have a stellar reputation around the world. I got the impression she was a bit surprised I was so intent on safeguarding this wallet and hadn't taken anything from it.

She had me show her where I'd found it, and I told her how there were things in it and that made me worried, and she said there was a lost and found at the station. She seemed like she was going to try to explain to me how to do this and then she shook her head and said, "It's okay. I will do it."

I thanked her profusely and perched on my seat like a jumpy little owl, my head swiveling at every noise as if I expected the owner to go to that bathroom and walk back out with a crestfallen look. And then I could give it to her directly without her having to worry.

The woman who had been conversing with my English speaking woman asked her something in German. I didn't need to know the language to know it was, "What the hell was that all about?" followed by an explanation. But I was really glad when our stop came and my English speaking woman and her companion got very determined faces and made a beeline for the help desk.

Of course, I never knew what happened. For all I know, that woman never got her wallet back. But I really hope she did. And I really hope she didn't have to worry too long until she was contacted. Maybe she was spared that and didn't even realize it was missing until she was told it was recovered fully intact.

But that's the thing. It's not like I did that because I figured a year from then I'd feel like randomly telling a story, or even because I found comfort in it. It was quite stressful, and I pushed myself out of my comfort zone interrupting those women asking them if they spoke English. I felt like an ass having to ask that; like I was just some lazy person who never bothered learning other languages. When instead, I've taken classes on at least 7 languages (although I'm definitely not fluent in any of them). Just. Nothing that helped me converse in Switzerland.

If it had been Spanish, I would have been fine. (Actually that's something else that was funny, when I was translating French museum notes into English in my mind and then into Spanish for a Spanish couple I met at the Roman ruins at the end of that train ride)

Anyway, the point is I was in a country where I didn't even understand the language and couldn't converse with people, and I found some complete stranger's wallet, which I made sure got into the right hands to get it to safety so she could recover it. And I'm just some person, right? So there are tons of other humans like me who are probably even more conscientious.

Which means the human race is filled with people who, when it comes right down to it, will react to a sense of community in a positive way by trying to help others in need. Often, for little to nothing in return other than satisfaction, adventure or peace of mind.

It's something that I really appreciate about humans. When we don't get distracted by unfairly judging our differences, we can be a kind and caring species who can recognize that a stranger could very well be a friend we just haven't met yet.
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Published on September 19, 2013 21:25
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message 1: by Ale (new)

Ale You reminded me of Carl Sagan a lot.

He used to talk about how we should move past geographical constraints like cities, countries, continents, and focus on being a global community. We're citizens of Earth, citizens of the Universe. And we should act like it.

I am a bit of a cynic. I often say I hate humanity and that I wish something horrible would happen to all the wrong-doers. But then, when horrible things like the Japan or Chile earthquakes happens, or school shootings, or anything else like that, I always end up crying and trying to find how I can help. Because I can't bear human suffering, because I believe what many Eastern cultures believe: we are all connected, we are one huge entity split into millions and millions of individuals.

Take this week. I can count four news stories about people being decent to one another. One was a homeless man who returned a bag with several thousands of dollars that he found laying around somewhere - he didn't take a penny in spite of being homeless for over five years. And then someone started an online fund raiser to help that homeless man and they got him a ridiculously large amount of money in less than 24 hours.
Another one was a marathon runner poised to win the first prize. But she stopped to help another runner with no hands take a drink of water - it cost her the first place and I think a $10K prize.

And so on and so forth.

I've found myself on the receiving end of random acts of kindness several times. Once it landed me backstage after a Sonata Arctica concert and I got to meet the band. It was a couple of weeks after that Easter-earthquake that hit Southern California a few years ago and I was a bit of a mess because things on our side of the border were still god-awful. The concert was the only thing getting me through some of the rougher spots. I don't know if Loana, the woman who got me backstage, saw some of that in my face or if it was because I was alone while most everyone else was accompanied by someone, but she came over and started talking to me out of the blue. Somehow I started talking about the earthquake and she started talking in Spanish and next thing I knew I had a backstage pass. I tried to tell her how much it meant to me but I'm not sure I had the words to make her understand exactly how grateful I was. Because it wasn't just about meeting one of my favourite bands, it was about having something positive amongst all the negative of those days.

And I've always done my best to help out whenever I can, whether or not I get to talk about it with someone else, whether or not someone is there to see. Because it's the right thing to do - just like you and the wallet, Ais. Just like the homeless man and the marathon runner. Just like countless others who do small or big things for others because.

The phrase Faith In Humanity: Restored comes to mind more and more often lately. And, cynical as I am, I want to keep on being able to say that and mean it. And I want to be able to come to a point where I won't have to be reminded by random acts of random people that we are basically a good, caring collective.


message 2: by Ais (new)

Ais Those are awesome stories!

I am, at times, cynical as well. I see a lot of the awful things people do to each other and it can get wearing. It can be harder to feel compassion for every single life and all the ripples that one event sends into their future. I don't think I've ever gotten to actually hating humanity but I've found it harder, at times, to see the forest for the trees.

But you make a perfect example when you mentioned the news. I honestly think that is one large issue. The media, well at least American media-- I'm not sure if they're better about it in Mexico-- the American media is built for bloodsucking. It thrives on drama, violence, pain, and scandal. If there's blood, if there's a broken child, if there's rape or assault, if there's something awful that happened and they can make it salacious, then it's all over the news. If it's superficial and catty, it's all over the screen.

Now, I don't want to sound like I'm saying people who work in American media are soulless. I'm not. I'm saying the industry has become far too driven by money and not enough by content or even balance. I know many stories that were heartwarming that never made it to the news because they don't care. It's not interesting enough for them if someone didn't get fired or someone didn't get hurt or guns weren't involved or children didn't die. Or if they do care and do want to report on it, the industry is built in such a way that they eventually are forced out of being able to do so.

The point of that is this: we can really only judge the world on what we see. Back in the day, we saw our immediate city or town, maybe we were able to travel further out into our countries or even past the borders. But we experienced everything firsthand, and we had limited mobility.

Now, the entire world is a fishbowl on display. The internet and global media have done a great thing in bringing everyone in touch with each other, but the problem is that now the media's representation is even more important. Because we don't firsthand see what's happening across the globe, but we might firsthand watch a news video covering that country, or we might firsthand read an article. We have to trust that the people who bring us this information are bringing us all the information, are bringing us equally the good and the bad. I think it's a subconscious hope and belief.

But the thing is, they aren't. They are heavily skewed toward the bad. To the point that the good's representation is almost nonexistent. It could be 80% good things and 20% bad things, but the news would cover it 98% bad and 2% good. And the 2% they cover would be very specifically chosen to advance whatever agenda they have, or be so sterilized and sappy that they lower their risk of someone taking issue with it.

I'm not saying everything is the media's fault because it isn't. But I do think that it is a large factor in something interesting that has happened with the internet. We believe ourselves to be more of a global community because we know we can talk directly to people around the world, but the majority of the information that bombards us comes from skewed resources.

And even if we try talking directly to a friend in, say, Russia-- she might know what it's like in Omsk where she lives, she might have experiences from the places she's happened to travel, but she isn't going to know personally firsthand everything that's happening in her country. She couldn't. She could know the ramifications of this or that decision on a higher level because it personally affects her, but she isn't going to know the aggregated stories of the land. So she, too, will be relying on the media of her country to inform her on things beyond her view. And when we look into Russia, we will be relying on the Russian media and global media to tell us what's happening there.

What is the percentage of good vs bad, as we subjectively rank it.

So inherently, we will always have a skewed view of humanity at large. And very likely, we will always be hearing about the awful things humans do to each other way more than we hear about the good things humans do for each other.

Which is why I like to, as much as possible, place my belief in the idea that ultimately we are all good at heart, or at least the majority of us are. That there are probably more random acts of kindness occurring than we'll ever know, and that if you tallied them all together, they'd probably outweigh the individual acts of violence or pain that are happening elsewhere. Because as your stories showed, even if something bad happens, people can be good and follow up with helping them even more than they would have been helped in the first place because that bad thing happened. And that's not counting any of the good things that happen, as you said, just because.


message 3: by Ale (new)

Ale Our media is just as bad as the US's, if not worse. Then again, Mexico kinda does live in a perpetual state of social turmoil. Our media just learned to thrive on it. Still, for all the violence and blood and political idiocy that we see in the news, most news shows have a "feel good" section where stories like the ones I mentioned are showed to balance, in 5 minutes, over an hour of (real or made believe) horrors.

So that's why I don't watch the news much. And when I feel that little worm of anger and hatefulness slithering around inside my head, I stop. I look for the random acts of kindness and I feel the little worm going back to sleep. And I stay away from the news for a while, focusing on the things I can do to make the world a better place. Or at least the things I can do to not make it worse. And I force myself to remember that, somewhere out there, others are doing the same. Hopefully more of them than I dare believe.


message 4: by Ais (last edited Sep 20, 2013 08:18PM) (new)

Ais Yeah I never watch the news for all the reasons given. It isn't worth it and it certainly won't give me useful information most of the time.

In Mexico, unless things have changed in the past few years (which I certainly hope they have in this case but I get the impression they haven't), the media at least might have more realistic reasons for their skewed reporting-- or at least, if they don't report on cartel activity, the very real threat of death in some areas is a perfectly understandable reason. Even though it's really sad that such a thing could happen and, worse, has. Repeatedly**. But it's interesting if you aren't seeing a lack of reporting of bad things-- are they mostly reporting bad things outside of the country or within the country too?


**in case anyone is curious about that comment-- sources, to name a few:

November 15, 2011: Mexican journalists report on drug cartels despite the risks

May 4, 2012: Mexico journalists tortured and killed by drug cartels

October 13, 2012: Mexico's drug cartels target journalists in brutal killing spree

April 26, 2013: Mexican journalists march against attacks on press, some cartel-linked

May 1, 2013: Press Freedom: Journalist in Mexico Killed for Reporting on Drug Cartels

May 6, 2013: Bodies pile up as Mexican drug cartels kill and dismember journalists

It's sad that there's even a wikipedia entry of names :(

Actually, it's sad that there's an organization called Reporters Without Borders that have a 2012 Roundup of the worldwide number of journalists killed, arrested, and more, and that apparently 2012 was the deadliest year since they started tracking numbers in 1995, with a 33% increase in journalists being killed for their work compared to 2011.


message 5: by Ale (new)

Ale Hmm, it depends on the news program. Most will focus on our country and have an international section. What makes it into the international section varies, though. We obviously get a lot about Assange and Snowden, for example, as well as everything happening with Syria, Egypt, Iran... Since we're so close to the US, the recent shootings and all the debate around them has made it to our news, too.

And, well, that's another thing. The violence we hear about is, as you point out, centred on drug cartels fighting each other and the government (though lately there's been a crapload of demonstrations against new laws that are being discussed and passed and, for some reason, that also has translated into violence in some areas). But it seems so, so different from the violence elsewhere in the world, particularly in the US, which is closest to us. They're two very different kinds of fear but they both make me equally sad.

And yes, those links you mentioned? That makes up about 50% of what we see in the newspapers and TV and hear on the radio. It's always disturbing to find articles from outside Mexico talking about the mess we're in. Kinda like it's not real.


message 6: by Ais (new)

Ais But it seems so, so different from the violence elsewhere in the world, particularly in the US, which is closest to us. They're two very different kinds of fear but they both make me equally sad.

That's a good way of putting it. There are a lot of different types of violence or systemic failures to protect people or address previous issues, and it's sad in whatever form it comes. Some are so filled with huge and blatant human rights issues it's mind boggling. Others are a much smaller, more insidious focus that still can end in tragedy.

I actually just watched three documentaries on netflix yesterday that worked interestingly together to show how bullying and misuse of power are behind the majority of the issues we face. Even though the three documentaries have nothing to do with each other and I just happened to watch them in a row.

Murder by Proxy: How America went Postal might be interesting to you, since it's about mass shootings in the US, how it started and what they think should be addressed to try to help stop it.

Bully is about bullied kids in school.

The Invisible War is about men and women serving in the US military who are sexually assaulted by their supervisors or other military personnel, and the military completely turns its back on them and refuses to fully acknowledge or properly address the full extent of the issue.

And yes, those links you mentioned? That makes up about 50% of what we see in the newspapers and TV and hear on the radio. It's always disturbing to find articles from outside Mexico talking about the mess we're in. Kinda like it's not real.

It's really sad to me :( I feel so bad for those of you in Mexico who might have to deal with that on a regular basis. And the emergency personnel who are attacked. The journalists who are silenced. I didn't link any of them but I've read a lot about the way law enforcement or government officials are targeted as well.

I went to Zihuatanejo a few years ago and we went around visiting places that literally a week after we left ended up getting hit with grenades and gunfire. This one guy was knifed down walking out of a grocery store... It's sad.

But at the same time, those things happening don't make a statement for Mexico as a whole, or all the people living in the country. I love Mexico. I've only gotten to visit it that one time but of course with its proximity, it's the country we studied the most in a lot of my Spanish classes. Mexican Spanish amuses me the most because of the chingar this and that. My speech patterns in English are full of fuck this and that so I can really get behind Mexican slang XD


message 7: by Ale (new)

Ale I've wanted to watch Bully for a while now, but I doubt it'll reach cinemas here, so I'll have to try to watch it online legally. It's the kind of documentary that needs support. I'll add the other two to my "to-watch" list, too. The Invisible War touches a terrifying subject, it seems.

But at the same time, those things happening don't make a statement for Mexico as a whole, or all the people living in the country.

Thank you for bringing this up. It upsets me to no end whenever some country issues warnings for tourists not to come to Mexico. To all of Mexico (or is it any?) I mean, I get that governments have to give their citizens fair warning about conflict areas, but not all of Mexico is in that state. I feel like media, both local and foreign, make a pretty horrible job of exaggerating the extent of the conflict. We all know where the most problematic areas are, and they're not all on tourists spots. Zihuatanejo, as far as I remember, was a bit of an anomaly. It must've been during a time when, unfortunately, things escalated around that area, but it was a short period of time.

I have online acquaintances that constantly ask me if I'm alright, if nothing bad has happened near me. Sometimes I get so upset that I start quoting things that happened in the US - I live in a border city, so that's technically near me. Thankfully, our town is relatively peaceful - sure, there's the occasional robbery and we had a period where kidnappings became awfully common. But it's not any worse than most towns around the world, I'd say.

Haha, I recently picked up fuck in my English speech pattern, but I can't get around chingar. It's easier for me to curse in English even when I'm speaking Spanish xD But I've a friend who uses chingar a lot, and I always end up laughing near him (never at him!)


message 8: by Ais (new)

Ais I mean, I get that governments have to give their citizens fair warning about conflict areas, but not all of Mexico is in that state. I feel like media, both local and foreign, make a pretty horrible job of exaggerating the extent of the conflict.

I agree. I know some people who have been going to Zihuatanejo for I think 15 years now? They've never had a problem. Other people I know regularly visit other areas. No problems.

Honestly, I wouldn't see an issue with visiting Mexico. If people asked me if it was safe, I'd probably advise them to check that local area but really, you can run across crime anywhere in the world, I don't care how affluent and isolated the place might be. You can't control what other people are going to decide to do. What you CAN control are the precautions you take yourself, the attention you pay to the environment, and your reaction if something does happen.

It's hard for me not to talk more on this because I have a pretty strong view on some things and it's counter to what is sometimes heralded in American media and even to what some other people I know in the US say. So I want to preface this by saying I'm not trying to take some sort of moral stance on what other people believe, because I'm not going to tell people what to think. Rather, philosophically and realistically I feel like some conversations need to be had on a larger scale to address some aspects of particularly American culture, at least as encouraged at times in the media. And I'm kind of a philosophical person so I like to explore complex topics.

My personal problem with the way Mexico might be viewed by some people in the US is I think some people can be kind of... idk the nice way to say it, but entitled. It's something the media perpetuates too. Like Mexico only exists for America's benefit, and the US is rarely or never for Mexico's benefit.

I don't personally agree with that mindset. I feel like it completely discounts the complexity of the culture, the language, the people-- the vast history built into the land, the importance of the things that happen there.

I was watching a documentary yesterday called Surviving Progress (another good one by the way). They were talking about the Amazon rainforest and how there is a Brazilian environmental protection agency called IBAMA trying to stop deforestation. But the problem is, big corporations and Brazilian politicians have logging companies and they get away with it, because IBAMA can't really catch them. Meanwhile, smaller towns and cities have people who rely on logging to feed their families, and they're the ones IBAMA can catch. So they're the ones who lose their jobs.

There's more or less a civil war between the people who are trying to feed their families by deforestation, and IBAMA who are trying to stop deforestation to protect the Amazon.

There was a scene where the camera was aimed at a small group of these local loggers and I'm paraphrasing but essentially one man said:

"Do you have an Amazon in your country? No. The Amazon is said to be important for the world, the lungs of the US. You don't want us to cut down the forest because it will eventually make it so Americans can't breathe. Americans might die. So we have to keep the Amazon untouched. But my family is dying. We are starving. We can't live without cutting these trees. We will die anyway if we can't do this."

The essence of what he was saying was, fuck you America, you only care because it directly affects you. You don't care about us. You expect us to live our lives for your benefit.

Which could be argued to occur in other situations too. Mexico, in the way most people agree it's the place for Americans to go to escape but some think Mexicans shouldn't be allowed to get jobs to support their families in the US.

Or take the cocaine industry. If you ever research how cocaine is made and the effects it has on the local communities, it's so awful I can't even... Yet it continues, because rich people in rich countries want or feel they need a bit of escapism, so people elsewhere in the world have to pay the price.

I think it's important for people to keep a global mindset, and remember the context both of their lives in their own city and country but also the world.

The way it is now, there are some countries that for whatever reason have more influence on other countries than those countries have in return, or at least it's not generally an equal exchange. It's all about supply and demand, so the countries that demand the most get supplies from the countries that have the resources.

Which is why, when thinking globally, it's good to keep in mind what influence a person has globally and locally, based on their own actions, and also on the country in which they live. And a lot of that comes down to treating others the way you want to be treated in return, regardless of their country of origin or the language they use to communicate. I guess that's just my personal view on the matter and that probably is what feeds into my dismissal of the idea of Mexico as a whole somehow being dangerous because some areas might be, or that any other country or culture or language in the world is somehow less important than my own.

But I can really only speak for myself, and the only reason I'm saying most of this is in part because I think it's an interesting discussion. And because as an American and seeing how American media (news, movies, everything) manages to broadcast so far out of the country, I feel like too often what is represented isn't representative of the way many people I personally know in the States think or live.

Sorry for such a randomly long message. Like I said it's really hard for me not to talk at length on issues like this because, I suppose, it's very anthropological to me and that's one of my favorite topics.

Oh PS: if this is what you were asking-- you're right, it would be "all" of Mexico instead of "any" :)


message 9: by Ale (new)

Ale The issue with deforestation in any part of the world is tricky. Here in Mexico there are some areas, like where the Monarch butterflies come to every year to reproduce, that are protected. But the locals insist on cutting down the trees to sell the wood. The problem in that particular instance is that there are plenty of areas around to get wood, it doesn't have to be there. But people go "they're just insects and this is easier" so there's always a huge battle over that.

Personally, I think that if we managed to get the reforestation rate to match or, ideally, surpass the deforestation, we'd be okay. But apparently the extra effort is unthinkable. But I know that here in Mexico we have extensive reforestation programs, so that makes me feel good about ourselves as a nation.

But yeah, I know what the documentary is getting at. It's like you said with cocaine - it became a global business. And that's become a sore point for us here in Mexico. Many people in the US disagreed when the US and Mexican governments started working together in the so-called "war on drugs" because "it's their problem", they said. But it's a problem perpetuated by a large part of the US and European societies that are hooked on drugs and demand more and more of them every day.

The problem is that most of those drugs are produced in South America and then smuggled through Central America and Mexico before being distributed to the US and elsewhere. For some reason, the cartels stay south of the US border and it's the rest of us that get stuck with the big drug dealers and all the violence they generate. But the people who protest a binational collaboration don't see that - or, if they see it, they choose to disregard their part in the matter.

Also, most of the guns the cartels in Mexico have come from the US because, in some areas, it's very easy to get large quantities of high caliber firearms. And that's another debate altogether, one that I've been following for some years now. It still boggles my mind that people get so (no pun intended) up in arms when anyone suggests that maybe it's not necessary for civilians to own bazookas and high-power firearms in their houses. Or that a more thorough screening would be prudent before selling a gun to someone.

Still, while the American media has a hand in the misrepresentation of Mexico and many other countries, at least in our case a few of the things they say are true and need to change. I just hate the way that the entire country and the entire population gets tossed into the same bag with the same label. And it's a bit hypocritical of most US media, too, to treat us this way.

Like Mexico only exists for America's benefit, and the US is rarely or never for Mexico's benefit.

That right there is another thing. It's like... the US has taken a lot of our things and made them "theirs": food (although they've butchered pretty much all of our typical dishes and Americanised them to the point where I can't even call it Mexican food anymore), drink, certain celebrations like Cinco de Mayo (by the way, if you have any insight as to why it's such a big deal in the US, I'd love to hear it - I haven't been able to find anything reliable). Our workforce over there is impressive, too, but belittled by most people.

I knew a guy from the US who constantly tried to rile me up by talking trash about Mexico. One of the things he used to say was that all of us still in the country would eventually wind up in the US working. He was shocked when I told him I didn't want to work or live there, that I was happy here. Like being happy in my country was an impossibility. And that's something the media has sold to the rest of the world, that everyone here wants out for one reason or another and that living in the US is everyone's dream. But it isn't. And when someone dares say so, then you're dissing the US and are a horrible person. Which basically takes us back to your comment about the entitlement of most US citizens.

Most, but not all. I also have friends who love Mexico and its culture and always ask me about this or that tradition and I'm always happy to fangirl over my heritage.

I'm glad to know you're able to see past all of that and have a fair view of your own country and mine. Which is why I don't mind your long comments - I rather enjoy these conversations, mainly because they're rare to have because few people are willing to look past false patriotism and realise that every single society has flaws and we're not really in any position to tell the rest of the world what to do.

PS: Thanks! I often have little moments like that, when I have no idea what I'm saying and the translator in me just starts spazzing and is no help at all :p


message 10: by Ais (new)

Ais I thought the same thing about the deforestation. I thought their view was really interesting, but I also wondered if it wasn't possible for some other jobs for the people in that area to exist so they were still able to feed their family without deforestation. Like, what if they were even hired instead to do reforestation? I don't know anything about the area though so I can't say much on it-- except that, while it's an interesting point that guy made, at the same time, it really isn't a simple issue of "the Americans are being assholes and taking our jobs from us because they like air." If the Amazon were to go away, it would be a huge issue for Brazilians as well. For everyone. All of humanity could be affected, not just the US.

Also, most of the guns the cartels in Mexico have come from the US because, in some areas, it's very easy to get large quantities of high caliber firearms. And that's another debate altogether, one that I've been following for some years now.

lol good luck following that. I follow it too but it's such a contentious debate that it never seems to get anywhere, and seems less of a debate and more of strongly opinionated people getting pissed off at each other.

But yeah, the US gets drugs from Mexico and Mexico gets guns from the US. It's too bad that isn't a healthier exchange.

Cinco de Mayo: I don't know, honestly. I can only hypothesize based on minimal information and research. According to wikipedia, It originated with Mexican-American communities in the American West as a way to commemorate the cause of freedom and democracy during the first years of the American Civil War, and today the date is observed in the United States as a celebration of Mexican heritage and pride.

That seems to track pretty well with my understanding because where I live now has a pretty big Mexican presence and Cinco de Mayo is huge, but where I grew up we were like whitebread central and I don't recall it ever being much of a thing. We did more things related to Native Americans there because of the proximity to reservations.

Also, in general American society likes to party and drink. So I suppose they can use it as an excuse for that. Same way St Patrick's Day is huge.

I don't know why the US has co-opted so many things from Mexico in particular.

He was shocked when I told him I didn't want to work or live there, that I was happy here. Like being happy in my country was an impossibility.

lol I wonder if there's something similar for Canadians who might be shocked to learn not all Americans want to jump the border and go over there. Either way, that's unfortunate that he went at things from that perspective. I hope your responses gave him something to consider.

And when someone dares say so, then you're dissing the US and are a horrible person. Which basically takes us back to your comment about the entitlement of most US citizens.

The funny thing is, Americans can get accused of the same thing. There are probably people who would accuse me of not being "American enough" because there are some people whose feelings of patriotism become so intense that they lose sight of the bigger picture. So to them, there are very strict rules about what is and isn't "American" and most of those rules they've developed are things I don't think are actually representative of what it is to be American. Actually, a lot of their values are things I think go directly against the idea that the US is supposed to represent. So those people and I would likely be at an impasse were we to attempt to have a discussion on the topic.

It's kind of weird because there's this, I don't know, underlying Thing that you have to be patriotic, and it has to manifest itself in a certain way. For instance, the flag. A loooot of things related to the flag. My bank acted like I was the devil when I asked them one time if I could possibly not have the flag as my credit card design, because the design was ugly not because it was the flag. But cripes, you'd think I'd suggested we raze the land and poison the ocean. Also, did you know that Roseanne Barr received DEATH THREATS because she accidentally sang the National Anthem off-key at a baseball game? That's just... unfathomable to me that people would freak out that much about it but apparently it's a huge deal to a lot of people. I suppose that's just something I don't understand the same as I don't understand the obsession with sports. But either way, to me it doesn't make sense to get so angry with another American who was singing the American National Anthem at an American sports event. What? Why are we putting so much effort into this idea of what is and isn't acceptable patriotism? Especially since, if you actually look at the history of the Star-Spangled Banner, the melody was taken from a British song.

I personally feel that I couldn't possibly be more patriotic than when I'm talking to people like they're human beings, and I'm showing that the US really can be the place for freedom and equality that it's supposed to be.

Our workforce over there is impressive, too, but belittled by most people.

That's an understatement. In my personal experience, taking into account undocumented people and immigrants from varying countries that I have ever been around, and of course making sweeping generalizations: I feel like Mexicans in particular are what most people would consider to be "ideal" workers. They work their asses off, don't complain, and sadly (for them) are willing to be paid little in comparison to what other people would expect. And for Spanish speakers in general, if I go into a store and speak Spanish they are really friendly and welcoming.

Usually. lol one time I tried telling this guy at a Mexican bakery something but then I forgot all the key words and panicked. I finally ended up writing at the top of the sheet I was trying to give him something like "Para traducirlo, llama al Juan a xxx. Habla español."

That dude got so mad at me XD He was like "TRADUCIR?!" and looked at me like I'd just murdered his mother. At which point I was like "wtf isn't traducir translate??" and got extremely confused. I wonder if he thought I was saying he needed a translator for me and not that I needed a translator for him XD It was so funny because he was the first Spanish speaker I'd ever tried speaking Spanish to-- in the US, Mexico, Spain, and even Switzerland-- who got so mad at me for... I don't even know why XD

Is there a word close to traducir or traducirlo that he could have thought I was saying that would have been extremely rude or offensive?

few people are willing to look past false patriotism and realise that every single society has flaws and we're not really in any position to tell the rest of the world what to do.

Very true. There is no perfect society and no faultless country. The same as people. It's what makes us human. And it isn't a bad thing. Really, the way to look at it is we have all these countries in the world, and they're all going at things from different angles. The best thing to do is actually to accept the flaws and mistakes, and be able to say, "Hey, we're having this problem in the US, and it looks like Australia tried X and it resulted in Y which would be bad for us, and France did A which resulted in B which would be okay, but you know, when China did C and D came of it, that could totally work."

It's really just one huge learning opportunity. I mean, criminy. We're all the same species, one which at its biological base often seeks out or flourishes in/from community. We should all try to use the community of other cultures and countries to our mutual benefit as much as we can.

PS: lol no problem. Good lord, don't get me started on por vs para. I know the correct usage, or I think I do, but the second I start writing in Spanish I'm like OH NO IS IT POR OR PARA? NO MATTER WHAT I'LL BE WROONNNG.


message 11: by Ale (new)

Ale Eh, that explanation doesn't sit well with me. Because our Independence Day is not Cinco de Mayo, it's the 16th of September. I always thought that CdM got adopted because we kicked French ass and the Americans thought that was funny or something xD
Anyway, it's really funny for me to hear about all these 5 de Mayo specials like it's Labor Day Weekend or something.

Also, in general American society likes to party and drink. So I suppose they can use it as an excuse for that. Same way St Patrick's Day is huge.

Haha, I once had a similar conversation with my girlfriend and she came to more or less that conclusion. She's Swedish, so that coloured her comment, too: according to her, Swedes drink whether they're happy or sad so it doesn't seem as shocking that the US would adopt a drinking holiday from another country.

For instance, the flag.

You know I've always found that hilarious? Like, super patriotic Americans have the flag every-freaking-where, underwear included. They alter it and play with the design like it's nobody's business. Here in Mexico it's not even legal to have a flag in your house - you have to get a special permit, otherwise only government and military facilities can raise the flag, and even then only on special occasions, like Flag Day or Independence Day and the likes. Don't even think about wearing it on your bra or boxers 'cause then you'll get kicked out of the country or something. I mean, a singer tried using the emblem on a CD cover and he was fined and forced to change it.
So it's funny to be how differently we treat our flags - the US can use it wherever and Mexico is very strict about it.

Also, did you know that Roseanne Barr received DEATH THREATS because she accidentally sang the National Anthem off-key at a baseball game?

That's another thing I find weird. The tune's British, for one. And then, just like with the flag, it can be altered to fit any musical genre the singer likes. As long as he/she's on key, of course. That was an extreme response.
Here in Mexico we're kinda screwy about our anthem, too. It was written by two Spanish guys, for starters. And, once again, there's strict rules about when and where to sing it and which parts of it to sing. A man got exiled because he changed the tune to a salsa or mambo or something.

So, again, huge differences. While I really like our flag and what it symbolises, and I love our anthem 'cause it's very go-get-'em and kick-their-asses, I don't think it makes me more or less patriotic whether I pledge allegiance to them or not. For me, it's far more patriotic to try to do right by my country by working hard to help others better themselves, by taking care of the environment and abiding by the law.

Is there a word close to traducir or traducirlo that he could have thought I was saying that would have been extremely rude or offensive?

What a nutcase! I don't know, really. What I can think of is that maybe he did believe you were blaming him for the miscommunication. I worked at a call centre for over 3 years. About a year was spent working the Spanish queue, where we were supposed to get only calls from Spanish-speaking folk. But sometimes we got someone whose English clearly wasn't good enough and it was always a toss up to decide whether or not to offer them the chance to speak in Spanish. Some people got really offended because they felt like we were telling them that their English sucked while others were relieved because they didn't have to struggle anymore. A few others were not offended but refused to speak in Spanish because they wanted to practice.
So maybe this one guy was rather sensitive about his communication skills or maybe he had some bad experiences with translators/interpreters. Because I can't think of a single word that sounds like traducir that could be offensive in the least.

"Hey, we're having this problem in the US, and it looks like Australia tried X and it resulted in Y which would be bad for us, and France did A which resulted in B which would be okay, but you know, when China did C and D came of it, that could totally work."

I know, right? How difficult is that? Our politicians sometimes get it all wrong and try to emulate Canada when we're not even close to be able to do so. The basics aren't the same, so trying to imitate them will only end in disaster. But they just try to skip so many steps it borders on pathetic.

We're all the same species

That's the bottom line. And yet, it's alarmingly disappointing how much society at large struggles with such a simple truth.

PS: That's a common mistake for people whose mother language isn't Spanish. That and gender for nouns and articles. But I usually let it slide because I've such a hard time with prepositions in English xD That same guy I was talking about before made fun of me to no end because once I slipped and said "I have too much time in my hands". There was also a whole debate about which was more complicated, Spanish or English. I've always thought Spanish is more of a hassle to learn as a second language than English, simply because of that thing I said about gender and because we have like a gazillion different tenses.


message 12: by Ais (new)

Ais So it's funny to see how differently we treat our flags - the US can use it wherever and Mexico is very strict about it.

That's interesting how Mexico deals with the flag. I never knew that! Now I wonder how other countries deal with their flags.

lol this got me doing google image searches of American flag apparel. Check out some of the gems I found: sequinned lace undies, flag butterfly wings on an underwear model, plus this and lol this which comes from this blog post, and shirts like this or this. And this which does not seem flattering on the man to me lol

I grew curious about the rules since I know there are very strict rules about the flag on the pole that don't seem to translate to apparel. According to wikipedia, there actually is a flag code that says it shouldn't be used for advertising purposes and it can't be embroidered etc in xyz manner but apparently everyone ignores it. Also it says its usage in fashion was okayed as long as the actual design of the flag isn't used but I don't quite understand that since I see the flag in its full form on fashion (as evidenced above). Maybe there's something where they can't have the right number of stars or something.

ALSO. Look what I accidentally found XD It encompasses wearing the American flag AND Cinco de Mayo! It's like it was made for this.

"I have too much time in my hands".

Aww, I love that! It has a really pretty mental image for me.

I actually love hearing people slip in English on little things like that, because to me it ties back to how they might frame the idea in their native language. Same as I find myself building a sentence in Spanish and Japanese the same as in English-- and that doesn't work but sort of is okay in Spanish, but is completely all get out wrong as hell in Japanese lol And similarly, it really amuses me in manga or anime when the English translation says something like "I love..." but the actual Japanese says "toward you..." and the translators had to infer what the sentence was GOING to say based on context. Because in English we start with who's doing what to who, and Japanese starts with who's receiving from whom what.

There was also a whole debate about which was more complicated, Spanish or English. I've always thought Spanish is more of a hassle to learn as a second language than English, simply because of that thing I said about gender and because we have like a gazillion different tenses.

I think Spanish is pretty easy, or at least, to me it's very understandable. There are exceptions to the rules but that's the case anywhere. But overall the gender thing isn't difficult once you get used to it, and the nice thing about the tenses is they're very consistent. You might have some exceptional spelling here or there for some verbs that like to get freaky like ir, but for the most part you are presented with a set of rules and you can apply it across the board if you know whether the word ends in ir, er, or ar. And the tenses let you be very specific about what you are and are not saying.

My favorite tense is future. I love how it's like, "This WILL happen, bitches! I don't care what y'all say!" But my second favorite is conditional perfect, because it looks so pretty and it's fun to conjugate. Also I enjoy the ability to say "I would have __" when making more complex sentences. Apparently I like confidence and ambiguity as my two favorite forms XD

I feel like English must be a bit confusing because it's kind of a mishmash of languages in some cases. And American English at least has such a lack of commonly used levels of politeness that we pretty much address everyone the same whether they're the President of the United States or the jerk who yelled at us on the street. An epithet might change here or there, but it's the same sentence structure and usage of verbs, just a variation of what verbs you use and whether you end it with "President" or "asshole!" I always thought that must be strange coming from languages that have built in variations, like the usted vs tu form in Spanish, or pretty much everything in Japanese.

It also means I accidentally am rude in other languages because I'm so used to not having to worry about politeness outside of my tone that, when flustered, I default to informal forms in other languages even when I shouldn't.


message 13: by Ale (new)

Ale ALSO. Look what I accidentally found XD It encompasses wearing the American flag AND Cinco de Mayo! It's like it was made for this.

I just laughed so hard my mom actually came knocking on my door to ask what the hell was wrong with me xD
It's so stupid... "It's a Mexican holiday, f*** your flag even if we're in YOUR country." My mom actually has a saying that goes very well with this: Por eso luego todo el mundo the odia. Something like, "See? That's why everyone hates you?" That school just inadvertently made those American kids dislike Mexican kids just a little more. And the kids that want an apology are clearly deluded.

this got me doing google image searches of American flag apparel

Ew. Some of those are really distasteful... what the heck, peeps?

It reminds me of a post I saw on tumblr some months ago. You know how tumblr users sometimes bash Facebook users, even though some, like me, use both platforms. Anywho. The thing was that someone came across a picture on Facebook of a Muslim woman (at least she was of Arabic descent - whether she was actually a Muslim is up to debate as the only thing hinting at her religion was her clothing) wearing a hijab with an American-flag print. The horrible, hateful comments that were posted in response to the photo made my skin crawl. They were talking about how the woman should be killed for disgracing the American flag. Of course, the tumblr person went ahead and posted about a dozen pictures similar to the ones you linked me to, and the debate sparked from there. Because, somehow, it's okay to wear the flag over your crotch but not around your hair and the difference is made by how your religious beliefs are perceived by the rest of the world. Never mind that the woman may have felt every bit as patriotic as the woman wearing the crotchless panties, if not more.

There are rules about all this, by the way? I'll have to look into it. I suppose the penalty is not as severe as here in Mexico or something. Or, like you said, as long as the number of stars or stripes is incorrect all's fair? Sounds kinda lame.

Aww, I love that! It has a really pretty mental image for me.

It does, doesn't it? It does for me, too. I even made a drawing for a friend's birthday with that in mind.

I actually love hearing people slip in English on little things like that, because to me it ties back to how they might frame the idea in their native language.

I feel the same way when I hear foreigners try to speak Spanish. Sometimes it's easy to pick up what it is they want to say, and sometimes it's so delightfully convoluted that it takes me a few tries. But that's the beauty of language for me: it allows me to take a peek into the deepest workings of the other person's mind without having to pry too much.

I think Spanish is pretty easy, or at least, to me it's very understandable.

It depends a lot on the person, yeah. The fact that there are so many rules can work both ways: it can make things super-easy or complicate them because there's just too many rules to learn. But then, that's what made it easier for me to learn English: there aren't that many rules, and half the time you can disregard them and still come up with a coherent sentence.

My mom refuses to learn English. She can understand it well enough when reading and sometimes when hearing it, but can't speak a word of it. One of the things she hates the most about it is how one word can be used in many different contexts and so have many different meanings. I keep telling her it's the same with most languages but she just can't deal with it when it comes to English.

But overall the gender thing isn't difficult once you get used to it

I worked at a science museum for a long time doing various things, translation of exhibits among them. We had this huge exhibit on Memory that I almost single-handedly translated and I was kinda proud of it. But one of the members of the board wanted to make herself useful so, without us knowing, she went ahead and made her own translation, aided by her Spanish-impaired daughter. I spent five hours at a meeting with the member of the board trying to clean up her translation and comparing it to mine. I kept cringing whenever I saw things like "la mapa" /the map/, "el silla" /the chair/ and so on. In the end, I got up and left - there were other people working so I just said I was tired. I was, but I was actually tired of trying to hold myself back and saying the secondary translation was crap xD

My favorite tense is future. I love how it's like, "This WILL happen, bitches! I don't care what y'all say!"

Haha, ditto. It's so final that it just feels like it makes you go still and just nod minutely so Future won't kick your ass xD

Apparently I like confidence and ambiguity as my two favorite forms XD

Haha, confidently ambiguous? How would that even work...?

I feel like English must be a bit confusing because it's kind of a mishmash of languages in some cases.

"English doesn't borrow from other languages. It lures them into a dark alley, beats the crap out of them and then looks around for spare grammar."

And American English at least has such a lack of commonly used levels of politeness that we pretty much address everyone the same whether they're the President of the United States or the jerk who yelled at us on the street.

Yeah, that's always bothered me. When I was working the business queue at the call centre, I felt kinda bad that I couldn't really make the other person feel like I was being as respectful and polite and mindful of their status as manager or whatever because I kept having to say "you" all the time. Sure, I could call them by their last name, but I've a tendency to call my friends by their last name when I'm being playful, so it didn't sit well with me. The same happens when I watch interviews with the president and the reporter's all "you" this and "you" that. I kept thinking back to Spanish: for everything.

Well, most people nowadays understand the informality of English, so not a lot of people take issue with being addressed as instead of usted. Those who do, however, are quick to point out that you shouldn't be a brat and usted is more appropriate :P

With me, it's the opposite. I'll try to be as proper as possible and so I come off as, I don't know, snobbish or something. It also makes people think I'm waaay older than I actually am.


message 14: by Ais (new)

Ais But then, that's what made it easier for me to learn English: there aren't that many rules, and half the time you can disregard them and still come up with a coherent sentence.

That made me laugh out loud XD It's true. English is sort of like, spew all these words and letters out there and hey, probably we'll get the point. I mean there are obviously rules, but the Official English vs Commonly Used English are pretty far apart in some ways. Writing grammatically correct sentences drives me nuts sometimes because it sounds SO AWKWARD, like the sentence is trying way too hard to be taken seriously instead of just chilling and being valued for itself. But in some contexts it's just sort of what you have to do.

"English doesn't borrow from other languages. It lures them into a dark alley, beats the crap out of them and then looks around for spare grammar."

I laughed out loud at this too XD What's that from? Because it's hilarious.

I'll try to be as proper as possible and so I come off as, I don't know, snobbish or something. It also makes people think I'm waaay older than I actually am.

Honestly it's probably better to err on the side of proper. I always try to speak in a more polite form in Japanese, Spanish, whatever language allows it. But my native English brain freaks out when I lose the words and defaults to informal without asking me. It makes way more sense to me that people who have layered politeness built into their primary language (or language that surrounds them) would default to more polite.

People still get snarky with subtle sleights in American English. Like with the President of the US, reporters who don't like him or don't like his political party like to throw out "Mr. Obama" instead of "President Obama" as a way of downgrading/degrading him without outright saying something that could get them in some sort of official trouble.

The thing was that someone came across a picture on Facebook of a Muslim woman (at least she was of Arabic descent - whether she was actually a Muslim is up to debate as the only thing hinting at her religion was her clothing) wearing a hijab with an American-flag print.

When people are mean to Muslims in the US it particularly upsets me. Especially if they are American or consider themselves to be. I can't even go into it because I get really frustrated by the disrespect the Muslim community gets for their faith alone, and the way people who say these things go straight for especially degrading things.

It's ridiculous. Islam is not an evil religion any more than Christianity or pretty much any religion is. It's a religion that's extremely misunderstood, though. It's also a religion whose fundamentalism is heavily influenced by the surrounding culture and government in which it's practiced. And there is a lot of misinformation out there regarding women in Islam and what exactly the hijab does and doesn't mean.

I've seen multiple accounts from Muslim Americans who say that it got a lot worse after 9/11 and that's incredibly sad to me.

Myself, if I saw that picture, I'd think it was awesome.

Anyway, I'm glad you were amused by that video lol

I spent five hours at a meeting with the member of the board trying to clean up her translation and comparing it to mine.

Uggggh that sounds horribly onerous. What translation did they end up using? Also why would they even consider a non-native's translation compared to a native speaker's? O_o


message 15: by Ale (new)

Ale Writing grammatically correct sentences drives me nuts sometimes because it sounds SO AWKWARD, like the sentence is trying way too hard to be taken seriously instead of just chilling and being valued for itself.

I KNOW. I'm writing a novel now, and at first I tried really hard to be all grammatically correct in the narration but, rereading my progress the other night, I noticed I defaulted back to just "Commonly Used English", like you said. I figure I'll clean it up when I'm done, because otherwise I spent 40% of my time rewriting the sentences so they'll be grammatically correct, and then another 5% obsessing over how practically no one speaks like that. Sometimes I even take books by authors I like and respect and try to see how they did it and it's not helpful, either xD

Also, I had a huge debate with myself about whether or not to use contractions in narration. Again, my progress so far is riddled with inconsistencies in that regard, but in the end Neil Gaiman settled it for me. A fan of his posted a comment on his (Gaiman's) blog about how a teacher had told him that "serious" writing didn't allow for contractions. A teacher of mine said the same, too, so I knew where the fan was coming from. And Gaiman just went ahead and called bullshit on that idea, saying that you should write however you feel like writing. I mean, I'm sure an editor might disagree and have you redo all your contractions, but it makes me feel kinda relieved to hear that I don't have to stress over it from someone as talented as Gaiman.

What's that from? Because it's hilarious.

I don't really know. I saw it about a year ago on Facebook as one of those e-Card thingers and it stuck. I googled it and found results for t-shirts and a lot of merch, and someone said that it might be from a Terry Pratchett book. I've only just begun reading my first book by him, but I can already tell it's something he'd think of!

It makes way more sense to me that people who have layered politeness built into their primary language (or language that surrounds them) would default to more polite.

Yep. Like, I can't talk to my grandma and call her "tú" - she doesn't like it and thinks it's impolite for me to do so. But I can call grandpa "tú" and he doesn't mind - and he's 10 years younger than grandma. I had teachers who expected to be addressed as "usted" and got really angry if we didn't.

My mom, for example, had a ceramics teacher about 10 years younger than her, and she still used "usted" with him, even though he asked her not to. It wasn't until they became friends that she dropped it and switched to "tú". When he asked why, she said it was because she was taught that teachers are figures of authority, no matter how old they are.

People still get snarky with subtle sleights in American English. Like with the President of the US, reporters who don't like him or don't like his political party like to throw out "Mr. Obama" instead of "President Obama" as a way of downgrading/degrading him without outright saying something that could get them in some sort of official trouble.

A few reporters are like that here in Mexico. In the case of our current president, they'll drop the "president" part altogether and just say Peña Nieto. I've never heard anyone refer to him just by his first name (Enrique), but some reporters do that with their state's governors if they don't like them or strongly disagree with them. I feel like it's unnecessary to be so disrespectful and I'm always reminded of Band of Brothers, when David Schwimmer's character is reminded by Damian Lewis's that, when they salute, they salute the rank, not the person. So, yeah, you may not like the person but you should at least show respect to their position.

Islam is not an evil religion any more than Christianity or pretty much any religion is.

I know. It's taken me a long time to convince my mother of this, because she's very outspoken about how most Muslim men and women behave. We once saw a woman at the mall that was dressed in typical Muslim fashion and mom made a snide remark that the woman overheard. I doubt she understood my mom, 'cause mom said it in Spanish, but her tone was unmistakeable. I took mom away and told her that she was being disrespectful and she didn't get it at first. But, over time, she's come to at least understand that their ways and ours are very different but she has to respect that difference.

What translation did they end up using? Also why would they even consider a non-native's translation compared to a native speaker's?

Mine. The meeting ended up being a monumental waste of time - they didn't even finish going through the whole thing. It was just to placate the lady and make her feel like she was helping out even if all she did was waste our time. Just... politics.

As for why would they consider a non-native's translation over a native's? Because translation is still not regarded as a "serious thing". Back then I was in high school and still hadn't decided to be a translator, but even then I knew that translating is not child's play. It's not something a secretary with passing English skills can do; certainly not something the board member's daughter, or even the board member herself, could pull off.

It sounds arrogant, but my English has always been good. I skipped English in high school altogether because my teachers didn't know what to do with me, so they gave me a 100 each month and let me read or write or just not show up. But I was in a private school from kindergarden to junior high school and their English courses were excellent. So by the time I landed the job at the museum, all I was missing was a deeper understanding of English and translation in general, which is what I'm getting at school now. And I wasn't foolish enough not to ask for help or to think that the first draft I handed in would be the final one.

Even now as a translation student I have to fight to get jobs and for people to recognise that what I do can't be done by someone who merely knows two (or more) languages. And people don't want to pay what we ask, either - they think it's too expensive. So they give the work to their secretaries or assistants and don't pay theme extra.

... And I just got all upset about it xD Sorry, total rant. But it's something that bugs me and that I hope changes soon.


message 16: by Ais (new)

Ais Even now as a translation student I have to fight to get jobs and for people to recognise that what I do can't be done by someone who merely knows two (or more) languages.

That makes sense. I've had a lot of Spanish teachers over the years, and they've all been good at being able to explain the situation. Like you with English, my Spanish was always good. You wouldn't know it now with how awkwardly I phrase sentences, but I placed in the top 10 in my state every year in high school, although to be fair I never got 1st. I think it was 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 8th. (8th was the year I was simultaneously taking Spanish and French and I think my mind got a bit messed up between the two on the similar words.) But I was kind of a lazy student. I'll study and do my homework but I relied on my intuition on the language and in nitpicky grammatical situations that doesn't always pay off.

Anyway, point being, I know people today who have jobs where they speak multiple languages, and all those teachers I've had in Spanish and other languages-- but when you said that it reminded me of my teacher during work. She is incredible. She knows Spanish by the country, including slang and other nuances; she can explain anything, and she's very understandable in her lessons. Her accent also is very good. I would trust her translations and explanations above anyone else's, and yet, interestingly, someone else I know said they got the same or similar score as her on whatever official translator test you have to take. And yet I would say she's leaps and bounds ahead of this other person in her understanding of the language, even if both of them can speak it and technically both of them can translate it.

That's a shame if you're having a hard time getting jobs-- especially if you were like that teacher.

someone said that it might be from a Terry Pratchett book.

Ohhh I would believe it. I love Terry Pratchett and it's totally his style.

I mean, I'm sure an editor might disagree and have you redo all your contractions, but it makes me feel kinda relieved to hear that I don't have to stress over it from someone as talented as Gaiman.

That's awesome! I love Neil Gaiman. He's such a cool guy, and he seems really approachable and down-to-earth considering how talented and well-known he also is. I saw an article that collected recommendations from a lot of different authors on grammar and how to write etc, and it was interesting seeing the varied responses. There, Neil Gaiman had the same sort of response. He basically said to write what you want to write.

Here it is if you're curious: Ten Rules for Writing Fiction


message 17: by Ale (new)

Ale they got the same or similar score as her on whatever official translator test you have to take. And yet I would say she's leaps and bounds ahead of this other person in her understanding of the language, even if both of them can speak it and technically both of them can translate it.

That's not to say that their translations would be as good. I have a lot of classmates with an amazing grasp of English both in practice and theory, but their translations are just not very good. It sounds like your teacher has, like you said, an intuitive grasp of the language, and I'm sure her translations would sound very natural even if she's not a native-speaker. But then that other person's work may not read or flow as naturally. It's all about grasping the message and being able to convey it as close to the second language's nature as possible, and that's not something everyone can achieve, no matter how good you're at a language other than your own.

As a funny aside on translation, writers are said to be the best translators. I think it was Octavio Paz who was praised as an excellent translator; so much, in fact, that many people regarded his translations to be better than the originals. That's just kind of mind-boggling for me xD

Oh, I've read those tips from Gaiman! They're awesome. I'm working on making them into some sort of print and having them close by to my desk to remind me to just keep writing no matter what.

There are a lot of useful things in there from other authors, too. Thanks a lot for the link! :D


message 18: by Ais (new)

Ais Ale wrote: "As a funny aside on translation, writers are said to be the best translators. I think it was Octavio Paz who was praised as an excellent translator; so much, in fact, that many people regarded his translations to be better than the originals. That's just kind of mind-boggling for me xD"

Interesting! I could see that. Writers pay more attention to the flow of words than the normal person probably does just because theyd be more aware of it from their interest. Now I want to read something translated by Octavio Paz and then try to read the original XD Any recs?

That's a good idea to make a print with that by your desk! HMM. I should try that too sometime. Are you going to make it cool-looking, like graphic design?


message 19: by Ale (new)

Ale Any recs?

Sendas de Oku by Matsuo Basho is very good. Apparently I've got him confused with someone else because I found only three translation works by him, but still, he's awesome. If you have a chance to read El Laberinto de la Soledad (The Labyrinth of Solitude), either in Spanish or English, tho', I greatly recommend it. His insight into all-things Mexican is amazing, particularly because he doesn't subscribe to the "you poor Mexican" attitude but takes a more objective approach to our culture.

Are you going to make it cool-looking, like graphic design?

That's the idea! I can link you to it or something when I have it done, tho' that might not be anytime soon :p


message 20: by Ais (new)

Ais Thanks for the recs! I put them on my list!

And you totally should :) I might print it and post it on my wall too if that's okay with you. If you want, I could always make my own instead.


message 21: by Ale (new)

Ale I wouldn't mind at all! Or you could make one, too, and then we could have both up!

... not entirely sure why other than it'd be doubly awesome.


message 22: by Ais (new)

Ais lol it could be two times the encouragement and reassurance


message 23: by Ale (new)

Ale Ais wrote: "lol it could be two times the encouragement and reassurance"

Exactly.


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