Demon Daughter spoiler discussion space > Likes and Comments
22 likes · Like
On my second read...
At about 64% along Pen is having the talk with Otta. He says "It would not be safe do so" missing the to.
I wondered about something else which is probably not an error but ... When Pen is in the well his tunic is described as white with white animals embroidered on it. I feel like the animals were maybe brown in Orphans? Of course he might have several tunics in an assortment of animal colors.
Loved this delightful tale, starting on my first re-read.
One early point that I enjoyed was that the demon/rat seemed to be able to open up the trap/cage that the cabin boy had her in, he complained it was the third time the door had opened.
And I also very much enjoyed watching the children play and draw together, with Pen/Des down on the floor with them, a charming bit of home life that helped set the tone of the story.
More comments to come.
I really enjoyed getting to see family interactions in this story. Many books focus on the before or maybe after of growing up/having kids, and few seem to cover family life, with young children particularly. If they do, it tends to be only from the kids perspectives (with virtually no parents), or only the adults. Here though we get views of both sides. I thought the opening was wonderful, seasoned readers could tell right away what was up, but a new reader would still have enough clues to know something was up even if they didn't fully understand until later. Of course, like any good story, I feel we are left satisfied about the ending but still wanting more. There are rich seeds for potential futures scattered all about it seems like. For instance a book about Rina and Otta and Atto's continued interactions as they grow. They seem to bond nicely as sisters, but jealousy over Atto could become a conflict down the line (and who doesn't fight with siblings even without such gaps in abilities?). Or O&A's 'apprenticeship' to P&D. I have only had a chance to read through once so far, but I was very intrigued by Otta's mother being from the same area as Penric. I wondered while reading if there might be some twist where we discover Otta is actually related to Penric somehow, or maybe even to his former fiancé. Which helped to keep me guessing about what would happen, even though it felt pretty clear that the most likely would be that Otta with Atto becomes the adopted daughter, the wished for 3rd child. Or perhaps it was just that was the most desired outcome and as readers we were not disappointed and given a very satisfying end. As for typos, I didn't notice much. There was a place, about 34% through, that said "While as troublesome as the loom to set up,..." Which seems to perhaps omit the word "was". And about 60% through (location 1208 or 2053 kindle version) it says " "Put that was, we still won't be traveling light." Which I was confused by "Put that was" and wondered if it had meant to be a colloquialism or if a word was in error perhaps. Also at 65% (location 1322) It says "How could she tell if Otta were ascended?" I felt it should have said "Atto", referring to the demon, and not Otta wondering how to tell if she herself were ascended. And those two or three things are all that I noticed on my first read through and I only mention because they do pull you out of the story world magic (well they pulled me at least) and hang you up on mechanics, albeit only briefly. Overall a very enjoyable story that really sparks the imagination full of interesting characters I can't help but want to get to know even better. I felt like in Otta and Rina we are only seeing the very beginning of a full and exciting life, and the foundation for characters to rival Miles should their tales one day be told. Which even if they aren't, and no future stories developed, having such a rich seed makes the story that much more satisfying and lovely.
A question in my mind is what happened to Lin? When the new maid was introduced I kept expecting to see a half of a sentence saying something like, "the family was getting Liva used to their ways, she had been hired when Lin left to marry . . ." or something like that. I know it isn't important to the plot, Lin was probably so used to strange things happening in this household that new staff members were needed to be surprised. But I do wonder what happened to her, and hope it was something like marriage or some fancier job rather than being run over by a cart on the way to do the shopping or some other tragic end.
I wondered what happened to Lin too, and like Jerri was a little concerned, guess it just shows how cozy we have all gotten with these characters.
Fun story and a great reminder that the Bastard doesn't pay much attention to rules or what usually is done (as shown by giving a demon to a six-year-old and neatly inserting that six-year-old in a demoned household. ) Desdomena's maternal side was unexpected, because much has been made of how difficult it is for demons to co-exist, but not inconsistent, since much has also been made of how much she disliked demons being done away with. Also, delicious to speculate on the amount and variety of chaos a baby demon being mothered by a multilayered demon in a household with little children could cause. So thanks again for a great new story!
Sandy wrote: "I really enjoyed getting to see family interactions in this story. Many books focus on the before or maybe after of growing up/having kids, and few seem to cover family life, with young children pa..."
The two typos you caught were real, but I caught them too on my first-day read-through, so if you re-synch your Kindle, you should find the corrected version, along with the map. (I just did.) The other vendors' files were put up after those two corrections (and the map) were entered and should be fine.
Otta-Atto was a proofreading nightmare, clever as I thought myself and Rina for thinking it up. "Otto" and "Atta" could be searched-for, but flipping the two names was really evasive to the eye.
If you knock out the two intervening clauses in the line about the loom/spinning jenny, you'll see that sentence is OK.
Rina's future is actually less clear to me now she's had more stage time to develop. Now I'm starting to wonder if her future adult calling may be as an artist, not a divine like her papa. (Or a fabric maker like her mom.) Little as she suspects it now. But yeah, having grown up in a family of 3 sibs myself, I don't imagine their future domestic life will all be conflict-free, however positive overall.
As you figured out, Pen and Otta's mom are unrelated -- their birthplaces are as far apart as western Switzerland and the northeast coast of Germany.
Glad you enjoyed the tale! It's got me thinking more about these characters' futures as well. It's a good sign when a new story makes a difference.
Ta, L.
Talli wrote: "On my second read...
At about 64% along Pen is having the talk with Otta. He says "It would not be safe do so" missing the to.
I wondered about something else which is probably not an error but ......"
Sadly, that is a real typo. Drat. It may get fixed later, but given how many people never noticed it, it's probably not too urgent.
Pen's vestment embroidery is usually white, yes, but nothing says it can't be other things on other outfits. They are all hand-made by Nikys & Co., so lots of variation is possible.
The layout of Pen's house keeps shifting in my mind, as various tales have/have not needed details. If the upper floors are as I imagine, there ought to be a short hallway between the front door and the atrium, below those upper-floor front rooms. But yes, the atrium is open to the sky, something Canton-bred Penric still finds weird. Rain belongs outdoors!
Ta, L.
Jerri wrote: "A question in my mind is what happened to Lin? When the new maid was introduced I kept expecting to see a half of a sentence saying something like, "the family was getting Liva used to their ways, ..."
@ Jerrie (and Noreen):
Lin indeed left to be married -- it was about time. I dimly imagine Liva was a younger cousin of hers, recommended upon that occasion. If Liva had developed a larger part in this one, that might have got mentioned -- I did think about it -- but, novella not novel. Focus needs to be tighter.
Ta, L.
I'm so happy to have a new Penric novella! I also kept wondering how Rina is going to develop with Otta/Atto "apprenticed" to Pen and Des. Thank you for the book. Oh yes, i loved seeing Iroki again too.
The text says, with perhaps deliberate vagueness, that this is the year of Penric’s and Nikys’s 40th birthdays, without saying when in the year those birthdays occur. I might guess at some time after the statement, but it seems to be already autumn when we get that information; were they both December babies? Or is this something we’re not meant to know? The date of the wedding anniversary is also left vague.
I know these dates are arbitrary and don’t really matter, but they nag at me slightly.
Jonathan wrote: "The text says, with perhaps deliberate vagueness, that this is the year of Penric’s and Nikys’s 40th birthdays, without saying when in the year those birthdays occur. I might guess at some time aft..."
Dates are vague on purpose wherever possible, yes. Mainly so I don't have to make up day/month names across 3 (so far) language-culture groups. 4, counting the Ibran from the earlier books.
It's clear the calendars in the world of the 5 gods are solar, not lunar, with the holidays fixed to solstices and equinoxes, etc. the main stated dates in the tales, and I mostly use them when I need date-like things. But there's nothing that says the year there has to be 365 days, either.
Ta, L.
Lois wrote: “Dates are vague on purpose wherever possible, yes. Mainly so I don't have to make up day/month names across 3 (so far) language-culture groups…”
Thanks for the reply! Sorry, I didn’t think of all that, and I suppose I should have. Tolkien, funnily enough, explained the Shire calendar in Appendix D, but blithely ignored it elsewhere in “The Lord of the Rings”, and gave dates in our familiar calendar!
So Penric and Nikys were 39 or 40 at the time of this story, although their children were firmly 7 and 4, and Otta 6. None of them seem to have celebrated birthdays during the course of the story, so I suppose they were all winter babies.
In this world, the years seem at least approximately the same length as ours, and the seasons about the same too.
Jonathan wrote: "Lois wrote: “Dates are vague on purpose wherever possible, yes. Mainly so I don't have to make up day/month names across 3 (so far) language-culture groups…”
Thanks for the reply! Sorry, I didn’t ..."
Otta had a birthday...
So that's one I'll have to remember later.
:-), L.
Lois wrote: “Otta had a birthday…”
Oh yes! I should have remembered. A month before Mother’s Solstice: i.e. around the 20th of May in terms of our calendar. So she’s only some months younger than Rina, although the difference in age is apparently visible.
“Knot of Shadows” is set in early winter (late November/early December?), Rina is 3 and Wyn seems to be 0, the same age difference as in “Demon Daughter”; so I guess Rina and Wyn both have birthdays maybe in the equivalent of January or February.
Thank you, Lois, for another Pen & Des book! This one was an utter delight, going into detail about Pen’s domestic life - and just as much about demon theology (which makes perfect sense in that household).
The children also come across as very real children, both in their rapid language learning as in their play. “No barking!” :))
Thank you so much. I love the last two Penrics. I just reread them all so Knot of Shadows is fresh in my mind.
As a typo-noting-aside I have/found four instances of the string "yes, Des" in the Kindle edition that should be just "Des".
Paul wrote: "Thank you so much. I love the last two Penrics. I just reread them all so Knot of Shadows is fresh in my mind.
As a typo-noting-aside I have/found four instances of the string "yes, Des" in the Ki..."
I looked up your "yes, Des" -- they are all from Otta's or Nikys's points of view, when they are trying to process which person in that body is speaking at that moment, and confirming to themselves that yes, it was Des, not Pen, who just said that thing. It's a viewpoint-marker. Also to give a sense of just how confusing talking to him/her/them can get in moments.
Glad you are enjoying the stories! I'm certainly having fun writing them. (And watching them be read.)
Ta, L.
My slow re-read with stops for thought and processing has me now at the episode of the well. So interesting to see things from Otta's point of view. And watching Nikys knowing how to deal with a frightened child (and demon). We have seen Pen deal with frightened children (in orphans and also in assassins) and frightened demons (in assassins and masquerade). Watching Nikys and Pen (and Des) work as a team is interesting. Not "good cop/bad cop", at least at this point, but rather, differing versions of good.
The apricots are a nice touch. Something sweet and tasty and taking a bit of chewing to distract a hungry and frightened child.
I've been thinking a lot about Des actively keeping Pen younger looking (by keeping him as healthy as possible apparently). Could he also do this for Nikys? I would think Pen and Des would both also want Nikys to be as healthy as possible to give everyone the longest time together.
I can't wait to read the next book, based on the adventures of Otta, Rina, and Respighi, their new pal from the Lady school...
At about 73%
Nikys threaded her arm though his
I have to admit that the more time passed after Knot Of Shadows, the more I was thinking that your semi-retirement was being upgraded to full retirement. I'm happy for that not to be the case.
This was a lovely story. It was nice to see more of Pen's home life for a change. I'm also encouraged to hear that it seems to have sparked ideas for potential future stories.
I'm hoping Mr Gardner will be finding a task in his calendar at some point in the not-too distant future. 😁
Re: Talli - the comment about Des keeping Pen younger. I think if Des could, she would have begun already. I think what must be going on is some kind of deep cell-by-cell telomeres extension or cell-by cell riding of copy errors, or something like that. At least that's what springs to my mind considering what bits I know about aging. I think it is clear it is experimental, and it is probably something she can only do for Pen because they are so intertwined. On someone else, I don't think she would be able to reach so many places in the body, so often, to effect a noticeable difference. She probably does what she can, but Pen is in a position to benefit most. She is with him always, every moment. But not so with Nikys. I can't blame you for hoping, but I don't see how it could be made to make sense within the story universe. Des undoubtedly helps Nikys all she can, but ultimately Pen is going to get the most benefit and it makes sense that over the years that difference would begin to accumulate. Which is an intersting contrast to the typical results of sorcerers developing cancers. Maybe Des has some guilt to work off in addition to generally wanting Pen to last as long as possible. Which, logically, would make it seem she would still be most focus on Pen, and it makes sense it would also motivate her to help young demons learn to avoid the problem of inadvertently harming their companions. Which, now that I think it over, adds yet another layer of depth and connections to the story. So Brilliant!
Sandy wrote: "Re: Talli - the comment about Des keeping Pen younger. I think if Des could, she would have begun already. I think what must be going on is some kind of deep cell-by-cell telomeres extension or cel..."
Thanks, Sandy! Good thinking. That all sounds plausible and helpful to me, although of course only the author has authority over how these things work.
About Des working to keep Pen youthful/healthful, I remember in Orphans when the various pirates/slavers kept not believing that Pen was as old as he was in truth, it makes me wonder how long this has been going on. Of course, Pen's youthful appearance has been a standard trait of his from the beginning, if I am remembering correctly, so I hadn't given this much thought before.
Demon's Daughter is lovely, and Otta/Atto meeting the Saint and the God reminded me in a small way of Casarael's brush with the Daughter, although being totally different.
One question I had - it seems to me that in Paladin, demon-haunted animals had purple eyes, but in DD, the rat is described as having deep brown eyes. My patch on that is that in Paladin the demons were ascendant, but it seems to me that the rat demon had to be ascendant too in order to find Otta.
Another feature I am enjoying in this novella is watching Otta thinking figuring out what the scholarly Penric and "Miss Big Demon", as the Saint would say, are talking about!
And I was touched by Des's explanation to Rina of how Otta is feeling by comparing it to how Rina would feel if in a parallel situation. Pen thinks Des is too blunt, but I feel that Des does love Rina but is more realistic about how sometimes she needs the straight story, not something "suitable" for a child. Otta is even younger than Rina and is having to deal with idea that she might have caused the death of her family and everyone else on that ship, on top of everything else.
Otta is very intelligent, she figures things out, sometimes more quickly than even Pen would want! What a great character.
Talli wrote: "On my second read...
At about 64% along Pen is having the talk with Otta. He says "It would not be safe do so" missing the to.
I wondered about something else which is probably not an error but ......"
Also, the animals might be in "cream" which could look brown or white depending on how discerning one is to color nuances.
Lois wrote: "Talli wrote: "On my second read...
At about 64% along Pen is having the talk with Otta. He says "It would not be safe do so" missing the to.
I wondered about something else which is probably not an..."
We really don't know who noticed it.
Now about 38% through my re-read, and I was delighted to see Laxo and Symo again. They were a great addition to Knot of Shadows, and fit in well here. I pat myself on the back, as soon as Penric thought about inquiring for Otta's Dada's ship, I thought "this is a job for Laxo and Symo", not of course relying only on them, but something suited to their talents.
Nice of Pen to keep an eye on them.
Sandy wrote: "Re: Talli - the comment about Des keeping Pen younger. I think if Des could, she would have begun already. I think what must be going on is some kind of deep cell-by-cell telomeres extension or cel..."
This makes sense to me. Also, I don't know when these experiments begin. The entire idea seems very Penric to me, and I assume it is the portion of Des that has mirrored Penric that is leading this effort.
So far, I think this passage is my favorite, subject to changing my mind over time:
Nikys snorted: "The difference, dear Pen, is if you had thrown your daughter off a burning ship to save the lives of everyone aboard, you would have jumped with her."
"Well, yes. But I can swim."
Nice to know that Ikos has remained in touch.
The anti-aging bit might be the set-up for an apocalyptic finale several centuries later, when Blessed Ista is dispatched to take down the insane sorceror-emperor Penric....
>34 Honestly? When the anti-aging issue came up, I thought Pen and Nikys were oddly chill about it. Normally if there's one thing that I'd expect would set Pen on the warpath, it would be a breach of medical ethics (experimenting on someone without their permission is big on the list), nevermind the implication Pen will outlive Nikys and their undemoned children.
OTOH Crossover with Ista and/or Cazaril....
Royce wrote: “When the anti-aging issue came up, I thought Pen and Nikys were oddly chill about it … if there's one thing that I'd expect would set Pen on the warpath, it would be a breach of medical ethics…”
I agree that their reaction seemed pretty muted. Perhaps because the story is about Otta, and having a row or extended argument about an unrelated subject would have been a digression.
With regard to medical ethics, (a) this is a mediæval society, its medical ethics may not be quite the same as ours, and (b) the relationship between Penric, Nikys, and Desdemona is close and unusual, not a standard doctor-patient relationship.
At about 83%.
A frustrated return looked suggested
Should be look?
At 84%
found themselves in sorcerer's tower
Should be "in a sorcerer's"?
Bo wrote: "Nice to know that Ikos has remained in touch.
The anti-aging bit might be the set-up for an apocalyptic finale several centuries later, when Blessed Ista is dispatched to take down the insane sorc..."
Been reading Dune, have you...?
:-), L.
Talli wrote: "At about 83%.
A frustrated return looked suggested
Should be look?"
Yep. That's 3. Drat.
I'll see if any more accumulate before asking my e-wrangler to go back in over 4 platforms...
Ta, L.
Barbara Norwood wrote: "I can't wait to read the next book, based on the adventures of Otta, Rina, and Respighi, their new pal from the Lady school..."
I don't know the reference for "Respighi"?
Explain the joke?
Curious, L.
Talli wrote: "At about 73%
Nikys threaded her arm though his"
Isn't this a typo?
Lois wrote: “I don’t know the reference for “Respighi”?”
There was an Italian composer called Ottorino Respighi; perhaps his first name is the source of the joke: Otto-rino. I’m guessing…
Talli wrote: "Talli wrote: "At about 73%
Nikys threaded her arm though his"
Isn't this a typo?"
Yep. I'll add it to the list for future correction.
L.
Thank you for “Demon Daughter” on so many levels. Mainly because I spent Christmas break going on a Lois McMaster Bujold binge ending with “Gentleman Joel and the Red Queen.” I was so wishing to know more about their children, and about Lily and Nattie-Mari. In “Demond Daughter,” you partially fulfilled my wish, giving me hope that we will learn more about the next generation?
I found it a delightful story with lots of directions to lead future stories in. Not at all sure what to think of the image of Rina and Otta going on a baby-demon hunt on their own, so Rina can have one too, but that's certainly one possible direction.
A big help in times of trouble.
Lovely to see Iroki again, I loved the way he interacted with Otta and Atto (and the entire family). It started me thinking about how the Saint from Masquerade in Lodi would have handled the situation, but obviously she is too far away! And how she would get along with Iroki?
But those are just private fantasy thoughts. I loved the tale just as it is. Many thanks.
somewhere (in an answered question perhaps or comment?) Lois said the cover had been changed to address our various comments on it and invited us to compare the two here. I honestly could see no difference between the cover posted in her blog and what is currently on Amazon. Was that what I was supposed to compare? I hope it is not some failure to refresh something on my part or worse I missed whatever it was that changed.
Norine Luker wrote: "somewhere (in an answered question perhaps or comment?) Lois said the cover had been changed to address our various comments on it and invited us to compare the two here. I honestly could see no di..."
To clarify, the two images being compared are from my Dec. 4th preliminary announcement post, and the final image from the Jan. 9th (and elsewhere) post. The changes are slight, but I think solve a couple of problems discussed in the Dec. 4th comments. So as not to cut the game short, I'll let you all puzzle (or not) for a bit.
Ta, L.
Thoroughly enjoyed this novella, especially with Otta's point of view included. I had the nook version, which took a couple days to become available, and didn't notice any typos.
back to top
On my second read...At about 64% along Pen is having the talk with Otta. He says "It would not be safe do so" missing the to.
I wondered about something else which is probably not an error but ... When Pen is in the well his tunic is described as white with white animals embroidered on it. I feel like the animals were maybe brown in Orphans? Of course he might have several tunics in an assortment of animal colors.
Loved this delightful tale, starting on my first re-read.One early point that I enjoyed was that the demon/rat seemed to be able to open up the trap/cage that the cabin boy had her in, he complained it was the third time the door had opened.
And I also very much enjoyed watching the children play and draw together, with Pen/Des down on the floor with them, a charming bit of home life that helped set the tone of the story.
More comments to come.
I really enjoyed getting to see family interactions in this story. Many books focus on the before or maybe after of growing up/having kids, and few seem to cover family life, with young children particularly. If they do, it tends to be only from the kids perspectives (with virtually no parents), or only the adults. Here though we get views of both sides. I thought the opening was wonderful, seasoned readers could tell right away what was up, but a new reader would still have enough clues to know something was up even if they didn't fully understand until later. Of course, like any good story, I feel we are left satisfied about the ending but still wanting more. There are rich seeds for potential futures scattered all about it seems like. For instance a book about Rina and Otta and Atto's continued interactions as they grow. They seem to bond nicely as sisters, but jealousy over Atto could become a conflict down the line (and who doesn't fight with siblings even without such gaps in abilities?). Or O&A's 'apprenticeship' to P&D. I have only had a chance to read through once so far, but I was very intrigued by Otta's mother being from the same area as Penric. I wondered while reading if there might be some twist where we discover Otta is actually related to Penric somehow, or maybe even to his former fiancé. Which helped to keep me guessing about what would happen, even though it felt pretty clear that the most likely would be that Otta with Atto becomes the adopted daughter, the wished for 3rd child. Or perhaps it was just that was the most desired outcome and as readers we were not disappointed and given a very satisfying end. As for typos, I didn't notice much. There was a place, about 34% through, that said "While as troublesome as the loom to set up,..." Which seems to perhaps omit the word "was". And about 60% through (location 1208 or 2053 kindle version) it says " "Put that was, we still won't be traveling light." Which I was confused by "Put that was" and wondered if it had meant to be a colloquialism or if a word was in error perhaps. Also at 65% (location 1322) It says "How could she tell if Otta were ascended?" I felt it should have said "Atto", referring to the demon, and not Otta wondering how to tell if she herself were ascended. And those two or three things are all that I noticed on my first read through and I only mention because they do pull you out of the story world magic (well they pulled me at least) and hang you up on mechanics, albeit only briefly. Overall a very enjoyable story that really sparks the imagination full of interesting characters I can't help but want to get to know even better. I felt like in Otta and Rina we are only seeing the very beginning of a full and exciting life, and the foundation for characters to rival Miles should their tales one day be told. Which even if they aren't, and no future stories developed, having such a rich seed makes the story that much more satisfying and lovely.
A question in my mind is what happened to Lin? When the new maid was introduced I kept expecting to see a half of a sentence saying something like, "the family was getting Liva used to their ways, she had been hired when Lin left to marry . . ." or something like that. I know it isn't important to the plot, Lin was probably so used to strange things happening in this household that new staff members were needed to be surprised. But I do wonder what happened to her, and hope it was something like marriage or some fancier job rather than being run over by a cart on the way to do the shopping or some other tragic end.
I wondered what happened to Lin too, and like Jerri was a little concerned, guess it just shows how cozy we have all gotten with these characters. Fun story and a great reminder that the Bastard doesn't pay much attention to rules or what usually is done (as shown by giving a demon to a six-year-old and neatly inserting that six-year-old in a demoned household. ) Desdomena's maternal side was unexpected, because much has been made of how difficult it is for demons to co-exist, but not inconsistent, since much has also been made of how much she disliked demons being done away with. Also, delicious to speculate on the amount and variety of chaos a baby demon being mothered by a multilayered demon in a household with little children could cause. So thanks again for a great new story!
Sandy wrote: "I really enjoyed getting to see family interactions in this story. Many books focus on the before or maybe after of growing up/having kids, and few seem to cover family life, with young children pa..."The two typos you caught were real, but I caught them too on my first-day read-through, so if you re-synch your Kindle, you should find the corrected version, along with the map. (I just did.) The other vendors' files were put up after those two corrections (and the map) were entered and should be fine.
Otta-Atto was a proofreading nightmare, clever as I thought myself and Rina for thinking it up. "Otto" and "Atta" could be searched-for, but flipping the two names was really evasive to the eye.
If you knock out the two intervening clauses in the line about the loom/spinning jenny, you'll see that sentence is OK.
Rina's future is actually less clear to me now she's had more stage time to develop. Now I'm starting to wonder if her future adult calling may be as an artist, not a divine like her papa. (Or a fabric maker like her mom.) Little as she suspects it now. But yeah, having grown up in a family of 3 sibs myself, I don't imagine their future domestic life will all be conflict-free, however positive overall.
As you figured out, Pen and Otta's mom are unrelated -- their birthplaces are as far apart as western Switzerland and the northeast coast of Germany.
Glad you enjoyed the tale! It's got me thinking more about these characters' futures as well. It's a good sign when a new story makes a difference.
Ta, L.
Talli wrote: "On my second read...At about 64% along Pen is having the talk with Otta. He says "It would not be safe do so" missing the to.
I wondered about something else which is probably not an error but ......"
Sadly, that is a real typo. Drat. It may get fixed later, but given how many people never noticed it, it's probably not too urgent.
Pen's vestment embroidery is usually white, yes, but nothing says it can't be other things on other outfits. They are all hand-made by Nikys & Co., so lots of variation is possible.
The layout of Pen's house keeps shifting in my mind, as various tales have/have not needed details. If the upper floors are as I imagine, there ought to be a short hallway between the front door and the atrium, below those upper-floor front rooms. But yes, the atrium is open to the sky, something Canton-bred Penric still finds weird. Rain belongs outdoors!
Ta, L.
Jerri wrote: "A question in my mind is what happened to Lin? When the new maid was introduced I kept expecting to see a half of a sentence saying something like, "the family was getting Liva used to their ways, ..."@ Jerrie (and Noreen):
Lin indeed left to be married -- it was about time. I dimly imagine Liva was a younger cousin of hers, recommended upon that occasion. If Liva had developed a larger part in this one, that might have got mentioned -- I did think about it -- but, novella not novel. Focus needs to be tighter.
Ta, L.
I'm so happy to have a new Penric novella! I also kept wondering how Rina is going to develop with Otta/Atto "apprenticed" to Pen and Des. Thank you for the book. Oh yes, i loved seeing Iroki again too.
The text says, with perhaps deliberate vagueness, that this is the year of Penric’s and Nikys’s 40th birthdays, without saying when in the year those birthdays occur. I might guess at some time after the statement, but it seems to be already autumn when we get that information; were they both December babies? Or is this something we’re not meant to know? The date of the wedding anniversary is also left vague.I know these dates are arbitrary and don’t really matter, but they nag at me slightly.
Jonathan wrote: "The text says, with perhaps deliberate vagueness, that this is the year of Penric’s and Nikys’s 40th birthdays, without saying when in the year those birthdays occur. I might guess at some time aft..."Dates are vague on purpose wherever possible, yes. Mainly so I don't have to make up day/month names across 3 (so far) language-culture groups. 4, counting the Ibran from the earlier books.
It's clear the calendars in the world of the 5 gods are solar, not lunar, with the holidays fixed to solstices and equinoxes, etc. the main stated dates in the tales, and I mostly use them when I need date-like things. But there's nothing that says the year there has to be 365 days, either.
Ta, L.
Lois wrote: “Dates are vague on purpose wherever possible, yes. Mainly so I don't have to make up day/month names across 3 (so far) language-culture groups…”Thanks for the reply! Sorry, I didn’t think of all that, and I suppose I should have. Tolkien, funnily enough, explained the Shire calendar in Appendix D, but blithely ignored it elsewhere in “The Lord of the Rings”, and gave dates in our familiar calendar!
So Penric and Nikys were 39 or 40 at the time of this story, although their children were firmly 7 and 4, and Otta 6. None of them seem to have celebrated birthdays during the course of the story, so I suppose they were all winter babies.
In this world, the years seem at least approximately the same length as ours, and the seasons about the same too.
Jonathan wrote: "Lois wrote: “Dates are vague on purpose wherever possible, yes. Mainly so I don't have to make up day/month names across 3 (so far) language-culture groups…”Thanks for the reply! Sorry, I didn’t ..."
Otta had a birthday...
So that's one I'll have to remember later.
:-), L.
Lois wrote: “Otta had a birthday…”Oh yes! I should have remembered. A month before Mother’s Solstice: i.e. around the 20th of May in terms of our calendar. So she’s only some months younger than Rina, although the difference in age is apparently visible.
“Knot of Shadows” is set in early winter (late November/early December?), Rina is 3 and Wyn seems to be 0, the same age difference as in “Demon Daughter”; so I guess Rina and Wyn both have birthdays maybe in the equivalent of January or February.
Thank you, Lois, for another Pen & Des book! This one was an utter delight, going into detail about Pen’s domestic life - and just as much about demon theology (which makes perfect sense in that household). The children also come across as very real children, both in their rapid language learning as in their play. “No barking!” :))
Thank you so much. I love the last two Penrics. I just reread them all so Knot of Shadows is fresh in my mind.As a typo-noting-aside I have/found four instances of the string "yes, Des" in the Kindle edition that should be just "Des".
Paul wrote: "Thank you so much. I love the last two Penrics. I just reread them all so Knot of Shadows is fresh in my mind.As a typo-noting-aside I have/found four instances of the string "yes, Des" in the Ki..."
I looked up your "yes, Des" -- they are all from Otta's or Nikys's points of view, when they are trying to process which person in that body is speaking at that moment, and confirming to themselves that yes, it was Des, not Pen, who just said that thing. It's a viewpoint-marker. Also to give a sense of just how confusing talking to him/her/them can get in moments.
Glad you are enjoying the stories! I'm certainly having fun writing them. (And watching them be read.)
Ta, L.
My slow re-read with stops for thought and processing has me now at the episode of the well. So interesting to see things from Otta's point of view. And watching Nikys knowing how to deal with a frightened child (and demon). We have seen Pen deal with frightened children (in orphans and also in assassins) and frightened demons (in assassins and masquerade). Watching Nikys and Pen (and Des) work as a team is interesting. Not "good cop/bad cop", at least at this point, but rather, differing versions of good.The apricots are a nice touch. Something sweet and tasty and taking a bit of chewing to distract a hungry and frightened child.
I've been thinking a lot about Des actively keeping Pen younger looking (by keeping him as healthy as possible apparently). Could he also do this for Nikys? I would think Pen and Des would both also want Nikys to be as healthy as possible to give everyone the longest time together.
I can't wait to read the next book, based on the adventures of Otta, Rina, and Respighi, their new pal from the Lady school...
At about 73%Nikys threaded her arm though his
I have to admit that the more time passed after Knot Of Shadows, the more I was thinking that your semi-retirement was being upgraded to full retirement. I'm happy for that not to be the case.This was a lovely story. It was nice to see more of Pen's home life for a change. I'm also encouraged to hear that it seems to have sparked ideas for potential future stories.
I'm hoping Mr Gardner will be finding a task in his calendar at some point in the not-too distant future. 😁
Re: Talli - the comment about Des keeping Pen younger. I think if Des could, she would have begun already. I think what must be going on is some kind of deep cell-by-cell telomeres extension or cell-by cell riding of copy errors, or something like that. At least that's what springs to my mind considering what bits I know about aging. I think it is clear it is experimental, and it is probably something she can only do for Pen because they are so intertwined. On someone else, I don't think she would be able to reach so many places in the body, so often, to effect a noticeable difference. She probably does what she can, but Pen is in a position to benefit most. She is with him always, every moment. But not so with Nikys. I can't blame you for hoping, but I don't see how it could be made to make sense within the story universe. Des undoubtedly helps Nikys all she can, but ultimately Pen is going to get the most benefit and it makes sense that over the years that difference would begin to accumulate. Which is an intersting contrast to the typical results of sorcerers developing cancers. Maybe Des has some guilt to work off in addition to generally wanting Pen to last as long as possible. Which, logically, would make it seem she would still be most focus on Pen, and it makes sense it would also motivate her to help young demons learn to avoid the problem of inadvertently harming their companions. Which, now that I think it over, adds yet another layer of depth and connections to the story. So Brilliant!
Sandy wrote: "Re: Talli - the comment about Des keeping Pen younger. I think if Des could, she would have begun already. I think what must be going on is some kind of deep cell-by-cell telomeres extension or cel..."Thanks, Sandy! Good thinking. That all sounds plausible and helpful to me, although of course only the author has authority over how these things work.
About Des working to keep Pen youthful/healthful, I remember in Orphans when the various pirates/slavers kept not believing that Pen was as old as he was in truth, it makes me wonder how long this has been going on. Of course, Pen's youthful appearance has been a standard trait of his from the beginning, if I am remembering correctly, so I hadn't given this much thought before.
Demon's Daughter is lovely, and Otta/Atto meeting the Saint and the God reminded me in a small way of Casarael's brush with the Daughter, although being totally different.One question I had - it seems to me that in Paladin, demon-haunted animals had purple eyes, but in DD, the rat is described as having deep brown eyes. My patch on that is that in Paladin the demons were ascendant, but it seems to me that the rat demon had to be ascendant too in order to find Otta.
Another feature I am enjoying in this novella is watching Otta thinking figuring out what the scholarly Penric and "Miss Big Demon", as the Saint would say, are talking about!And I was touched by Des's explanation to Rina of how Otta is feeling by comparing it to how Rina would feel if in a parallel situation. Pen thinks Des is too blunt, but I feel that Des does love Rina but is more realistic about how sometimes she needs the straight story, not something "suitable" for a child. Otta is even younger than Rina and is having to deal with idea that she might have caused the death of her family and everyone else on that ship, on top of everything else.
Otta is very intelligent, she figures things out, sometimes more quickly than even Pen would want! What a great character.
Talli wrote: "On my second read...At about 64% along Pen is having the talk with Otta. He says "It would not be safe do so" missing the to.
I wondered about something else which is probably not an error but ......"
Also, the animals might be in "cream" which could look brown or white depending on how discerning one is to color nuances.
Lois wrote: "Talli wrote: "On my second read...At about 64% along Pen is having the talk with Otta. He says "It would not be safe do so" missing the to.
I wondered about something else which is probably not an..."
We really don't know who noticed it.
Now about 38% through my re-read, and I was delighted to see Laxo and Symo again. They were a great addition to Knot of Shadows, and fit in well here. I pat myself on the back, as soon as Penric thought about inquiring for Otta's Dada's ship, I thought "this is a job for Laxo and Symo", not of course relying only on them, but something suited to their talents.Nice of Pen to keep an eye on them.
Sandy wrote: "Re: Talli - the comment about Des keeping Pen younger. I think if Des could, she would have begun already. I think what must be going on is some kind of deep cell-by-cell telomeres extension or cel..."This makes sense to me. Also, I don't know when these experiments begin. The entire idea seems very Penric to me, and I assume it is the portion of Des that has mirrored Penric that is leading this effort.
So far, I think this passage is my favorite, subject to changing my mind over time: Nikys snorted: "The difference, dear Pen, is if you had thrown your daughter off a burning ship to save the lives of everyone aboard, you would have jumped with her."
"Well, yes. But I can swim."
Nice to know that Ikos has remained in touch.The anti-aging bit might be the set-up for an apocalyptic finale several centuries later, when Blessed Ista is dispatched to take down the insane sorceror-emperor Penric....
>34 Honestly? When the anti-aging issue came up, I thought Pen and Nikys were oddly chill about it. Normally if there's one thing that I'd expect would set Pen on the warpath, it would be a breach of medical ethics (experimenting on someone without their permission is big on the list), nevermind the implication Pen will outlive Nikys and their undemoned children.OTOH Crossover with Ista and/or Cazaril....
Royce wrote: “When the anti-aging issue came up, I thought Pen and Nikys were oddly chill about it … if there's one thing that I'd expect would set Pen on the warpath, it would be a breach of medical ethics…”I agree that their reaction seemed pretty muted. Perhaps because the story is about Otta, and having a row or extended argument about an unrelated subject would have been a digression.
With regard to medical ethics, (a) this is a mediæval society, its medical ethics may not be quite the same as ours, and (b) the relationship between Penric, Nikys, and Desdemona is close and unusual, not a standard doctor-patient relationship.
At about 83%.A frustrated return looked suggested
Should be look?
At 84% found themselves in sorcerer's tower
Should be "in a sorcerer's"?
Bo wrote: "Nice to know that Ikos has remained in touch.The anti-aging bit might be the set-up for an apocalyptic finale several centuries later, when Blessed Ista is dispatched to take down the insane sorc..."
Been reading Dune, have you...?
:-), L.
Talli wrote: "At about 83%.A frustrated return looked suggested
Should be look?"
Yep. That's 3. Drat.
I'll see if any more accumulate before asking my e-wrangler to go back in over 4 platforms...
Ta, L.
Barbara Norwood wrote: "I can't wait to read the next book, based on the adventures of Otta, Rina, and Respighi, their new pal from the Lady school..."I don't know the reference for "Respighi"?
Explain the joke?
Curious, L.
Talli wrote: "At about 73%Nikys threaded her arm though his"
Isn't this a typo?
Lois wrote: “I don’t know the reference for “Respighi”?”There was an Italian composer called Ottorino Respighi; perhaps his first name is the source of the joke: Otto-rino. I’m guessing…
Talli wrote: "Talli wrote: "At about 73%Nikys threaded her arm though his"
Isn't this a typo?"
Yep. I'll add it to the list for future correction.
L.
Thank you for “Demon Daughter” on so many levels. Mainly because I spent Christmas break going on a Lois McMaster Bujold binge ending with “Gentleman Joel and the Red Queen.” I was so wishing to know more about their children, and about Lily and Nattie-Mari. In “Demond Daughter,” you partially fulfilled my wish, giving me hope that we will learn more about the next generation?
I found it a delightful story with lots of directions to lead future stories in. Not at all sure what to think of the image of Rina and Otta going on a baby-demon hunt on their own, so Rina can have one too, but that's certainly one possible direction.A big help in times of trouble.
Lovely to see Iroki again, I loved the way he interacted with Otta and Atto (and the entire family). It started me thinking about how the Saint from Masquerade in Lodi would have handled the situation, but obviously she is too far away! And how she would get along with Iroki?But those are just private fantasy thoughts. I loved the tale just as it is. Many thanks.
somewhere (in an answered question perhaps or comment?) Lois said the cover had been changed to address our various comments on it and invited us to compare the two here. I honestly could see no difference between the cover posted in her blog and what is currently on Amazon. Was that what I was supposed to compare? I hope it is not some failure to refresh something on my part or worse I missed whatever it was that changed.
Norine Luker wrote: "somewhere (in an answered question perhaps or comment?) Lois said the cover had been changed to address our various comments on it and invited us to compare the two here. I honestly could see no di..."To clarify, the two images being compared are from my Dec. 4th preliminary announcement post, and the final image from the Jan. 9th (and elsewhere) post. The changes are slight, but I think solve a couple of problems discussed in the Dec. 4th comments. So as not to cut the game short, I'll let you all puzzle (or not) for a bit.
Ta, L.
Thoroughly enjoyed this novella, especially with Otta's point of view included. I had the nook version, which took a couple days to become available, and didn't notice any typos.
I have a few questions which of course are not coming to me as I type this. I do wonder about the layout of the townhouse. The main door seems to lead into the atrium. Does that mean one walks from outside into outside? It was great to see what some old friends were up to and I missed getting updates on others but I know you do that on purpose in case you write about them later. I now have a fear/hope? that Rina will go on a very serious hunt to find an elemental though she might struggle to kill the animal to get herself a demon. The jealousy factor could certainly cause some interesting sibling dynamics. It was great to see more of Nikys than we sometimes do even if not her POV. I really like Otta - very sharp for 6. Again, thanks for the wonderful present!