Robin P’s Comments (group member since Apr 16, 2011)

Robin P’s comments from the The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 group.

Yes, on the sarcasm, in both instances! Austen's wit is often subtle.

I have a feeling I mentioned somewhere that the scene with Lady Catherine and Elizabeth is paralleled later by a scene in Little Women with Meg and Aunt March. Once the young women are forbidden to marry the man they aren't 100% sure they want to marry, they vigorously defend their attachment.

Neither Lydia nor Mrs. Bennet learned anything during the book. They both think the marriage with Wickham was a happy ending.

Well, swingers would have fit in - the Regency was not a puritanical period, at least among the gentry and royals. My understanding is that was why Victoria insisted on strict morals for her family, and thus for the country.

What are the odds that Wickham will be faithful to Lydia??

I think everyone today got a message from GR about removing links to outside sites (also direct messaging which is a huge deal in some of my other groups but not a problem here,) That would mean no more posting the wonderful illustrations or linking to articles outside GR. They did this a few years ago and there was a workaround but this time, who knows? Illustrations and other materials are a great contribution to discussions like ours.

Welcome! this has always been an international group, which really enriches the discussions.

The "small world" thing was common from 17th to 19th century authors. For instance, Dickens has characters appear in odd places, turn out to be related, etc. This was considered not a weakness, but a strength, being able to tie threads together.

Obviously, Wickham wouldn't marry Lydia because she has no money. But I think it's not so unlikely that he would run off with her. I'm sure she threw herself at him blindly and eagerly. Lydia's innocence and generally romantic notions of life would lead her to believe anything he told her. The idea that he would be getting back at Darcy is also a good one.

It's hard to imagine Lydia as a military wife in the regulars, she would hate "following the drum" on campaign. Many women did that, cooking and washing for the troops (as shown in the current PBS series on the American Revolution and found in a number of historical fiction books about the Peninsular campaign in this era.)

I agree about the proposals being glossed over. The only good thing is that readers get to create that scene in their minds if they wish. Mr. Collins' proposal is given in full, which shows how unseriously it is to be taken.

I had forgotten how much condescension Darcy puts into his proposal. Although he is extremely different in personality and life than Collins, both assumed Elizabeth would be thrilled to accept their offer. This is an interesting test for Elizabeth because Darcy is extremely rich and obviously intelligent, as opposed to Collins. She could never marry a stupid man.

The letter, while a too common device for advancing the plot in books of the period, is a good way for Elizabeth to be able to start revising her opinions. If Darcy had tried to explain that in person after the proposal, she probably couldn't have taken it in or believed it. Her willingness to reconsider shows a growing maturity, as several of you have said.

Abigail wrote: "I’ll speak up for Fanny—she may have good judgment, but she has other faults to wrestle with, anger and jealousy prominent among them. But in general the dynamic of MP is very different because of ..."

That's why I like Emma, because I have the same faults!

I'll be leading the discussion on Emma in a few months!

Abigail - I totally agree with this

She has to acknowledge herself misled by the appearance of goodness. This is an important step in the development of many Austen heroines—facing their errors about others, which have led to errors in their own behavior, and correcting them as an exercise of conscience and justice. This is how they earn a happy ending.

This is why I am bored by Fanny Price in Mansfield Park. She has no wrong impressions to correct, and Emma is my favorite because she has so many!

My understanding is that turbans were a headdress option around this time.

Thanks for all the images!

The conversation between Elizabeth and Darcy at the piano is so erudite - Did people really talk like that? We have so come down in the world, especially in the era of texting!

Yes, I read The Clergyman's Wife but I had forgotten the title. I'll have to check out the other one. There are definitely books about Mary Bennet and Georgianna Darcy. There must be one about Kitty since she is such a blank slate.

Mr. Collins is the perfect clergyman for Lady Catherine, so happy to be condescended to, agreeing with everything she says, running his household as she recommends, etc. And Charlotte just adds Lady Catherine to the burden she knew she was getting into when she got married. I wonder what will happen when there are children and Lady Catherine dictates how to raise them. It seems that Charlotte's home was loving, though somewhat ineffectual, and she will undoubtedly care for her children, since Collins gives her little scope for that.

That's a great thing about Elizabeth, is that she thinks she is always right, and she often is, but not always. This makes her more relatable. How many of us have had to revise our opinion of someone (up or down) as we got to know them better?

Elizabeth is not a typical romantic who will swoon over a man, but she refuses a cold marriage of convenience. Even if Wickham were a better person, I'm not sure he would satisfy her, he is shallow, it's all surface charm. Darcy has no surface charm, but we begin to see there is more going on underneath the blank exterior.

Collins' assuming a woman who says no is just being modest is a link to the discussion between Jane and Charlotte about how much a woman should show her interest in a man. She can't be too forward, but if she is too reticent, it might discourage him. (view spoiler)[ This is what Bingley thinks, or what Darcy makes him think and it drives him away (hide spoiler)].

Elizabeth isn't interested in playing games like that.

I wonder what would have happened if Collins showed up before Bingley and proposed to Jane. Would Jane have been too nice to turn him down, and sacrifice herself for the good of her family?

There is a contemporary comment above about how Jane should have married Darcy. He would be nice to her but bored. However, in real life, I think the Darcys do marry the Janes. They know they are superior and like a wife who lets them have that position always. From my many years of reading romances, historical and modern, I think the fantasy women find in them is not that they will find a man to rescue them, but that they will find a man strong enough to stand up to them. If anything, this would have been more true in Austen's time, when women were shut out of public life and higher education. Men didn't expect, or often didn't want, a wife who would discuss intellectual topics or question their ideas.

Jane is repeatedly shown as being too unwilling to find fault, giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. Elizabeth has quick judgments of people and finds it hard to change them (the prejudice of the title.) In this way she is like Emma Woodhouse, sure she is right about everything. This gives her room to learn and grow, while the other sisters have no arc of development - Jane stays sweet, Mary stays pedantic, Lydia stays obstreperous, and Kitty stays mostly invisible.

There is no way Wickham would seriously consider marrying any of the Bennets, since they have little money and the property would go to Collins. He recognizes in Elizabeth a kindred satirical spirit, the understanding that most of society's practices are a kind of game. It's also hard to imagine Elizabeth marrying a soldier. She isn't blinded by their uniforms the way her younger sisters are, and that life wouldn't appeal to her.

The sister who really gets short shrift is Kitty. She is the follower of the younger Lydia and we know nothing else about her. Of course there are modern retellings that focus on the other sisters, as well as on Darcy's sister.

One of the TV productions (not the Colin Firth one) really made it clear that Darcy was shy/introverted (maybe today he would be diagnosed as "on the spectrum" since he's not good at understanding how he comes across to others, and doesn't see why he should care about that.) Later, when he gets a chance to talk about something that interests him (fishing) with another man, he is suddenly engaged. Wickham is more on the narcissism scale, great at charming people for his own ends. (view spoiler)[He wants people to like him and when his motives are revealed, he takes off for a new place/group/occupation. (hide spoiler)]