Denise’s Comments (group member since Mar 07, 2013)

Denise’s comments from the Silmarillion Discussion group.

I laughed when I got to the end. It's the most condensed recap I've ever heard of the war of the ring. I don't know why we read and re-read the 1000+ pages instead. :)

Actually, some thoughts (hopefully not including spoilers). I did very much get used to the language and it wasn't a barrier at the end.

These stories tend to be more dense and hint at longer versions, but it's only the final recap that we know the complete longer version for.

I'll read this again and be less intimidated. I don't "know it" by any means at this point but I am glad I read it.

SEP wrote: "Denise wrote: "Oh, and I still don't think Tolkien ever did like Feanor. I just don't read the comments as positive."

I don't think he did either. I think he was careful to not take an 'editorial..."

Well, and later there's a comment about how the "marring" of Feanor was among the ugliest works of Melkor. So the fact that he could have been so much more was a great tragedy, but he made some pretty rotten choices.

Oh, and I still don't think Tolkien ever did like Feanor. I just don't read the comments as positive.

A few ideas on your comments…

Ea vs Aman vs Arda... I think "Ea" is the entirety of creation. Arda the planetary world (i.e. not the heavens) and Aman was once a continent on Arda but eventually removed therefrom and became "the Undying Land" of the Valar. It's my understanding that this was separate and apart from Arda after that move. (off the flat earth?)

Also, re Aule and the dwarves, his immediate surrender of them reminds me of the story of Abraham and Isaac. A total trust in one's Lord to make it a good thing. And I think that's why Aule wasn't considered to have "sinned". Or at least he was completely forgiven, if that's the right term.

I find it interesting how the elves in this book differ from those in LotR. For one thing, they've obviously gained some wisdom from their long troubles. But for another, LotR is written from the perspective of the hobbits, and they see the elves as much wiser and more serene than a complete history would indicate.

I'm actually enjoying the stories very much. What makes my head hurt is trying to fit some of them into their proper context. The constant name changes don't help.

I suppose you're right, but I certainly felt an undercurrent that smacked of disapproval.

Oh, I love that

Tolkien certainly quotes Scripture at times, by phrase if not wholecloth. Christopher says his dad's constant rewritings of the pieces of Silmarillion were definitely trending more theological as his life went on. So perhaps his quarrels with Lewis over how closely one's fiction should/could fit with one's personal beliefs would have seemed less important as he approached later years.

He also suggests that Elves may envy men their easy exits. If death can be considered easy. But while elves know their destiny, "no one knows" where men are going after death and that has its appeal.

I love the quotes you threw out. I expect I'll come back to nibble at some of them.

And this is where it is supposed to become interesting. *crossing fingers*

I must say, I can certainly see why no publishers wanted to buy the book, lol. I think this shows why the LotR seems like such a work of genius. If being prepared lets you make things look easy, this book certainly was thorough preparation! ;)

(disclosure: this note written when I was 27% through the entire book)

So please invite anyone you know is interested

So, it's pretty obvious from Christopher Tolkien's comments in the foreword that making this book into a coherent whole was a goal he gave up at some point during the process of bringing it to publication. His dad had always been updating and changing things, but the various threads didn't stay in sync — either with each other or with his other books.

So it's no surprise that lots of people (i.e. US) haven't found it engrossing.

There's an index of names near the back. One of the problems is that a character may have multiple names. I *think* this mostly depends on who is speaking of them (as in, they call themselves one thing, the Elves call them another, etc.)

In fact, for this book it might not be a bad idea to include spoilers since ANYthing that draws us in is probably a good idea. :)

I certainly don't mind about spoilers. I invited you guys and Squigs (though she apparently didn't show up yet). I don't know who else is interested, so I didn't make it private, but I didn't know who else to invite. I made you both moderators so you can invite anyone you think might be interested. Obviously, there's no need for multiple feeds if it's just the three of us, lol.

the first of these is the bit about "the music" and overall picture, and the second seems to be "the begats". Hopefully we'll be able to pick out the relevant parts and gloss over the rest. They comprise approx 42 pgs between them.

I'm setting up threads, but I'd like to know from you guys how long you would like this to take.

This thread is to discuss the Foreword, Preface, and letter from JRRT to Milton Waldman. That is, everything up to the beginning of Ainulindalë. I believe that covers approx 38 pgs. Or we can skip this thread entirely. I'll start another one for the next two sections but I thought the way the book is laid out that we could split up the topics like this.

Now, now, this discussion isn't about gluttons for punishment. We are here to find an appreciation for new things! ;)