Score

I love the idea of this list, but it could use some major cleanup. I see a whole bunch of middle grade and adult novels.

There is already a list for YA and middle grade (inclusive of both) without romance, so I think any books marketed as MG and/or with characters younger than high school (age 14) ought to be moved there....

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/3...

Ok, I decided to do some cleanup on this list.

Removed....

Denali Skies (NA)
Knot in Time (NA)
Hatchet (middle grade)
This Is Not a Game (adult)
Mistwood (this has romance)
A Measure of Disorder (middle grade)
Kiki Strike: Inside the Shadow City (middle grade)

If anyone else sees something that doesn't belong, please make a note in the comment section so it can be removed.

This helped me create a book display at work. Thanks! :)

I seem to remember The Book Thief having a romantic ending... :p ;)
I guess the 'threshold' here varies, eh?

I won't get into my usual "MG/YA arbitrary distinctions" rant, but - are we going by "YA" based on what Goodreads says? Most of my votes seem to have MG/Children's/Juvenile also listed, but they all say YA somewhere (or no genre given). That alright? How picky should we be? (If we're going by Rainbowheart's suggestion of 'high school age' and up, that's FIFTEEN YEARS OLD protags and up, yes? Or fourteen? Because high school depends on the country and whether or not there's a middle school system in place, etc.).

I need guidance. ;) Specific age parameters, specifically! :)

(The short version of my usual rant is that before the 70/80s, there was no YA distinction, and I read a lot of retro books. The other half of my rant is I jumped straight from MG to adult (Terry Pratchett, Douglas Adams), whose works, although listed as 'adult' are big favourites with the YA crowd. Shrug). XD

I added The Catcher in the Rye even though Holden goes on a "date" or two, because there was nothing romantic about them.

SamSpayedPI wrote: "I added The Catcher in the Rye even though Holden goes on a "date" or two, because there was nothing romantic about them."

Glad you added it and I just voted for it.

Hatchet is still on.

I might question Number the Stars, too.

I'm sure there are some I could add that would fit, if only my brain worked. I'm thinking classics like maybe The Black Stallion for example.

Cheryl wrote: "Hatchet is still on.

I might question Number the Stars, too.

I'm sure there are some I could add that would fit, if only my brain worked. I'm thinking classics like maybe [book:The Black Stallio..."

See, this is my problem! I voted in Number the Stars (and I get your questioning, and I see your point, and I don't dispute it!), but here's why I added it:

"Genres: Historical Fiction Young Adult Fiction Classics Childrens Historical Middle Grade"

So I will happily remove it, but I really want some discussion/clarification on what specifically consistutes YA, because I'm confused, and apparently so is GR. XD (Does anyone know what parameters GR uses to define this?!).

I'm probably being pedantic, I know, but I'm a scientist. And if there isn't a rigorous, specific criteria I can refer to, then... ?

My gut feeling (but not based on any librarian or bookseller knowledge) is that a year range of the main character is the safest and clearest way to go, i.e. protags 15 years to 19 years old.. but I strongly feel that a definition is required, for reference. And if there are different systems, then "YA, as determined by _______ 's definition" might be helpful.

(AR Bookfinder was used to determine if a middle grade book was appropriate or not in a MG Read-a-thon I took part in. That worked alright, though you had to check each book to see its rating, and for most of mine I had to use the UK site, which has a different designation (no grades, so no 'middle grade'!) and we agreed upon an equivalency..)

GR's tags are crowd-sourced from readers. (Unless something has changed but I cannot imagine that happening.)

This is a subject too human for rigorous science. "According to" could work... if there were a universal source... Does WorldCat tag books for age level? Or maybe, where does a large library like NYPL shelve a book?

I get this question often and have never found an answer ppl like. Unless you want me to be the arbitrator. ;)

Cheryl wrote: "GR's tags are crowd-sourced from readers. (Unless something has changed but I cannot imagine that happening.)

This is a subject too human for rigorous science. "According to" could work... if ther..."

I'd personally be very happy with you being the arbitrator! XD But I suppose that's up to the list creator. :) I'd go with it!
Aha - well, that would explain why all the votes I gave had genres of children - middle grade - YA..... :) Thanks, Cheryl! (I'm taking "Number the Stars" off now). ;)

(No, WorldCat is pretty useless that way... can't even search by published country or publisher)*
*EDIT, 31/03/24 - you can search by country of publication (cp=) and publisher. But not YA/MG, etc.

It's always a gray area! It should probably be up to the list creator, but I don't know if Erica is still active on Goodreads.

For example, Number the Stars is a children's book. The characters don't have romances because they're 10 years old, too young in any culture for dating. Books where the characters are a little older could be more of a gray area. Jonas in The Giver has just turned 12. I'd still say that's too young to date, but some kids are romantically involved at that age. In Jonas's case, the kids in his society have to start taking pills when they hit puberty to stop sexual feelings.

So then, "young adult" is necessarily post-pubescent? No wonder that's hard to pin down... that's a range. ;)
But then using this criteria would make it hard to vote on this list, right? Because you'd have to know 1. What's up with their junk, and 2. Why mention that unless it was relevant (use of junk). XD
Nevermind me and my comments - I am just perpetually confused on this front. :D I've learned a lot from this discussion, though!
AND, I'm happy to have any of my votes that don't sit right with whomever is doing the editing be erased. ;) (I appreciate the link to the other list, btw, Rainbowheart - no grey areas for me there!) :)

Muddling the waters even more, YA in England seems to encompass younger ages than YA in the US.

In the US, if you go to the YA section, you would expect to find characters 14 and up. I have seen British posters use that designation, though, for middle grade, kids in the 8-12 range.

Ack, too confusing....

Rainbowheart wrote: "Muddling the waters even more, YA in England seems to encompass younger ages than YA in the US.

In the US, if you go to the YA section, you would expect to find characters 14 and up. I have seen B..."

YES! Thanks!! This is validating! I live in Europe (Switzerland), and for sure "YA" = TEEN, and 12 year olds are sneaking into that...! :)
You know what? I give up. XD

The fact that people are putting middle grade books on this list just shows how hard it is to find books with older teenage characters that do not have romance. Also, the line can be a bit blurry.

Grace wrote: "The fact that people are putting middle grade books on this list just shows how hard it is to find books with older teenage characters that do not have romance. Also, the line can be a bit blurry."

It's utterly arbitrary and doesn't really exist outside of the U.S.A. (and relatively recently, too - earlier teen books didn't make such distinctions). ;) This is my understanding from a Euro-centric viewpoint of the system:

Middle Grade - younger kids and teens
YA - teens with sex/sex-appeal/sexual pressure

So as soon as you exclude 'romance', it gets very fuzzy indeed. 14? 15? 16? for YA, then? Kids grow and mature at different rates, too - very individual... I just had a look on Wikipedia for "age of consent" globally (varies), but it looks like fourteen and up is about the average of the lower end. So... 14+?!

There are Italian books with sexually active 13 year olds, so... it's quite limited to the cultural morays of the U.S.A. and censorship there. Confusing to me - I'm sorry if I've contributed to the blurriness!

(How would you ideally define YA when it doesn't include romance, Grace? :) An age cut-off?)

As before, for Cheryl and Rainbowheart and all, feel free to prune the crap out of my votes. :) Hack away! I don't have a good sense of the (again, very American) distinction - it really doesn't translate well cross-culturally. :S

(Don't even get me started on viewer ratings and censorship in film across the Western world... murky!)

I can't post a link, but the best website I've read discussing this, at length, is "the novelry" - search "What Is Middle Grade Fiction and How Is It Different from YA?"

Has The Giver as a solid YA, and gives some solid reasons for backing that up. ;)

Most telling line: "Kids often read about characters who are slightly older than they are, and you don’t want it to feel too babyish for 14-year-olds or way too grown up to 11-year-olds."

Basically, 16 year olds want to be grouped with 18 year olds and not 14 year olds. ;)

(At a glance, without considering 1. Romance/Sexual Content, 2. Violence, 3. Mental Health challenges, then middle grade is 8 - 12 years, YA is 14 - 18, and the poor 13 year olds are stuck in no-man's-land)