Coursera: Fantasy and Science Fiction (Summer 2012) discussion

How is this book going for people? This was the book that introduced me to SciFi so I have a special place in my heart for it.

Any great observations so far?

Eugenics and criticism of it, IMHO. I read the first two books of "Pellucidar" before, so I kinda compared the plots too... very alike, but not exactly.

I'm about half-way through. Are any of you in the Vaginal Fantasy Hangout book club too? Cos there's a story in this month's Cthulhurotica pick which I'm convinced is based on Princess of Mars. Also I can see lots of bits and pieces which Futurama has used or nodded to...interesting.

So I'm kicking around an idea for my essay on this that has to do with the nakedness of the people. It's mentioned but never made a major point. It doesn't seem to be connected with the Eden myth because the people aren't innocent, though they aren't 'aware' of their nakedness.

So I'm wondering if it could be connected to their honesty and kind of a 'they have nothing to hide' way of living. But I'm not sure there's enough here for an essay.

They do have furs and silks for sleeping. That suggested to me it just wasn't necessary to wear clothing for any reason other than status ("wearing metal") because of the weather conditions...it never mentions rain, wind or cold.

I have an idea that Burroughs put it in at the beginning for sensationalism - to get readers interested in the serial - then conveniently forgot about it for the rest of the book.

Or perhaps it's just a way to show that what is appropriate to one culture, might seem ridiculous to another - a basic law of anthropology, in certain way.

Xiri wrote: "Or perhaps it's just a way to show that what is appropriate to one culture, might seem ridiculous to another - a basic law of anthropology, in certain way."

Yeah he might have done it just to point out the foreignness of all the people. Again, that's not really enough for an essay so I better come up with something else. :)

Jute wrote: "Xiri wrote: "Or perhaps it's just a way to show that what is appropriate to one culture, might seem ridiculous to another - a basic law of anthropology, in certain way."

Yeah he might have done it..."

There should be plenty, good luck :)

Okay... I hesitated on posting this here for a variety of reasons... but I figure if I do maybe I can get some feedback before the deadline.

Here's what I finally wrote:


In The Princess of Mars the author uses the Green Martian society to illustrate the undesirability of socialism as a way of life.

The Green Martian culture has almost everything held in common with no private ownership of things. In their social structure the highest ranks are held by the males who fight each other for the position and items from a defeated Green Martian are passed along to the winner, along with all females and children. Children never know their parents but instead are held in common and raised by whoever has 'caught' them. The lack of a single family unit seems to be one of the crucial factors in the Green Martian psychology.

John Carter finds that this communal arrangement has led to the Green Martians having no concept of love, loyalty or friendship. The exceptions to this are Sola and Tars Tarkas. We are shown the difference in these two comes from their break from the traditional ways of their tribe. Tars Tarkas falls in love, something no one else in the Green Martian culture has done. His love has far reaching consequences.

The product of his union with his beloved is Sola, who unlike the other Green Martians, is capable of gentler feelings. Unlike all other children, Sola was raised by her mother for the first part of her life. Her mother showed her love, even sacrificing her life for her daughter and her lover. Since the major difference between Sola and other Green Martians is her upbringing, we are led to believe the socialistic structure is responsible for the lack of feeling we see in the others.

Burroughs uses this dichotomy between the unfeeling tribe on the one side with Tars Tarkas and Sola on the other to show socialism in an extremely negative light.

I would have focused on the old roots of the communist models, too, or racial tolerance in the book (Red Martians are a mixed race, pretty much). Or how Green Martians are pretty much Spartans in many ways.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communis... - again, bear in mind the Plato and other Greek sources. Also, have you noticed how he criticized the Romans as well?

Instead, I just focused on how Carter was against the eugenic practices...

Jute wrote: "Okay... I hesitated on posting this here for a variety of reasons... but I figure if I do maybe I can get some feedback before the deadline.

Here's what I finally wrote:


In The Princess of Mars ..."

The only bane I'd have wit this would be that the society to me felt more like a communist one, not a socialist one. There is quite a difference between the two. Of course, I could be wrong.

Nodding along here! I thought it was interesting that Burroughs didn't go for the obvious symbolism of red Martians = Commies, but made them green instead...was red not associated with communism so strongly at the time?

Looking for historical influences is interesting too - according to Wiki there was a big shift in thinking about the "nuclear" family and how to deal with orphan/vagrant children (check out the Orphan Train, brrr) plus the influence of eugenics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoption - all at about the time Burroughs was writing.

I used socialism because at one point in the book that's what John Carter calls the way they hold items.

Thank you very much for your comments!

Caroline wrote: "Nodding along here! I thought it was interesting that Burroughs didn't go for the obvious symbolism of red Martians = Commies, but made them green instead...was red not associated with communism so..."

Now that's interesting, thanks.

And yes, at least in my part of Europe, red was the color of it.

I've always thought of Communism = red too (UK here), but I wonder when that really came about in the American mindset, iyswim. Was it established before Burroughs, or was the colour more related to Native Americans as "the redskins" - and were his red Martians a romantic, "noble savage" idea, despite Carter's obvious hate and fear of the local tribes right at the beginning? Was Carter having an epiphany? Are the green Martians more like old Europeans with the hero American in the middle as a perfect synthesis or peace-maker?

I think I'm getting that last bit from something I've read recently, maybe the HuffPo article someone linked on the forums.

To me the Red Martians are more like the classic Europeans or perhaps frontiers - there was a mentioning somewhere, at least on wiki, but elsewhere too, of the frontiers vs Native Americans ideals and themes of the time.

Green Martians are certainly more like Native Americans, however - replace the "veneer" of the looks and you will spot lots of stereotypes of them. The most telling might be the repetitive formula of "I said" or so, that had been used in certain novels regarding Native American speech (or at least that's how memory works... the guy who wrote about the headless rider, namely).

Also, there might be the "melting pot" of the USA for Red Martians, or if red was for socialism / communism, then the unity of all cultures was advised by the regime too (with certain consequences and biases, ahem). I am speaking mostly Marxism or Leninism, however :-s

I also wonder if anyone had written about John Carter's mysterious origins, now that would be interesting to read ;)