Miévillians discussion

A discussion thread for The City and the City

This one came along at the perfect time for me. I was (and still am) fanatic about good crime fiction and this book practically fell into my lap. The lack of squidiness did not diminish my enjoyment.

I haven't read it yet, but it's on my very short list. Can't wait to get to it.

Dan wrote: "The lack of squidiness did not diminish my enjoyment.
"

In retrospect, the lack of squiddity was the best part ;) (Is it obvious that Kraken disappointed me? No? Okay then).
For most of this book I was trying to figure out - is there a supernatural element to the cities or isn't there? I will not give away the answer except for that it left me quite satisfied and upped my respect for CM quite a bit.

I had to stop about 20% through and start again, when I realised I didn't know wtf was happening. And when I realised, omfg it was such an eye-opening look into how we choose to perceive the world. But of course its Mieville, that would have been enough for any other author but not for him - the seamless meld with the noir detective genre and that gritty almost Iron Curtain era.... it's wow, just gobsmacking wow.

my review is very brief: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/47...
I think I was to overwhelmed to write more coherently at the time.

Don't forget that this read is due to start on January 18.

I will post some reading notes when I return from holidays next week.

Many of us might also be reading Proust.

If anyone has any ideas about how to keep two reading projects like this moving at the same time, please post your thoughts here.

Who is good at multiple reads?

How do you manage it?

Welll, you read one the one day, or for a few days until you feel sick of it, and then you switch to the other one, until you are sick of THAT again, and then you switch back.

For instance, I finished the first novella of my Gene Wolfe over 2 days, which seemed a logical place to pause, and then did a day or two of non-fiction reading and a few pages of IJ, and now i really feel ready to go back to the Gene Wolfe again, but sadly RL is badly interfering with my reading time at the moment.

What if you don't get sick of the first one?

Sometimes, a book is like a relationship - the fact that you are starting to get sick of it is not a signal that you should look elsewhere, more that you should work a little harder on the one you've already got in your hands.

But I only ever read one book at a time and have trouble imagining the alternative.

Ian wrote: "Sometimes, a book is like a relationship - the fact that you are starting to get sick of it is not a signal that you should look elsewhere, ..."

...more that you should seek some kind of counseling?

Yes, sometimes it is your own fault, and sometimes it is the book's fault, and sometimes it is your own fault and the book's fault.

I suppose one should first try and fix what is your own fault, and then see if you still can't reconcile with the book, and if you're really sure you've given the book a fair chance, then i'd say rather ditch than torture yourself and feel angry at the book at the end, and end up giving it an angry review like i did with Hunger Games, and that book on History of English literature eventually.

However, Ian, i think you have totally misconstrued me. I didn't mean sick of it as in totally ditch the book.

Tell me honestly, if you told me that your favorite dish was clam chowder, and i subsequently made you eat clam chowder day in and day out--only clam chowder and nothing else; clam chowder to the exclusion of even drinking anything- you must just eat clam chowder all day long- and then the clam chowder started giving you indigestion, and your stomach became all uncomfortable and full--how long would you still be able to face clam chowder?

So, i'm not saying one should completely ditch the first book-- and if you don't get sick of it (there have been books that i could read straight through from start to finish- The Shadow of the Wind was my most recent one, IIRC, well, then that's good and wonderful, and you're lucky-- but if you're going to force-feed yourself on any diet, no matter how delicious, you eventually get fatigue for that thing, not so?

But drawing the analogy to people is not a good one, because at least a book is not going to rebuke you and chew pieces out of you when you simply don't have time to read it 24/7, is it?

Unfortunately, people can do that to you.

I think that's a fine example. I completely bogged down on my reread of Perdido Street Station, and you'll notice I didn't contribute to the discussion past something like the half-way point. I _will_ finish it, but I'm finding it much easier to read a few chapters and let them ferment for a week or so before reading any more.

I'm not normally one to ditch a book, especially now that I could use a bad book as an opportunity to write a one star review on GR.

However, I generally try to avoid books that mightn't be to my taste, so I've never had to throw a book against the wall.

I normally soldier through a book, so I can get it over and done with, sort of make the dissatisfaction as short-lived as possible.

Anyway, I often find that it comes good in the last third or couple of hundred pages, if it's a long one.

TCATC is likely to be a more engaging read than PSS, if you like the premise.

I guess my original question came from the fact that it was the reading of Proust that might suffer, especially as it is on a very defined timeframe.

I haven't read any Proust before or even had a quick look at the style, so I guess I'm a bit apprehensive about it.

Robert wrote: "Ian wrote: "Sometimes, a book is like a relationship - the fact that you are starting to get sick of it is not a signal that you should look elsewhere, ..."

...more that you should seek some kind of counseling?..."

I think you're right, Robert, but I'll probably need it more on the Proust site, given my concerns about it.

Ian wrote: "I'm not normally one to ditch a book, especially now that I could use a bad book as an opportunity to write a one star review on GR.
"

How lucky we are that books don't have feelings! I suppose it would be useful to remember that humans do have feelings, which is why i prefer to only bash on books whose authors are dead.

I don't like hurting people's feelings, and i despise the kind of person who is thoughtless of others' feelings, or worse, vindictive in that regard.

Like vegetables, books have feelings, too.

I'm excited to read this book! I tried over the summer to read it but it didn't happen. I check it out from the library and forgot I had it. I only made it through the first 30 pages before I had to return it.

My interest was rekindled by a few great reviews on the site:

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

This is a re-read for me. I read it just before GR and wrote my review from memory just after I joined.

I will re-read it for the Group, but I might try to finish it before the Group reading formally starts, so that I can have all of the section notes and comments worked out in advance.

An Overview:

I have a beautiful blue hardback.

It's 312 pages long.

I have broken the Discussion into Four Parts (reflecting the structure of the novel) and 12 Sections for Discussion, consisting of:

1. Beszel

11 chapters running from pages 3 - 117 (125 pages)

Four sections for Discussion

2. Ul Qoma

11 chapters running from pages 129 - 233 (109 pages)

Four sections for Discussion

3. Breach

6 chapters running from pages 241 to 307 (71 pages).

Three sections for Discussion

4. Coda

One chapter running from pages 307 to 312

One section for Discussion

Reading Speed:

We've currently scheduled almost six weeks or three fortnights for the group read:

Friday, Jan 18 to Thursday, Feb 28)

This represents 50 pages a week or 7 pages a day.

It also means four sections for Discussion per fortnight.

Most of us could read this amount suspended from a ceiling with the book upside down.

I have set up the folders for the Discussion according to the chapters of the novel, rather than the due dates.

I hope we would all agree that we should not be too prescriptive about our reading speed.

Hopefully, the aim is to have as many of the group finish the novel by the due date for completion.

Thanks Ian, will we be discussing the specific section for each fortnight only each fortnight? Or will people be skipping ahead?

Hi, Andrea, I would like to get input from everybody about this, especially Traveller and Richard.

With PSS, Trav was keen to limit discussion until particular dates arrived, which makes sense.

PSS was a much larger undertaking, and TC&TC is both shorter and easier (and therefore quicker) to read.

So the question is: should we hold back discussion?

What do you and others think?

Keep in mind two things:

* only nine members have committed to reading it now;

* Traveller and I have discussed the possibility of a poll to seek feedback about postponing the read because of its clash with Proust.

Any thoughts?

I want to make it clear that this is 100% Ian's baby. When you are a group leader for a read, that implies that you are 100% the boss when it comes to that read, and i'm afraid you have to work out your own headaches.
I am happy to try and give helpful input, Ian, but at the end of the day, the decisions are going to have to be yours.

Ian, I have made you a mod for purposes of this read in order for you to do your thing.

The same will be done for Nataliya when it becomes her turn, -in fact, i see no reason why it can't be done already.

If you want to add a poll regarding your own read event, go ahead- you can create polls, challenges, whatever you like--this group read is YOUR event.

I am just here to stand on the sidelines and cheer you on. :)

Commencement Date (January 18):

Given the relatively small size of the book and the number of members who propose to read it at this stage (about nine), I propose to proceed with the current scheduled dates (January 18 to February 28).

This might require some multi-tasking on my part, but I have to learn sometime ;)

If a majority of those who have signed up want to postpone the group reading:

* post here before January 18, and

* I propose that we accept the decision of a majority of those who want to read it to postpone, otherwise we proceed.

Alternatively, if a significant number want to put the issue to a poll, I will send out a poll to the entire group before the commencement date.

Discussion:

@ message 21, my current view is that:

* the aim of the group is to finish the book by February 28, if possible;

* there will be no fixed due date for reading any section of the book; and

* members can start contributing to a discussion on any part of the book whenever they want to.

I will change this or send out a poll, if a majority of those wanting to read it wants to do something different.

Hopefully, the experience of alternative methods of discussion will give us an insight into how to arrange future group reads.

Discussion Notes:

This is a re-read for me, and I hope to finish it and do some discussion notes for all sections this weekend.

This means that, if you've already started reading, the discussion can start now.

I'm good to go on the 18th

I've finished notes for all of the sections of the book.

They contain spoilers, naturally, so if you're concerned about them, don't look at a section in detail, until you've read it in the book.

The notes are memory refreshers, with some questions about key issues as I saw them, to initiate discussion.

However, they are not meant to be comprehensive, so please jump in with any comments you want to make or conversations you want to initiate.

There is a sly sense of humor pulsing through the veins of the novel, so I hope we can have some fun with the threads as well.

Enjoy your reading.

If you propose to read the novel with this group, would you mind indicating here when you might start and when you hope to finish.

Also, let us all know here when you do start and finish, so we can measure the progress of the group as a collective of individuals reading at their own pace.

Remember it's not a race. Comprehension and pleasure are critical.

The end date is purely driven by the start date for the next group read.

However, the closer we are to the schedule, the more all of us will get out of the discussion threads.

If you finish early, you are obviously welcome to join in when others start contributing.

ok, I started my reread yesterday during a boreing Red Hot Chili Peppers concert. Truly. Should finish in about a week or two, cos its a reread.

Live? Or DVD? OK, they are past their prime, but...Mind you, I went to sleep in a Midnight Oil/Ramones concert once. Not enough sleep the night before. Cocktail party, you know?

I'm also set to start this coming weekend, i'm aiming for Friday. :)

Live :-(
Also too loud to hear properly. Last couple numbers better, but rest pretty meh.

They don't have the BloodSugarSexMagik of old.

This is sadly true. Also less socks.

Or less filling. Maybe they don't believe in Santa Claus any more.

The Pink Lukewarm Bell Peppers?

ha!
anyway, we go to see Deep Purple next month. I hope I'm not disappointed if it turns into Middling Mauveish....

Red Hot Chilli Peppers were before my time, i think, but i do remember a song or two of Deep Purple's that i still love- i have a CD of them somewhere. You should take some pics/vid for us Andrea!

Ok will try.

Derek wrote: "The Pink Lukewarm Bell Peppers?"

Hot Pink?

Andrea wrote: "ha!
anyway, we go to see Deep Purple next month. I hope I'm not disappointed if it turns into Middling Mauveish...."

I flew in a plane with them once. I also saw them in 1974 when Tommy Bolin was the guitarist. Haha, I'm sure that was before some of our friends were even born.

Andrea, I saw Deep Purple with the La De Da's as their support. The guitarist was Kevin Borich who in the 80's did a great small theatre tour with Renee Geyer. One of the best nights of blues I've ever heard.

This is probably what I heard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ_X8V...

Because Kevin was born in West Auckland, I thought I'd add a version of him playing "Gimme Shelter" with Penny Ikinger on rhythm guitar and vocals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tcuaz...

I met Penny at Pure Pop in St Kilda one Sunday night.

Cool! thanks for the links. I'll let everyone know how they were. On some random thread of course.

Some Random Thread sounds like a nice name for a song.

Isn't this one random enough for you? Yet?

Ya its pretty random, but now that its rock concerts any posting of Deep Purple wont be random any more.

I think at the moment we've got 9 to 14 confirmed readers on board.

Would you like to introduce yourselves here, just so we know you're on board and who you are. Stephen M, why don't we start with you?

Also, if you have any friends who are nos or maybes but have the book, why don't you see if they want to have a crack at it.

It is short and breezy enough to be like a sorbet between courses.

Ian wrote: "Discussion Notes:

This is a re-read for me, and I hope to finish it and do some discussion notes for all sections this weekend.



Reread for me as well, so I'm taking advantage of my Kindle highlighting feature ... except I've highlighted nearly the entire first three chapters already :)

Speaking of multiple reads, I'm contemplating re-reading
The Big Sleep alongside this, to kind of soak in the "Chinoir" tub - love that term. Ian, I'm assuming you coined it since it was in the event reminder?

Anyway, introductions: I have a wide range of reading perferences, but mostly fiction, anything weird or sciency, and only in the last year or so discovered Mieville. TCATC was my first book by him, and instantly got hooked on his writing style - plus it helped I was a Chandler fan from way back. I'm thinking I will update my review of it after this, as when I first wrote it I was just getting involved in Goodreads but now find that most of you have set a very high bar in excellent reviewing!