The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of October 15 - October 21, we are reading approximately the first 55 pages of Caesar by Colleen McCullough. This series moves quickly so this should not be a problem. Also, we have the threads always open so folks can participate at any time as we move along and/or as you get caught up. This book even though it is part of the First Man in Rome Series can easily stand alone. You do not have to have read any of the other books to read this one.

The first week's reading assignment is:

Week 1 – Oct 15-21: pp. 1-55

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book is being kicked off October 15th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki Cline will be moderating this selection.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

Here is the link to the thread titled Mechanics of the Board which will help you with the citations and how to do them.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Here is the link:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations or other books either non fiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self promotion, please.

Here is the link:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...


by Colleen McCullough

Section Overview and Summary

Britannia: November of 54 B.C.: pp. 1 – 30

It’s Caesar’s second invasion of Britain. The eighty ships he used to cross from Gaul were wrecked in a storm and his men are doing their best to fix them so they can re-cross the Channel before winter. Caesar has received two letters from Pompey. He reads the one written in Sextilis (our July) first. It’s very chatty, as is usual with Pompey. He tells about Cato holding up curule elections for consuls and praetors on the grounds of rampant bribery. He also mentions the death of the poet Catullus, who had tweaked Caesar in a few of his poems.

Pompey’s wife Julia, Caesar’s daughter, is six months pregnant and isn’t doing well. Crassus, the third member of the unofficial triumvirate, is preparing for his invasion of Parthia – Pompey doesn’t think much of his military ability. But the juiciest part is about Cato divorcing Marcia, his wife, so that the eminent lawyer Hortensius could marry her. Caesar thinks Cato did it because he loved Marcia so much that his love had become a weakness, and Cato couldn’t bear to be weak. Others think it was for money.

But the second letter, written in September, is about Julia dying in childbirth and the baby dying a few days later. Caesar is devastated but doesn’t let anyone know about it; his close associates can tell something’s wrong, and they suspect Julia has died.

After an easy victory over the Cassi, Caesar sends half his army back to Gaul, assuming the ships which are in the best shape can come back and get the remainder. But a storm comes up which prevents their return, so Caesar packs everything into the more questionable ships, including mules, artillery, wagons, and supplies. Caesar’s famous luck holds and they arrive at Portus Itius safely.

Gaul of the Long-Hairs (Gallia Comata): December of 54 B.C.: pp. 31 – 55

The eight legions Caesar is commanding have to spread out around Gaul, since there aren’t enough supplies for them all near Portus Itius, on account of drought. During his previous campaigns in Gaul, Caesar had defeated the Nervii and Atuatuci, two of the many tribes in Gaul, sold the latter into slavery and sent their enormous pile of treasure back to Rome.

The profit from the sale of slaves was so great that Caesar would never have to worry about money again. Several letters are waiting in Portus Itius, including one from Brutus, declining to serve as Caesar’s quaestor, and one from Brutus’ mother Servilia, Caesar’s former mistress, with very little sympathy for Julia’s death.

She does mention meeting Caesar’s great-nephew Gaius Octavius and that she was impressed by him. His wife Calpurnia writes of the death of Caesar’s mother Aurelia not long after Julia’s death. There is a letter from his mother, but he burns it without reading it, along with Calpurnia’s and Servilia’s.

He goes with the 10th legion, his favorite, to Samarobriva, an oppidum of the Ambiani tribe which he had captured a while ago. He decides to have a proper house built since he’ll be there the whole winter. His current mistress, the daughter of the king of the Helvetii and former wife of Dumnorix, a prominent member of Aedui, is staying with him and has given him a son.

Hi Bentley and Vicki,
I just wanted to make a comment here about finding the books in this series . . only 2 of the 7 volumes are available in Kindle and iTunes format and I also believe in Nook as well . . . and Caesar is not one of them . . . only THE OCTOBER HORSE and ANTONY AND CLEOPATRA are available in digital formats.
I found the other 5 through a search at Powell's online as used paperbacks and my library has hardback editions.
I also wanted to ask Vicki if the maps included in Caesar are also used as reference in the other books in the series? The library edition had maps that were easier to view than in paperback edition so I scanned and printed them out for reference to use as I read and I enlarged them a bit for easier viewing . . . I put them in plastic sheet protectors so they can be reused.
Thanks for reading this . . .

On page 51 of my edition, in Servilia's letter to Caesar, she says (or McCullough says) "The most beautiful thing about having a philosophy... is that it enables its owner to find extenuating circumstances for his own conduct in all situations."

I thought this was interesting given this evenings American presidential candidates debate.

@Tomerobber, sorry they don't have an ebook version of our book. And regarding the maps, there are usually new ones in each book, which I believe McCullough drew herself, along with the pictures at the beginning of each section. I love the maps. I originally had paperback copies of the first 4 in the series, but was able to find used hardback versions of 1-3, mainly because the maps were better.

G wrote: "On page 51 of my edition, in Servilia's letter to Caesar, she says (or McCullough says) "The most beautiful thing about having a philosophy... is that it enables its owner to find extenuating circucircumstances for his own conduct in all situations."

I thought this was interesting given this evenings American presidential candidates debate."

Sounds like politics haven't changed much.

So basically, Caesar invented the book - the codex - before its time?

Thanks for the clarification Tomerobber.

Cheryl wrote: "So basically, Caesar invented the book - the codex - before its time?"

According to Wikipedia, "Julius Caesar may have been the first Roman to reduce scrolls to bound pages in the form of a note-book, possibly even as a papyrus codex." It was apparently mentioned by Suetonius in his book The Twelve Caesars.

by Suetonius

I like the way McCullough didn't start the book right at Caesar's side, but with the amusing mid-level functionary Gaius Trebatius Testa. I was surprised to learn that he's an actual historical figure, to whom Cicero had written letters while Testa was in Gaul.

Vicki wrote: "I like the way McCullough didn't start the book right at Caesar's side, but with the amusing mid-level functionary Gaius Trebatius Testa. I was surprised to learn that he's an actual historical fi..."

Yes. When I read the opening, it almost felt like a play, with the introduction of humorous secondary characters before the lead role comes on stage. I really enjoyed that introduction. I am also impressed with how McCullough fleshes out how she thinks Caesar would have reacted to the death of his beloved daughter and then his mother. It certainly is in keeping with what I have learned of him.

And I assume it is true that Brutus waited until Julia was dead before he committed to a marriage of convenience. I can almost feel the hatred toward Caesar building in Brutus.

I think Julia's death hit Caesar especially hard because he doesn't love many people. Probably the only ones are his daughter Julia, his aunt Julia (his father's sister and wife of Gaius Marius, dead for many years now), Lucius Decumius (a fictional character, the head of the crossroads tavern housed in the insula owned by his mother) and his mother Aurelia. Now all of them are gone.

Did anyone else actually tear up when they read that Aurelia died? The characters are so well drawn that I feel like a friend has died. I just finished The First Man in Rome last month, and I really enjoyed reading about Aurelia from the beginning, having gotten to know and love her from the other books. Now I'm disappointed we won't get to see her in this book, or hear her wise words. She was a truly great literary creation.
by Colleen McCullough

You are right, Cheryl, about Aurelia. What a loss - she was a fabulous character, whom one aspires to be like. Caesar's really on his own now.

I'm guessing McCullough included Rhiannon and her son to show that Caesar could indeed have more than one child. It's interesting that both Julius Caesar and Augustus only had one child each (a girl in both cases), although Augustus' Julia had plenty of children.

I feel as though I've walked into a dinner party in the middle. I've not read the first four books so it's taking me a bit to get up to speed. I really wish that the publisher had released all 7 books in an eBook format as it would make looking up all the unfamiliar terms soooo much easier! Every time I come across a word I'm not familiar with . . . it takes time to check the glossary or look it up on Wikipedia. In the eBook format all I have to do is highlight the word or phrase and the definition pops up without having to leave the page I'm reading. Oh well, so much for the whine . . . I really enjoy McCullough's writing style and this has spurred me to buy some other books about the Roman Empire . . . previously my knowledge was relegated to those massive Hollywood blockbusters made in the 50's and 60's.

Tomerobber wrote: "I feel as though I've walked into a dinner party in the middle. I've not read the first four books so it's taking me a bit to get up to speed. I really wish that the publisher had released all 7 bo..."

I had the same issue with Caesars Women, which was my first book. Using Vicki's amazing glossary helps a lot. She also recommended Caesar by Adrian Goldsworthy which is a terrific resource. While I don't have Caesar by McCullough as an ebook, I have a different edition which makes finding my place difficult sometimes but I have developed a great appreciation for McCullough.

by

by Adrian Goldsworthy

G, thank you for the flattering comment, but only some of the entries in the Glossary are mine. Bentley and Bea are responsible for many of them.

And Tomerobber, I hadn't been aware that ebooks were so useful. It sounds really great to be able to check an unfamiliar word or person right there on the screen.

I like the little story of the encounter between Caesar and the soldier raking the coals (when Caesar burned Pompey's letter about Julia). Apparently he really was loved by the troops.

I bought the Goldsworthy book as an eBook and it's in my Kindle reading app. I also have another one of his I bought as a paperback. I've read ahead in my other discussion group . . . so now I'll have some time to retreat into the Roman Empire . . . .

by Adrian Goldsworthy
by Christopher Scarre
by Anthony Everitt

Tomerobber, looks like you're keeping the publishing industry (both physical and electronic) alive and well. :-) I applaud your ambition.

I feel I have to apologize for not writing more about Caesar's military exploits in Britain, but they didn't really have any lasting impact, and truthfully, I'm not that interested in military history. I was impressed with his determination to get men, animals and materiel back to Gaul and not leave anything behind, even with many of his ships barely holding together.

After I'm finished with the print books . . . they'll be bound for donation to my local library . . . where most of my collected personal books have ended up.

I want to find a way to donate my digital rights of books I've bought to them as well. There's supposed to be some lawyer working on that I read someplace . . ;-)

I'm not particularly enamored of military history either . . but it has been interesting learning how Caesar managed the thousands of men under his command.

I also sent a contact us email to McCullough's current publishers, S & S and asked them why they hadn't released all 7 books in this series as eBooks instead of just the last two. Supposedly they'll get back to me within 48 hrs. - I'm not holding my breath.

I was able to get the publishers of another author's book that was released without any of the many photos he'd included in the hardback edition - in the eBook version. He contacted his publisher . . . and as a result the eBook was reformatted WITH ALL the pics included.

Sooooo, it never hurts to speak up . . . sometimes it does work.

Good for you Tomerobber.

Here's hoping your nudge to the publishers will work, Tomerobber. I'm sure there are others out there who'd like to get the books electronically.

Well it's getting more difficult to find copies of books that have not had a new edition released . . . My hope is that by being converted to a digital format this problem would be eliminated. Time will tell . . . .

Hello everyone! Sorry for jumping late in the discussion! I am so glad to be able now to follow at least one of this club's book discussions. From all your posts so far I can already see this will be very interesting read :)

Yesterday I've read the first chapter and about the half of the second. I haven't read other books in the series, so I was at first utterly lost for so many names and tribes mentioned in a matter of few pages, but I have feeling I'll get very familiar with them all before the end of the book :)

If I may, I'll say some points that intrigued me...

Does anyone consider the method with which Caesar crushed Atuatuci's rebellion terrifying? Although Caesar's reasoning seems flawless (from his point of view), this still sounds quite brutal for supposedly civilized nation as Rome was presenting itself to them.

The age differences between Julia, Brutus and Pompey confused me a bit. I have to take for granted that Julia truly was infatuated with Pompey although he was 25-30 years senior. But - Pompey's love expressed in the letters seems quite genuine and very touching. The fact that Brutus "patiently waited through more than ten years of betrothal for her to grow up to proper marriageable age", taken literally added even more to my confusion, before I have learnt on wikipedia they were of about same age. Although Julia didn't find Brutus appealing for whatever reason, I felt anyway sorry for him, for he married out of convenience and to spite his rivals only after her death.

Very sad was also the scene in which Caesar was burning his private letters, among which was his mother's, unopened one. Reading any of her words after her passing would have only hurt him more... Now I wonder, does somebody knows the answer - was that pyre of private letters some Roman tradition, or these were only Caesar's measures of precaution?

Amusing gossips about Cato and deals with his beloved Marcia, are fascinating in an odd way. How bizarre were Romans in that respect.

I apologize for this long post... I hope I won't talk that much later.

Welcome to the discussion, Zeljka. Don't worry about being "late" - here on the Internet there is no such thing as time.

I know what you mean about all the different tribes. We're really only being introduced to them in this book. I find it hard relating to them also. McCullough's map is some help, showing where they were located. As for the main Roman characters, you will soon become familiar with them all. I hope when you're finished with this book, you will want to start at the beginning of the series with The First Man in Rome - there are so many fascinating characters there that are no longer part of the story.

Julia's and Brutus' relationship was covered in the previous book, Caesar's Women. He always loved her and she accepted the betrothal and never complained to her father, but she actually dreaded becoming his wife. And was thrilled when Caesar broke it off and married her to Pompey. One wonders what might have happened if she hadn't died.

by Colleen McCullough

I find maps extremely helpful and refer to them constantly. I'm also glad I read The First Man in Rome before reading this book - knowing about the campaigns of Gaius Marius against the Germans helped immensely in following this book.

by Colleen McCullough

Thank you Vicky for welcome! And for that information about Julia and Brutus, very useful to know if not familiar with the background of that story.

I wanted to read the series from the beginning, but then I wouldn't be able to follow this discussion right now :) I hope I will go back to the first after finishing this book.