Miévillians discussion

From the start of Chapter 20, to the end of Chapter 22.

The action starts HERE.

In chapter 20, things are happening with the caterpillar and there's an extremely amusing bit about the steam-driven construct. I thought Mieville's Steampunk computers are absolutely hilarious. I don't know if anybody around here is old enough to remember about computers that worked with punch cards, but i can't help doubting that Mieville himself is old enough, so that makes their anachronistic features especially fun.

Chapters 21 and 22: What can I say. This is where things really start happening.

It's OUT THERE!

I'm not properly here yet, when does this section officially start? when is everyone scheduled to be here?

Andrea wrote: "I'm not properly here yet, when does this section officially start? when is everyone scheduled to be here?"

Trav', recommendation: at the beginning of each section/chapter, Indicate the "official start date."

Please only start when you're there with your own read! When you've read the contents of the chapters described in the thread title, or else you'll be spoiled.

Remember that we said at the beginning of the read, in the "preparation" section, that our group has vastly varying reading speeds, (as measured by the poll we did), and to avoid frustration for the faster readers, we will be opening the whole book in advance so that the faster readers can go ahead and the slower ones have only small sections of book to deal with per section (roughly 40 pages), so that when they open that section, they should have already read that part, and therefore it won't spoil anything for them if others have already posted there.

This is why I'm trying to say only the bare minimum in my little thread introductions, to give you guys leeway and space to write down your thoughts and interpretations.

This is almost half-way in the book, and is where we should be with our read at this stage, since the read was supposed to officially reach the end of the book just before 30 November. (An extra day or two to discuss the book as a whole, would be nice at the end.)

Another request/rec: we might all be reading different editions, but it would be good to know the pages of the section, so that I can just turn to the right page in the book.

Ian, what i had meant was that my pages and your pages might not be the same. Some people say that the book is 800 pages long for them, the version featured on the read is somewhere between 600 and 700 pages, and my own e-version, is 457 pages long.

So whose version's pages should we be showing? This is the reason i have been using chapters- they are really pretty short chapters...

Chapter 20 is page 153 in one of my versions, and it is page 274 (the version that is 825 pages long) in the other version i have; if that helps any. What page would chapter 20 be for you? Then i'll try and include those pages in my little intro every time, if they correspond with any of mine.

I agree it wouldn't be practical.

When I was a teenager I got to see the first computer at tge bank my Dad worked for. It took up one floor of a city block with reel to reel tapes spinning on the top of each 8' x 3' x 2' unit. There was one input slot for the punched out cards in front that conyeyed a series of O 1 statements. It was awesome and hilarious at the same time.

Annie wrote: "It was awesome and hilarious at the same time. "

This is a great combination!

Annie wrote: "When I was a teenager I got to see the first computer at tge bank my Dad worked for. It took up one floor of a city block with reel to reel tapes spinning on the top of each 8' x 3' x 2' unit. Th..."

You're right, you know- now that i think back on my computer history, those first computers that still used punch cards, were pretty large constructs, so i suppose Mieville's computers are pretty small in comparison. Oh, and the Earth ones used tape! I'd forgotten about magnetic tape.

Oh well, but this is Bas-lag, not Earth--we must always keep this very important little point in mind. Things work very differently on Bas-lag, even though some details still look similar to that of Earth's. ;D

Not to mention, that these are steam-driven computers in PSS, ha ha ha. See why i find them hilarious? So anachronsitic! And cute. :D

Oh, I remember the days of infinite do loops.

Traveller wrote: "[computers] used tape! I'd forgotten about magnetic tape. "

I will never forget about magnetic tape. My first job in the IT field was loading tapes at a monstrous data centre. I think we had 60 tape drives, and a constant stream of mount requests on the console. It wasn't the worst place I've ever worked, but it was certainly the most boring job.

Ian wrote: "Oh, I remember the days of infinite do loops."

No no no. Why computer science. Mieville, your book was great, but if it's going to spawn convos on the bane of my existence, I will have to adjust my opinion accordingly.

(Kidding.)

(Kinda.)

I can't believe the amount of paper that working with computers in those days entailed. Back then, it was as if computers were invented by the paper consumables industry.

Just for the sheer, unadulterated fun of it, Aubrey!!

Traveller wrote: "Just for the sheer, unadulterated fun of it, Aubrey!!"

You have a very twisted definition of fun, my friend.

Aubrey wrote: "You have a very twisted definition of fun, my friend."

BUT, OH...

(view spoiler)[...WHAT A PATTERN WHAT COLOURS WHAT INTRICATE THREADS THAT WILL BE WEAVE WELL AND PRETTY... (hide spoiler)]

Ian wrote: "Aubrey wrote: "You have a very twisted definition of fun, my friend."

BUT, OH...

[spoilers removed]"

Now that is what I call fun <3

the very best part was when the computer would spew out all its cards quickly flying all over the floor from its single slotted mouth. I laughed uproarously.

Aubrey wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Just for the sheer, unadulterated fun of it, Aubrey!!"

You have a very twisted definition of fun, my friend."

You don't find little computers running all over the show, driven by little steam boilers, fun? Confucius say you need to work less and play more, Aubrey!! I'd love to have a little robot to clean up my house for me, though admittedly the steam-driven part may be more fun in books than it would be in RL... :P

Traveller wrote: "Aubrey wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Just for the sheer, unadulterated fun of it, Aubrey!!"

You have a very twisted definition of fun, my friend."

You don't find little computers running all over the..."

Perhaps if you built it for me. I still shudder at the memories of programming.

Admittedly i find programming supremely boring too- especially at the lower levels that such a little Steam construct might require--but given the anachronism of Mievilles' world, who knows, maybe they have object oriented programming?
No, ok, i know. Who am i kidding? They still have punch cards, so no luck there... :P

..but that's what mechanical-minded people are for. There are those who actually enjoy doing mind-numbing tasks, and one could always bribe one of them to program one of your cute little constructs for you... XD

Actually robotics are very sophisticated, which is what makes the total incongruence of the steam and punch cards, coupled with the idea of AI, AI sentience and robotics so fun to me. I mean, in our world it wouldn't have been possible.

Trav, I'm not so certain whether steam and punch cards are that incongruous.

At a superficial level, steam is an early form of engine, while punch cards were used by an early form of calculator or computer.

"Punched cards" were used to operate the "Jaquard Loom".

The cards dictated or controlled a sequence of operations, in this case, mechanical, no less.

"Modern jacquard looms are controlled by computers in place of the original punched cards. Although it did no computation based on them, it is considered an important step in the history of computing hardware. The ability to change the pattern of the loom's weave by simply changing cards was an important conceptual precursor to the development of computer programming. Specifically, Charles Babbage planned to use cards to store programs in his Analytical engine":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard...

I wonder, therefore, whether CM's genre should more appropriately be called "Steam Punch".

Ian wrote: "Trav, I'm not so certain whether steam and punch cards are that incongruous.

At a superficial level, steam is an early form of engine, while punch cards were used by an early form of calculator or..."

Trav, what planet is this guy from anyway? Jaquard Loom? I mean everyone knows about the Jaquard Loom, right? How did we miss that?

Actually, on a more serious note, I believe that once upon a time some sewing machines used a similar technology to make patterns or embroidery.

Come on Ian, Jaquard Loom? You gotta be kidding me....

Heheh- no, i didn't mean that steam and punch cards together are incongruous, i meant that steam and punch cards are incongruous with the sophisticated programming that you would need to program artificial intelligence and cybernetic sentience into a machine, not to mention sophisticated (and fast) hardware.

Ian wrote: ""Punched cards" were used to operate the "Jaquard Loom".
.."

The Jaquard Loom is a manufacturing machine, something much more basic than a computer that resembles humans. It's basically like a huge knitting machine. I doubt very much that my aunt's knitting machine is going to start walking and talking and making plans to take over the world very soon.

You never know, though--maybe Jacquard looms could have decided to take over the world by smothering us all in fabric? ..or something... :)

I'm not saying that one couldn't probably build quite sophisticated computers with steam and punch cards-- but with much more sophisticated technology than that, we've only been able to make machines that have what resembles sentience--there are still no robots out there that can think and plan in the same way that humans do-- although some "human companion" robots are getting pretty close.

Here are some examples of the best we have so far: http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/ro...

Check out this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LH1Rl...

Creepy, isn't it?

..and of course the Japanese will be at the forefront- they seem to have a thing for robots:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zul8AC...

Hehe, they're having fun trying to confuse the poor thing...

..and as sophisticated as those machines may appear, they still don't have sentience, qualia, and reason in the same way that humans do. Of course, Mieville's robots don't have emotions, but it (the Council, in any case) has goals, and it is aware in a sense that is very humanoid.

I'm not saying any of this is not possible--especially not in Bas-lag, ;) ..but it appears incongruous to anyone familiar with the levels of technology that , in our world's history, went together with steam and then later, with punch cards.

Robert wrote: "Come on Ian, Jaquard Loom? You gotta be kidding me.... "

Haha. Can you tell I'm new to this Steam Punk stuff?

Ian wrote: "Haha. Can you tell I'm new to this Steam Punk stuff?"

Newbie maybe but I think you sure got the gist of things; I was just playing :)

Traveller wrote (comment 1): "...I don't know if anybody around here is old enough to remember about computers that worked with punch cards, but i can't help doubting that Mieville himself is old enough..."

I agree. My husband is 50 (9 years older than Mieville) and used punch-card computers only because his school was a pioneer in programming at school level. He never saw or used them at uni or thereafter. Given his academic choices, I guess Mieville's exposure would only have come through his own enquiries, as an adult. Nevertheless, I love the way he describes it.

The person who rewrote some of this Ladybird introduction to The Computer is certainly a steampunk, and maybe a Mievillian; see mentions of coal and steam on page 6:
http://boingboing.net/2014/06/03/how-...

I can't say I followed all the detail of crisis power (or Torque), but the steampunky computers have a charming plausibility for me. Perpetual motion, though...? Less so, but I guess it's essential for the plot.

But why did Isaac test it on cheese? Obviously it was to hand, but is there some deeper meaning? (It's Mieville; there must be.)

Lots more exquisite writing in these chapters, especially describing the caterpillar's metamorphosis and later, its view of the city, from above.

Fascinating link, Cecily! Hahahaha that's a hoot. One should keep books like that for the historical and entertainment value...

Regarding the cheese---because cheese is cultured ? :D (...and Isaac is a snob)

Cecily, I think it's obvious why Isaac used cheese: he had run out of bacon. ;)

Seriously, though, cheese does make sense: it's bacteria, life it all its aggressive, chaotic glory. I suppose he could have used yogourt, too, but I suspect he wanted solid results...

LOL. So this has become the comedy thread. ;)

Cecily wrote: "LOL. So this has become the comedy thread. ;)"

Though CM might groan at the personal attempts at humour, he would approve at least in principle, I'm sure. :P I think he wrote these Steampunk meets cyberpunk scenarios with a twinkle in the eye and a tongue in the cheek...

I think he probably writes everything with a twinkle in the eye and a tongue in the cheek.