THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

This book is open for a group/buddy read and comment/discussion starting on 1st December 2012.

by Alex Kershaw
The riveting true story of the bloodiest and most dramatic march to victory of the Second World War, following the battlefield odyssey of a maverick U.S. Army officer and his infantry unit as they fought from the invasion of Italy to the liberation of Dachau at war's end.

From July 10, 1943, the date of the Allied landing in Sicily, to May 8, 1945, when victory in Europe was declared-roughly 500 days-no regiment saw more action, and no single platoon, company, or battalion endured worse, than the one commanded by Felix Sparks, a greenhorn second lieutenant when The Liberator begins. Historian Alex Kershaw vividly portrays the immense courage and stamina of Sparks and his men as they fought terrifying engagements against Hitler's finest troops in Sicily and Salerno and as they endured attack after attack on the beaches of Anzio (with Sparks miraculously emerging as his 200-man company's sole survivor).

In the bloody battle for southern France, Sparks led his reconstituted unit into action against superbly equipped and trained die-hard SS troops and demonstrated how the difference between defeat and victory would be a matter of character, not tactics or hardware. Finally, he and his men were ordered to liberate Dachau, the Nazis' first concentration camp. It would be their greatest challenge, a soul-searing test of their humanity.

I've just started reading the book and isn't the photograph opposite the title page amazing! No wonder it inspired Alex Kershaw to write this book. I've never seen this picture before, has anyone else?

I just read the prologue--wow, there is a lot of emotion in those few pages. I hadn't seen the photo before. I guess it's one of those pictures that's worth a thousand words (or maybe 100,000 plus, depending on how many words The Liberator comes in at).

Hi A.L.

So true what you said about the Prologue, like this sentence from page 2:

(view spoiler)[The American soldiers under his command had performed magnificently. He wanted to pay his respects to some of those who had fallen. That was why he was back. There had been no time during combat to stand over them and grieve, no time to say how he felt, to show his love other than by trying his best to keep them alive. At that, he had failed, over and over, and over again. (hide spoiler)]

I loved reading about Colonel Ankcorn's actions when the flotilla commodore for the 157th during the invasion of Sicily started moving the ships away from the beaches due to enemy shore fire. Pages 33-34:

(view spoiler)[ Sparks saw Ankcorn pull out his pistol. Unbelievably, he then placed it to the commodore's head.
"Commodore, our scheduled station is seven miles offshore. Now, you turn this convoy around and get back on proper station."
The commodore didn't say a word to Ankcorn but did give the order to turn about. (hide spoiler)] - Now that's a combat leader!

What did others think about Sparks return to duty (pages 71-72) after being wounded?

I liked this quote from Felix Sparks on the title page for Part Three in the book - ANZIO:

It's not hard to get promoted in the infantry if you do your job and stay alive. The problem is staying alive.

What did folks think of the B&W picture at the start of Chapter Seven in the book?

ANZIO, Italy, April 1944, from page 119:

(view spoiler)[....Worse still, the new boys were woefully unprepared for the horrors that lay ahead. Some could barely salute, and none had any training in how to deal with the psychological trauma of combat. One did not know who Hitler was. Guy Prestia, a machine gunner, remembered an anxious nineteen-year-old who had not even fired an M1. Prestia showed him how one afternoon, stressing the importance of keeping the breach clean to prevent it from jamming in battle. The replacement used his gun for the first time the following night. “He only fired one shot,” recalled Prestia. “The one he used to kill himself.” (hide spoiler)] - Pretty sad story.

What did folks think of the exchange between General Frederick and Major General Geoffrey Keyes on page 131:

(view spoiler)[Around midday on June 3, 1944, Frederick watched as his men began the final attack into Rome. A jeep approached. Major General Geoffrey Keyes, the fifty-six-year-old II Corps commander, got out of the jeep.
"General Frederick," said Keyes. "What's holding you up here?"
"The Germans, sir."
"How long will it take to get across the city limits?"
"The rest of the day. There are a couple of guns up there."
"That will not do. General Clark must be across the city limits by four o'clock."
Frederick questioned the sudden imposition of such an arbitrary deadline.
"He has to have a photograph taken."
Frederick tried to hide his contempt.
"Tell the General to give me an hour."
spoiler> (hide spoiler)]

What about this exchange between General Clarke and a NCO later on, from page 138:

(view spoiler)[Another Thunderbird, Technical Sergeant Jim Rutledge of L Company, received a Distinguished Service Cross, America’s second highest award for valor.
“Rutledge,” said Clark, “I’ve heard a good deal about you.”
“Yes sir,” replied a cocky Rutledge. “And I’ve heard a good deal about you, too.” (hide spoiler)]


Below is a link to Technical Sergeant Jim Rutledge’s citation:

http://militarytimes.com/citations-me...

On page 182 we are introduced to Johann Voss, a machine gunner in SS-Mountain Infantry Regiment 11 Reinhard Heydrich. I have a copy of this book, signed by the author, so I better get around to reading it soon.


by Johann Voss
Description:
Originally written while the author was a prisoner of the US Army in 1945-46, Black Edelweiss is a boon to serious historians and WWII buffs alike. In a day in which most memoirs are written at half a century's distance, the former will be gratified by the author's precise recall facilitated by the chronologically short-range (a matter of one to seven years) at which the events were captured in writing. Both will appreciate and enjoy the abundantly detailed, exceptionally accurate combat episodes.

Even more than the strictly military narrative, however, the author has crafted a searingly candid view into his own mind and soul. As such, Black Edelweiss is much more than a "ripping yarn" or a low-level military history. Black Edelweiss joins not only the growing body of German military memoirs, but the more select, more narrowly-focused group of personal memoirs by other Waffen-SS enlisted men. Beyond the microcosmic view of combat these books relate to the extent that they are honest and candid such books are important for what they can reveal about their authors' motivations and reflections on those impulses and their consequences. To date, these works differ significantly.

As it joins the ranks of the books in this genre, Black Edelweiss makes a unique and very important contribution. It is a true, personal account of the author's war years, first at school and then with the Waffen-SS, which he joined early in 1943 at the age of seventeen. For a year and a half, the author fought as a machine gunner in SS-Mountain Infantry Regiment 11 Reinhard Heydrich, mainly in the arctic and sub-arctic reaches of Soviet Karelia and Finland, and later at the Western frontier of the Third Reich. The characters in the story are real, and the conversations and actions are recounted to the best of his ability from the short distance at which he wrote the manuscript in 1945-46.

Apart from the piercing insights into the question of why the German soldier fought as he did, what makes this book truly unique is the author's anguished, yet resolute examination of the dialectic between the honorable and valorous comportment of his comrades and the fundamentally reprehensible conduct of about 35,000 men behind the front lines who nevertheless wore the same uniform.

During his captivity, the author was assigned for a time as a clerk to a US Army Judge Advocate General's Corps officer, and in the performance of his administrative duties, the author had access to the mounting reams of documentation of the Holocaust. His growing recognition of the involvement of Waffen-SS personnel in the monstrous crimes of that process caused him to dig deeply into his soul, to examine his most intimate and private motivations and thoughts, and to reevaluate the most basic assumptions of his life to that point. The author captured this process and the result in the notes which became this book.

Honestly, forthrightly, and courageously told, Black Edelweiss is a precious gift to historians and other students of World War II. It not only provides a glimpse into the attributes that made the German armed forces a formidable and tenacious foe, but squarely confronts the most painful issue facing German World War II veterans in general, and Waffen-SS veterans in particular.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "What did folks think of the B&W picture at the start of Chapter Seven in the book?"

Haven't gotten to chapter seven yet (not because it's not a good book--I'm just trying to finish up another book at the same time), but I thought the picture at the beginning of chapter two of Sparks and his future wife was cute. It's not often that you call a picture in a book like this cute.

Hi A.L. the picture on the rock was nice, wasn't it?

I wonder if the author included that picture to make Felix more human in the book do you think?

You will find an amazing selection of chapter pictures throughout the book, well chosen by the author.

I really enjoyed the story about Spark's efforts to rescue his men in the fighting around Reipertswiller, on pages 198 to 206. I will have to read Voss's account above to compare the two sides of the story.

What did other readers think of the incident between Voss and his machine gun crew and Sparks rescuing injured men (page 204)?


This account gives you an idea of how intense the fighting must have been and what sort of combat leader Sparks was, from page 205:

(view spoiler)[It was 1.30pm when an utterly drained Sparks arrived back at his forward command post. The front of his tank was charred black and part of the cannon had broken loose. The machine gun was almost burnt-out. Sparkes had fired an incredible five thousand rounds.

Word of the attempted breakthrough spread fast. Sergeant Bernard Fleming, whose wounded squad members had been rescued, later remembered that Spark's actions "buoyed the morale of all who were aware of his gallantry that day. Our commander had proved once again that he valued his soldier's lives and was willing to take large risks on their behalf." (hide spoiler)]

What did other readers think of the incident between Sparks and his CO – Frederick, as outlined on pages 214-215 in regards to the aftermath of the fighting at Reipertswiller?

Also this account taken from page 215 of the book:

(view spoiler)[ Frederick must have deeply resented Spark’s call for an investigation, though he had little reason to worry about censure, given senior Allied generals’ demand during the battle for him to not yield a yard. His reaction to Sparks’s request for an investigation was harsh and swift. In a confidential letter sent from the 45th Infantry Division HQ on January 29, only a few days after Sparks had upbraided him in person, he had his revenge, stating that he did not concur with a January 24 recommendation, made by Colonel O’Brien, that a Distinguished Service Cross be awarded to Sparks. “The circumstances surrounding the capture of elements of Lieutenant Colonel Sparks’ battalion are now under investigation,” wrote Frederick. “The actions for which he is cited … are considered to have been the normal actions of any commander in this situation and do not constitute extraordinary heroism for which the Distinguished Service Cross is awarded.” (hide spoiler)] - Do folks think this is a fair assessment or a petty and offensive action by a pissed off commander?

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Hi A.L. the picture on the rock was nice, wasn't it?

I wonder if the author included that picture to make Felix more human in the book do you think?

You will find an amazing selection of chapter..."

I agree--good choice on the pictures I've seen so far. And the early chapters do a good job of making Felix feel real. The poverty, joining the army because he's broke and doesn't have anything else going for him, the photo-developing side business. Doesn't take up much of the book, but does a great job of setting everything else up.

Very true A.L. in regards to the author providing the background on the early life of Sparks, it blends in well with the story as a whole and doesn't take up too much of the book as you mentioned.

How are you finding the book so far?

Below is a link that some members might find interesting for further reading as it's a thesis presented to the Faculty of the U. S. Army Command and General Staff College.

THE BATTLE OF ASCHAFFENBURG: AN EXAMPLE OF LATE WORLD WAR II URBAN COMBAT IN EUROPE:

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/...


This battle is covered in the book starting on page 231.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "What did others think about Sparks return to duty (pages 71-72) after being wounded?"

I wonder if the AWOL thing was because N. Africa didn't know where he was, or because he angered the hospital staff.

I'm thinking he pissed off the hospital staff :)

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "What did folks think of the B&W picture at the start of Chapter Seven in the book?"

I think I feel bad for their wife/mother. That picture is one more example of how hard war can be for families. Can you imagine the worry those two must have felt every time a shell exploded?

I'm really enjoying the book so far. Alex is a great writer, and Sparks has a story worth telling.

Here are a few thoughts from early in the book (no page numbers because the kindle edition doesn't have them--some publishers add them, but not this one):

from chapter three: the waves were more than nine feet as the craft bucked and bounced toward their assigned landing area. Makes me seasick. And reminds me of a quote from another book I read recently,


For those who have never travelled by LCI, my advice is the same as for plagues, and that is at all costs to avoid them. They are small and smelly, and although I am normally a reasonably good sailor, these craft invariably make me sick.

I'm amazed the troops could fight after riding to the beaches like that--but they did it, over and over again.

There's this, from chapter five, showing yet another way you can get killed during war--death from translation errors. (view spoiler)[...a badly wounded Vinnie Stigliani sat opposite a German intelligence officer...
"Did you find any ponds destroyed?" asked the German.
"I don't know what you mean."
"Oh, you know what I mean," the German said, and then placed a Luger pistol to Stigliani's head...
Only later, as a POW, would Stigliani realize that the German's English had not been perfect after all. The German must have forgotten the the English word bridges and used the Italian instead. Pontes had sounded just like "ponds" to a terrified eighteen-year-old bleeding from shrapnel wounds. (hide spoiler)]

Glad to hear you are enjoying the book A.L., it keeps the same pace all the way through and I finished the book in awe of Felix Sparks, what a great man.

For those interested in reading more about the fighting between the 6th SS-Mountain Division and the 45th “Thunderbird” Division during Operation Norwind you could try this book:


by Wolf T. Zoepf
Description:
The first book-length account of the initial phase of Operation NORDWIND, the last German offensive on the Western Front in World War II, Seven Days in January is also a personal memoir by a key participant. For perspective, the author includes a detailed, yet concise, summary of his division's operations during three years of combat against the Soviets on the Arctic Front near Murmansk, and its epic 1,000-mile fighting withdrawal across Finland and Norway after the Finns concluded a separate armistice with the USSR in 1944. With this as background, the author focuses on a day-by-day description and analysis of Operation NORDWIND, based on not only his personal experience in the campaign, but on extensive use of both German and American archival sources and dozens of interviews with the combatants of both sides. A gripping and detailed account of an important, yet until now obscure unit's participation in the last critical contest on the Western Front in WWII.

I enjoyed this quote from page 328 of the book in regards to the French resistance fighter liberated from Dachua and spirited away, Robert Antelme:

(view spoiler)[“The world goes on being awash in wickedness, arrogance, mediocrity,” wrote one of his many friends. “But Antelme showed us that the business of living may be accomplished with goodness, with modesty, and with nobility.” (hide spoiler)]

What did others think of the casaulty figures provided on page 329 that the Thunderbirds suffered during WW2:

(view spoiler)[3,650 men killed in action, 13,729 men wounded in action, and an astonishing 41,647 non-battle casaulties - 62,907 in all during their 511 days at war. (hide spoiler)]

I also enjoyed this response from one of the 45th veterans when questioned by a stateside Colonel about which beach he landed on, from page 330:

(view spoiler)["Sir," the insulted Thunderbird replied, "my outfit hit so many beaches that we forgot their names. One soldier out of my old company is still alive. The rest are buried at Salerno and Anzio and the Siegfried Line. Sir, I never saw Omaha or Utah beach. We were busy killing krauts. Anything else, sir?" (hide spoiler)]

i've read the Voss book, so interesting that he
makes an appearance here from the other side
of the fence. as the summary sez, Voss writing it
right after the war gives it an honesty.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "On page 182 we are introduced to Johann Voss, a machine gunner in SS-Mountain Infantry Regiment 11 Reinhard Heydrich. I have a copy of this book, signed by the author, so I better get around to rea..."

It was a pleasant surprise to see two books cross over in one incident and to see the battle from participants on both sides.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "What did folks think of the exchange between General Frederick and Major General Geoffrey Keyes on page 131:

I think I'm not too impressed with General Clark. Maybe it's poetic justice that his big day was so quickly overshadowed by the Normandy D-day.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I really enjoyed the story about Spark's efforts to rescue his men in the fighting around Reipertswiller, on pages 198 to 206. I will have to read Voss's account above to compare the two sides of t..."

I love reading about little acts of mercy in such a horrible war (thinking of Voss's machine gun crew). I can see why Spark's men had so much respect for him--he really cared about them. That battle must have been so hard on Sparks after going through the Battle of the caves in Anzio.

Another poignant story involving mercy was Harry Eisner and his squad trying to save the injured German schoolgirl right before the surrender of Aschaffenburg. (sorry I don't have the page number--I think it's a few pages before the second photo insert.)

I have found that the account of Felix Sparks and his men has been very well told and it dragged me into the story and it was sometimes hard to put the book down.

I agree with you A.L. about the incident with Harry Eisner trying to save the injured German schoolgirl at Aschaffenburg and how her eyes never left him even as she was being driven away - I wonder what happened to her?

I bet Harry Eisner also wonders what happened to her. Kind of a haunting image, even for men who had seen so much death.

It is a very haunting scene painted by the author and I can still picture it in my mind from just reading the book so you are right to wonder about Harry Eisner and if he ever forgot the girl and wondered all his life about her fate.

harry later wrote that he saw the girl many years later on a ferry in new york! but never approached her. not sure if that can believed - but clearly he was very touched by the experience.

thanks for such nice comments

bst\

alex kershaw

Thanks for that information Alex. Pretty amazing if she did survive and they crossed paths in America, it would be nice to think that it did indeed happen.

Wow, that is an amazing story. I bet it gave Harry some closure, even though he didn't talk to her.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "What did other readers think of the incident between Sparks and his CO – Frederick, as outlined on pages 214-215 in regards to the aftermath of the fighting at Reipertswiller?

Also this account t..."

After finishing the book (loved it!), I think Sparks and Frederick were both strong personalities under a lot of stress. I'm glad things got better between them. I think Frederick should have given him the DSC. I got the impression that Sparks was going against the norm when he went to save his men rather than performing his "customary duty."

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I also enjoyed this response from one of the 45th veterans when questioned by a stateside Colonel about which beach he landed on, from page 330:


Hope the colonel did his homework next time he talked to a Thunderbird. That was a great quote. (view spoiler)[Sir," the insulted Thunderbird replied, "my outfit hit so many beaches that we forgot their names. One soldier out of my old company is still alive. The rest are buried at Salerno and Anzio and the Siegfried Line. Sir, I never saw Omaha or Utah beach. We were busy killing krauts. Anything else, sir?" (hide spoiler)]

Totally agree with you A.L. about Spark's attempts to rescue his men being beyond his "customary duty."

The author took us on a pretty good journey with Sparks and his men and I really enjoyed the book as well.

I am arriving a bit late at the party but I only picked up this book yesterday. From all the interesting comments I am really looking forward to getting started on it!

Hi John,

I think you will enjoy it, well I hope you do :)

Let us know what you think as you get into it, happy reading!

John, I'm glad you got a copy of the book! I look forward to hearing what you think.

I generally liked the book but thought it was often fairly superficial through, Sicily, Italy and Southern France. It wasn't until Eastern France and Germany that there was much depth to the battles.

It is ironic in light of last week's Sandy Hook School shootings that Sparks fought against the NRA for more gun control - good for him!

Thanks to a gift card for Christmas I have just purchased my copy today for delivery in the next few days! Along with Max Hastings's Inferno it should be some great reading for early 2013. :)

Two excellent books Tami, make sure you keep us posted on what you think of both books once you get a chance to read them.

Which book do you think you will read first?

Just finished the account of the March 1944 German attacks on the Anzio beach head. (view spoiler)[ Man the only survior of his company - that would be really hard to take! (hide spoiler)]

How are you finding the book so far then Happy?

Very, very good!

You have to admire a guy who walks away from a hospital on another continent to get back to his unit!