The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

This is Week Six for Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power.

This week's reading assignment is:

Week Six - December 24th - December 30th -> Chapters NINETEEN, TWENTY, TWENTY ONE, and TWENTY TWO p. 183 - 220

NINETEEN - The Philosophical World, TWENTY - His Head and His Heart, TWENTY ONE - Do You Like Our New Constitution?, and TWENTY TWO - A Treaty in Paris

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book is being kicked off on November 19th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

A SPECIAL THANK YOU TO RANDOM HOUSE FOR THEIR KINDNESS AND GENEROSITY.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bryan Craig will be moderating this discussion.

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

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WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

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If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

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Glossary:

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

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Bibliography:

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

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Table of Contents and Syllabus:

The following is a link to the table of contents for the book and the weekly syllabus:

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Book as a Whole Thread:

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Welcome,

~~Bryan

by Jon Meacham

Chapter Overviews and Summaries


Chapter Nineteen: The Philosophical World

Jefferson thrived in Paris. He bought furniture, paintings, and books. He went to concerts, operas, and briefly joined a chess club. Jefferson befriended Thomas Paine about the time the Constitutional Convention was happening in the U.S. In 1786, Jefferson traveled to England where the English were not very hospitable to Americans. He did travel and saw some of the famous gardens.

Chapter Twenty: His Head and His Heart

Jefferson met Maria Cosway, a wealthy woman who loved the arts. They hit it off immediately and went to dinners and getaways together. However, the affair ended, because she had to leave the country. Jefferson wrote a long "Head vs. Heart" letter where reason and emotion argued with one another. Reason won out, and Jefferson learned that pain comes with living life.

Chapter Twenty One: Do You Like Our New Constitution?

Jefferson was surprised to see so much poverty in France. The country was in huge debt and people were growing hostile to the crown. King Louis XVI hoped to stop a revolution by calling on the Estates-General. In America, the Shays Rebellion (1787) occurred and Jefferson thought rebellion was all part of democracy, a way for the people to voice their concerns and then, the government rectifies.

In July 1787, Polly and Sally Hemings came to Paris. Also, Jefferson was at first a little skeptical about the new U.S. constitution. He hoped for a declaration of rights and worried the president had too much power. However, the pluses outweighed the minuses, and he supported it.

Chapter Twenty Two: A Treaty in Paris

By 1788, Madison Hemings, Sally's son, said that Sally and Jefferson started a relationship and she got pregnant. Sally did not want to return to the U.S. as a slave, but stay in France as a free person. Jefferson gave her assurances that her children would be freed when they turned 21, and she would have special privileges.

Jefferson helped negotiate a new treaty with France that put the U.s. on better footing. The U.S. also went to Dutch bankers to help pay the country's debts. Jefferson was eager to return home as he heard that Washington will most likely be the next president.

In France, events turned worse when in June 1789, the National Assembly was formed, escalating the French Revolution. Mobs began to loot, there were street fights, and citizens stormed the Bastille in July. In September, Jefferson wrote to Madison saying that every generation had a right to write up new laws (Earth belongs to the living). However, he was not serious about each generation creating and ratifying a new constitution, but he was just philosophizing.

At the end of the chapter, we see Jefferson leaving France with his family and Sally.

Chapter 20, page198 says, "What is clear is that he was self-aware and prepared to live with unresolved contradictions..." TJ had lofty ideals...but repeatedly we see that he compromises or even sets aside his ideals in order to accomplish what he felt was reasonable...a successful politician.

Chapter 21, page 202, states, "Liberty...requires patience, forbearance, and fortitude." TJ had a very practical side that allowed him to keep in mind the longterm even as he was not seeing accomplished exactly what he wanted in the short run.

Chapter 21, page 208, again shows us TJ's balance between idealism and pragmatism: "This was a key element of Jefferson's vision: he wrote beautifully of the pursuit of the perfect, but he knew good when he saw it."

Meacham briefly mentions that Thomas Jefferson had Sally Hemings inoculated for small pox(p 216). This is actually a rather big story and a large financial investment on Jefferson's part. He had requested that a someone older who either already had small pox or had been inoculated be sent to France with Polly. When young Sally arrived, she was vulnerable to the deadly disease. I found Annette Gordon-Reed's discussion of the process and Sally's time spent in quarantine fascinating.

by Annette Gordon-Reed

Lewis wrote: "Chapter 21, page 202, states, "Liberty...requires patience, forbearance, and fortitude." TJ had a very practical side that allowed him to keep in mind the longterm even as he was not seeing accompl..."

Thanks, Lewis. He did seem to have a practical side as well as a philosophical one. Perhaps it was his interest in farming and science that grounded him.

Joanne wrote: "Meacham briefly mentions that Thomas Jefferson had Sally Hemings inoculated for small pox(p 216). This is actually a rather big story and a large financial investment on Jefferson's part. He had re..."

Interesting point, Joanne. I think the inoculation was an insurance policy .

This quote is interesting:

"Moving between the two worlds, translating the best of the old to the new and explaining the benefits of the new to the old, he created a role for himself as both intermediary and arbiter." (p. 184)

Bryan wrote: "Joanne wrote: "Meacham briefly mentions that Thomas Jefferson had Sally Hemings inoculated for small pox(p 216). This is actually a rather big story and a large financial investment on Jefferson's ..."

TJ's interest in and promotion of small pox inoculation is yet another fascinating aspect of his personality. At home, he inoculated his own family and his slaves. His niece, Nancy Jefferson, the only daughter of his only brother, Randolph Jefferson, was inoculated at Monticello as well. For more see the TJ Encylopedia: http://www.monticello.org/site/resear...

If Sally Hemings was Jefferson's slave and was reassured that her children with him would be granted freedom (at 21), I wonder why she couldn't be granted the same privilege? Unless gaining that freedom would have put she and her family in a less advantageous position in that day and time.

I'm not sure it's that big a story. small pox vaccinations were around in America since the days of Cotton Mather, around the early 1700's, who himself learned of the vaccination from one of his slaves. Read about that in the Speckled Monster. Anyhoo, I'm not sure TJ did it from a sense of science or conscience, I think he did it purely from a financial perspective, the fewer of his slaves that died, the less money he'd have to spend to get replacements, let alone the time to train them. I cannot prove it, but my sense of the man TJ was, that's what I would think.

Anyhoo, the Cotton Mather reference can be found at
Jennifer Lee Carrell

I think that Lewis has hit upon one of Mr. Meacham's themes when it comes to Jefferson. He was a man with both idealistic and practical sides, and he was prepared to live with the contradictions between the two. Meacham has drawn attention to this on a couple of occasions, likely because he feels it is critical to an understanding of Jefferson.

In this section, I enjoyed revisiting Jefferson's well-know dialogue between his Head and his Heart. This stood out: "The art of life is the art of avoiding pain." (p 202) Jefferson smoothly elevates his avoidance of conflict to artful living!

the thing about avoiding conflict is, that may be true for you, but it can also mean hell for those who you are avoiding conflict with. Imagine witnessing a debate between two people who are opposite sides. If both believe you sided with them, then one will be disappointed when you finally pick a side, maybe even feeling betrayed...

And frustrated,too, Marc.

David wrote: "If Sally Hemings was Jefferson's slave and was reassured that her children with him would be granted freedom (at 21), I wonder why she couldn't be granted the same privilege? Unless gaining that f..."

I suppose we will never know exactly why Sally choose to remain with Jefferson instead of gaining her freedom promised in France. Perhaps she did indeed see herself in a better position than what little skills she had in a Revolutionary France in turmoil at the time.

Kathy wrote: "David wrote: "If Sally Hemings was Jefferson's slave and was reassured that her children with him would be granted freedom (at 21), I wonder why she couldn't be granted the same privilege? Unless ..."

The conclusion of "A Treaty in Paris" highlights how dangerous it might have been for all the Jefferson family to remain in France, including James and Sally Hemings, who might have stayed.

Joanne wrote: "Meacham briefly mentions that Thomas Jefferson had Sally Hemings inoculated for small pox(p 216). This is actually a rather big story and a large financial investment on Jefferson's part. He had re..."The book

The Hemingses of MonticelloAnnette Gordon-Reed looks like one I'd like to read on this subject.

Kathy wrote: "David wrote: "If Sally Hemings was Jefferson's slave and was reassured that her children with him would be granted freedom (at 21), I wonder why she couldn't be granted the same privilege? Unless ..." I wondered this too. Even free, life in France on her own with a young baby would be difficult. Married white women were considered the property of their fathers and/or their husbands in those days. A woman was either in the custody of her father or her husband. So maybe Sally saw the value of protection for herself and her children. She was at the bedside of her half sister and heard the promise TJ gave his wife.

Revolutionary riots were taking place in France by the time they left. I think it would have been very frightening to stay there. As Sherry pointed out, Jefferson had promised his wife not to marry again. So far he had kept that promise, although in his society widowers almost always remarried within a short time. Not having an official wife around certainly made Sally's position more secure.

She was not officially freed in Jefferson's will, which is not surprising in light of the vicious political diatribes against her and Jefferson's relationship during his lifetime. Jefferson and his white family did their best to cover up his other family and he certainly did not want to draw attention to Sally on his deathbed. After his death, Sally went to live with her sons who had been freed (but not recognized as children by Jefferson) and was "given her time" by Jefferson's daughter. This was a way of unofficially freeing slaves.

In case you can't tell by all of my comments about the Hemings :), I have been fascinated by The Hemingses of Monticello, which Joanne recommended.

I would highly recommend it, although there are times when I got a bit impatient with all the conjecture - a necessity in the case of this hidden story. I for one did not have as much trouble as Gordon-Redd in accepting why Sally would give up the possibility of freedom in revolutionary France to return to her country and family under the protection of a wealthy and powerful older man.

by Annette Gordon-Reed

A single book cannot cover a life as large as Jefferson's, but it might have been helpful to learn how Jefferson's relationship with Washington was formed. The quote that Jefferson asked Washington "to communicate to me what you can recollect of Bushnell's experiments in submarine navigation...." (p184-185 ARC) seemed to drop in out of thin air.

The "Head and Heart" essay was a challenge for me. I found it both immature and profound. Of course, at the end of the document a brilliant adulthood takes the lead: "It is the law of our existence; and we must acquiesce."

But then he frequently seems to 'waffle'.

This being the holidays for those of us who observe them, with families coming together, as I read the section on Sally Hemmings return to America with Jefferson, I wondered if anyone knows the role her brother played in the decision. She was, after all, a teenager. I have not read the Hemingses of Monticello. Perhaps this is explained there?

by Annette Gordon-Reed

G wrote: "A single book cannot cover a life as large as Jefferson's, but it might have been helpful to learn how Jefferson's relationship with Washington was formed. The quote that Jefferson asked Washingto..."

As Commander-in-Chief of the colonial army,he did read a lot of stuff on military, along with fellow officers like Hamilton and Greene, so it's not surprising he might have known about the experiment.

Washington was quite famous, likely the 2nd-most famous after Franklin, I'm sure TJ heard of him as a hero during the French and Indian war, known for his bravery and daring. I would think they likely have bumped into each other from time to time, with much less opportunity when Washington was busy with the colonial army.

see Ron Chernow

G,
As I remember (the book had to go back to the library), Sally's brother James thought he was returning to France with Jefferson, but Jefferson's plans changed. James was both Sally's brother and Jefferson's wife's half-brother. Jefferson paid for James to be trained as a French chef. Apparently he was very talented at it. Both James and Sally were paid by Jefferson when they were in France.

James's influence on Sally is based on conjecture, but Gordon-Reed says that he certainly could have helped Sally if she had stuck by her original decision to stay in France (according to Sally's son Madison, Jefferson had to talk her out of it).

Jefferson later freed James and his brother Robert. Both of them had served as Jefferson's personal servant, but were allowed to work for others and keep the money when he didn't need them. James came to a very sad end. He committed suicide.

From Jefferson's point of view, he treated the Hemings' family well. He didn't understand why Robert and James wanted to leave him and be free.

Annette Gordon-Reed

There is no doubt in my mind that Jefferson loved his daughters dearly, but thoughts on child rearing have definitely changed.

He wrote to Patsy (p. 166) about her studies:
The acquirements which I hope you will make under the tutors I have provided for you will render you more worthy of my love, and if they cannot increase it they will prevent its diminution.

Laying on the guilt trip has a long history.

Marc wrote: "G wrote: "A single book cannot cover a life as large as Jefferson's, but it might have been helpful to learn how Jefferson's relationship with Washington was formed. The quote that Jefferson asked..."

Thanks, Marc. I shall add the book to my reading list. I think I was more concerned with the lack of continuity on the part of the author by including this specific reference, which had the feel of name dropping rather than a continuation of the "TJ was an enlightened man" theme. It just seemed out of place. (Harsh on my part, I know, but it needled me).

Ann wrote: "G,
As I remember (the book had to go back to the library), Sally's brother James thought he was returning to France with Jefferson, but Jefferson's plans changed. James was both Sally's brother an..."

Another book for my ever growing list. I didn't know that about James. Very sad. I guess we have to assume Sally felt this was the best possible choice for herself. The free unknown versus the enslaved familiar. A rough choice when you were born into slavery.

I wonder if maybe the reason Sally stayed with Jefferson was that she could have thought she was in love with him. Her feelings toward him would have certainly been a strong motivation for going back to Virginia. We think and know that slavery was and is a terrible institution but maybe just maybe Sally and her circumstances made the choice very easy. She was in France at a time of great turmoil with no real means to support herself or she could go home with a man who did love her and she him I believe and live a comfortable life with the prospect that her children would be free. Love is a powerful motivator. Fear of the unknown is also a very powerful when it comes to moving forward.

In addition to all other concerns, Sally had a very large extended family at Monticello. Staying in France would have meant severing ties with her own kin. Freedom is not always the highest value, although looking back from the 21th century, we tend to assume that.

Good points, Clayton and Joanne.

Well, I'm beginning to like TJ a little better after reading this section. I'll start with the most recent comments . . . before reading this section I was not aware of the age of Jefferson and Hemings at the beginning of this relationship. He was in his 40's and she was just a teenager. And even given the attitudes of slave ownership . . . I have to wonder if she was in love with him . . . it sounds as though he was probably her first lover . . . and if true also the father of her first child . . . . powerful emotional bonds being formed at such a time in a young girl's life. And he going through a mid-life crises of his own . . . . opportunity was ripe for this May-Dec. romantic involvement. And he being such a creator and turner of phrases . . . I would think she would be flattered by having this attention.
That being said . . . it still doesn't change my attitude about his treatment of his slaves and the question of his continuation of the practice of slavery in general.

There was so much info about the growing pains of the fledgling America it is hard to know where to start . . . and at the same time be able to see such similarities taking place still . . .

Taxes were unequal and haphazardly collected; the heaviest burden of the cost of the Crown and its expensive ways and wars fell less on nobles or clergy, who were largely exempt, and more on commoners, creating understandable tension and popular hostility. p. 199 ARC ed.

This was referring to the situation in France . . . but a quick look around at the political climate in America today . . . it sounds as though it's describing what's happening right here . . .

Reading of the growing pains of trying to decide just what kind of government America should be really brought home the struggle of a group of people attempting to band together to form something different yet familiar that they could all live with.

On Jefferson's acceptance of the Constitution as drafted . . .
This was a key element of Jefferson's vision: he wrote beautifully of the pursuit of the perfect, but he knew good when he saw it. He would not make the two enemies. p. 208 ARC ed.

And I liked reading about Madison's influence on keeping TJ on an even keel . . . when he became too much even for himself . . .

It's too bad that history and politics as they are taught in schools today don't do more for bringing a dose of realism into the classroom . . . providing an opportunity for learning . . . not just absorbing dry facts and dates.

Thanks for posting all. I am on a family vacation until Jan. 5, so this is why I am not on so much. Thanks.

Bryan wrote: "Thanks for posting all. I am on a family vacation until Jan. 5, so this is why I am not on so much. Thanks."
Have a wonderful time and a Happy New Year!

Tomerobber,
When I was in grade school and high school, I was bored by American history because it was geared towards teaching patriotism rather than any kind of critical thinking. Overall, I think the emphasis on multiculturalism in more recent years has helped students learn to assess and question. (Of course, that is true only when it is not carried to ridiculous extremes). The middle school level textbook I used when teaching ESL kids modern American history surprised me by how balanced it was.

Bryan,
I hope you are enjoying a well-deserved vacation with your family. Thanks for all you do here.

G wrote: "The "Head and Heart" essay was a challenge for me. I found it both immature and profound. Of course, at the end of the document a brilliant adulthood takes the lead: "It is the law of our existen..."

I agree G, this was hard for me to read and follow, and frankly it seemed like the babbling of a narcissist. TJ certainly had his moments and his writings are interesting for the most part but this one threw me for a loop. A man of contrasts indeed!

Ann wrote: "There is no doubt in my mind that Jefferson loved his daughters dearly, but thoughts on child rearing have definitely changed.

He wrote to Patsy (p. 166) about her studies:
The acquirements which ..."

Oh and the schedule of studies he set out for her was very ambitious I think. Home schooling from afar could not be easy but he certainly seemed to have high expectations of her educational pursuits. Your comment about the partental guilt trip made me chuckle. So true!

I vote for the missing of the extended family argument as why Sally decided to come back. Nothing to base that on but that is the way I vote.

TJ's youngest daughter, Polly, spent about 2 years in France. That doesn't really seem like a lot of experience/culture/education to have risked an ocean voyage for at that age. If she hadn't come and Sally had stayed in Virginia would Sally and TJ become a pair or would Sally had found someone else by the time he got back?

Maybe it was about TJ and the fact he missed Polly.

Good question about Sally and TJ. Because Sally came from his wife's side, maybe that bond was strong enough that Sally would be together with TJ even if she did not go to Paris. He thought her important enough to escort Polly to Paris.

Bryan wrote: "Maybe it was about TJ and the fact he missed Polly.

Good question about Sally and TJ. Because Sally came from his wife's side, maybe that bond was strong enough that Sally would be together wit..."

I got the impression that Sally was only a substitute (page 209) for someone else and not a request of Jefferson.

You correct Patriccrk, she came after his original plans fell apart. Thank you.