Jane Austen discussion

(Bingley's arrival and Mr.Bennet visits him. Meryton Ball where Bingley pleases everyone and Darcy appears disagreeable... The Lucases visit Longbourn to discuss the ball. Darcy asks Elizabeth to dance with him, and Elizabeth refuses.)

Ok, the re-reading has begun!
This time I'm going to savour every word of this amazing novel and I plan to write a comment about each chapter. I hope I'll have enough time to keep up with my schedule.

So...in the first chapter, the very beginning of the novel can already be ground for great discussion.
"It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife".
This is probably one of the most known Jane Austen quote, but... was she serious? Or is it just a sarcastic comment? This morning, while reading, I started wondering about that and maybe the answer is the halfway.
I think Jane Austen knew the importance of marriage in her time. Most of the women had to marry to have an income so marriage was important mostly for women.
That's why her incipit sound sarcastic: a single man in possesion of a good fortune must be in want of a wife or single women are ruined!
This beginning is a way to make a fool of those single women and mothers obsessed with marriage.

The first mother Jane Austen makes sports of is Mrs. Bennet herself. The conversation between Mr. and Mrs. Bennet immediately describe the main features of these characters.
Mrs. Bennet is clearly close-minded. She doesn't understand her husband's humor and sarcasm. Her anxiety and her delight came both from gossip and plans for her daughters.
Mr. Bennet is far more complex. He is a mix of irony, sarcasm, indifference and indolence and that mix immediately appears in the way he deals with his wife.

Maybe I should have warned you sooner: let me talk about Pride and Prejudice and I would never stop...

Mrs. Bennet is down right irritating and marriage obsessed. Yes, yes I know that a way to guaranteed a girl safe financial future was to marry her especially to a wealthy. However, did Mrs. Bennet really have to obsessed about marriage that way? I agree Irene, Austen was ridiculing that social norm of her time.

She was obsessed because she felt it was the only way to secure the future of herself, and her daughters. Although she is annoying, I understand her motives...

I think many mothers can still behave this way (although not to the same extent!) My mother is almost as obsessed with my having a baby, as Mrs B was with marrying her daughters, haha!

I love the first line of the book - it sets the tone for the rest of the novel, what a fantastic beginning :)

Irene: "Maybe I should have warned you sooner: let me talk about Pride and Prejudice and I would never stop... "

You came to the right place though, Irene :)

Mrs Bennet obsession for marriage is not the only feature that makes her annoying, maybe it's the more understandable. What I really find disturbing is her habit of thinking herself ill when she's not. In that way she makes herself the center of the family in spite of anyone else...

Yes, yes, her poor nerves were easy to laugh at (well for me) than to feel sympathy for. Notice in that time period young ladies were the centre of attention, however as they grow older that focus shifts? Well Mrs. Bennet does not want that attention to cease.

Marren wrote: "Yes, yes, her poor nerves were easy to laugh at (well for me) than to feel sympathy for. Notice in that time period young ladies were the centre of attention, however when they grow older that focu..."

Very well put! I couldn't have saied better.
I often wonder who inspired Mrs. Bennet character. I'm sure Jane Austen knew someone just like Mrs. Bennet or maybe more then one.
I know some Mrs. Bennet myself! And that's P&P power: characters are still up-to-date.

Irene Aprile wrote: "Ok, the re-reading has begun!
This time I'm going to savour every word of this amazing novel and I plan to write a comment about each chapter. I hope I'll have enough time to keep up with my schedu..."

I am completely with you. It is a sarcastic comment and I think it is like free indirect speech - it is what Mrs Bennet would say! SO, I know she realises the importance of marriage but every man with a large fortune MUST be in want of a wife? Not always.... this is what Mrs Bennet would think!

The conversations between Mr and Mrs Bennet are wonderful and reveal their characters, as you say, straight away!

Sarah wrote: "She was obsessed because she felt it was the only way to secure the future of herself, and her daughters. Although she is annoying, I understand her motives...

I think many mothers can still behav..."

I agree. I do understand her motives - what else is she to do?! But, she is so unsubtle in her ways of bringing it about...

And I agree about the nerves, that IS annoying!!! Silly woman...

Irene Aprile wrote: I know some Mrs. Bennet myself! And that's P&P power: characters are still up-to-date.
"

Yes! That is what I absolutely love about Austen's novels. She had the ability to observe and capture human characteristics really well, so well that we can still recognise them today. Which is what makes her novels such a success, I think. I did read an article though, that said perhaps human nature hasn't really changed that much in 200 years, which I think is true to an extent.

I was a little puzzled, reading a line in Chapter 5, when the Bennet ladies visit the Lucases after the Meryton assembly.

Charlotte says: "Mr. Darcy is not so well worth listening to as his friend, is he? - poor Eliza! - to be only just tolerable ."

That seemed kind of like a stab at Lizzie? Or is it just me? I'm not quite sure - I can't believe that Charlotte would make such an attack, but at the same time it does seem to have a sneering, almost 'Caroline Bingley' quality to it.

I agree! I know Mrs Bennet and many Lydia's and Wickhams etc it is wonderful that they are still relevant!

I'm not sure. Is she not just repeating what was said out of sympathy?
Was she really saying it to emphasis the point? Hum.... Would Charlotte do that?

It kinda of sounds like Charlotte is joking.It is said that Elizabeth after hearing Darcy's comment went and laughed about it with her friends.Charlotte is her closest friend so it makes the most sense that she would have been the first one to hear the story and laugh about it with her.It also sounds like there is a smile in her voice and she is laughing at the word tolerable being used about her friend who she thinks is pretty.

Plus a few lines later Charlotte says she wished he had danced with Lizzy more then she cares Darcy didn't talk to Mrs.Long.

Oh, yes! Very good point. And I half-forgot that Lizzy goes off and laughs about Darcy's comment with her friends. They probably were sharing a joke at this time. My bad.

Does anyone else wonder were the opening scene of Pride and Prejudice takes place?It is never said.In one movie it's when they are on there way to church and in the other in Mr.Bennet's study.I had always thought it took place in his study or in one of the sitting rooms.

Where do you think the first chapter takes place?

Well, when I read it I always imagined them to be inside as well, in some sitting room or another. Never in Mr. Bennet's study though :P I don't think he would deem this kind of information worthy enough to be disturbed in his study. Though his refusing to make any comment to his wife's first statement might hint that she's done the unthinkable.

I think it's quite clever that in the BBC adaptation this conversation is held after church. It's structured so it looks like the news is very fresh, gleaned from Mrs. B's gossiping sessions after mass.

Don't think it matters either way. It's an amusing conversation regardless of where it's held ;D

I think the conversation takes place indoor too. I've always imagined Mrs Bennet eyeing her husband from a corner of the room and trying to determine if it's the right moment to speak.
Mr Bennet, given that knows her wife very well, was probably really amused by the situation.
I imagine him showing much concentration in doing something, probably reading a book, just to provoke her wife's nerves.

Hmm, I am not sure, where it takes place because there are no clues to the setting/scene.

I think one of the great things about Austen is that she always gives room to the reader's imagination by not giving so many details... Even to the characters, she doesn't report what they say word for word, instead she gives the core of the conversation and report inderectly the rest! So the setting could be anywhere though I imagined it to be indoors :)

Mrs. Bennet is so irritating, I wonder why her eldest daughters are not like her though she raised them all by herself!

^ Yes! I always wondered why the first two girls were so different from the rest. But this time I found a clue. In one of the later chapters it's mentioned that Jane & Lizzy spent a lot of time at their Uncle and Aunt Gardiner's house when they were little, so maybe that's where they acquired all their good sense? Mrs. Bennet should have done the same for the rest of her children.

LOL, ohh LadyDisdain, pray Mrs Bennet does not write your above comment :D



Chahrazad, it is a beauty indeed, that some scenes are not so descriptive; that one can wonder. Maybe it is for this reason, so many different adaptations are produced.

Nicole D. wrote: "It kinda of sounds like Charlotte is joking.It is said that Elizabeth after hearing Darcy's comment went and laughed about it with her friends.Charlotte is her closest friend so it makes the most s..."

Good point! Very good point!

Chahrazad wrote: "I think one of the great things about Austen is that she always gives room to the reader's imagination by not giving so many details... Even to the characters, she doesn't report what they say word..."

I agree! she does leave a lot which your imagination can have fun with.

I imagined it indoors as many of you. But, I did love the way it happened in the 95. It makes the news seem ... new! and exciting!

LadyDisdain wrote: "^ Yes! I always wondered why the first two girls were so different from the rest. But this time I found a clue. In one of the later chapters it's mentioned that Jane & Lizzy spent a lot of time at ..."

And that is a very reasonable explaination for it. The gardieners are a great influence so the younge bennets would have benefitted from visiting them as well, but of course, they had their own children by then.

LadyDisdain wrote: "^ Yes! I always wondered why the first two girls were so different from the rest. But this time I found a clue. In one of the later chapters it's mentioned that Jane & Lizzy spent a lot of time at ..."

that is indeed a reasonable explanation. I just feel sorry for the other girls especially Lydia! but Mary, what to make of her? she's always been the least spoken of!

Mary's the one I feel the most sorry for! D: Jane & Lizzy and Kitty & Lydia seem to always be in pairs and Mary's left out. And then of course, she's the least good-looking, which we all know shouldn't matter but find it hard to believe. So she turns to books hoping that knowledge will be her distinction. I think Austen made a mistake in making her too much of a caricature. She needs a few redeeming qualities.

Even in pursuing knowledge, Austen makes it look like Mary's only doing so for the sake of being able to say that she is knowledgeable and not because she's interested in knowledge itself. And then there are the ridiculous things she says when Lydia elopes. Both Mary and Collins seem to be too caricaturish. I wanted to see some qualities in there that made them more real as people.

LadyDisdain wrote: "Even in pursuing knowledge, Austen makes it look like Mary's only doing so for the sake of being able to say that she is knowledgeable and not because she's interested in knowledge itself. And then there are the ridiculous things she says when Lydia elopes."

I definitely agree with you! Mary just wants recognition just like everybody else in her society; she had no good looks to depend on so she turned to books. However, books don't help with a feeble character! and that makes her the most pitiful indeed.

Why would you say that Mary turned to books because she had "no good looks?" Can it just be, that she loves to read?

I'm not saying that that would be impossible except for the fact that it's explicitly stated in the novel that Mary turns to knowledge as the feature that should distinguish her from the other sisters.

I'll try to find the line if I can.

LadyDisdain wrote: "I'm not saying that that would be impossible except for the fact that it's explicitly stated in the novel that Mary turns to knowledge as the feature that should distinguish her from the other sist..."

that's what I'm saying too Marren! Even at the ball in Netherfield, she didn't recieve any distinction... so I assumed she wasn't a what they called "a handsome face"

Here we go. It's in Ch6: "Mary, who having, in consequence of being the only plain one in the family, worked hard for knowledge and accomplishments, and was always impatient for display."

I get the feeling that she doesn't actually like books and reading for themselves, but because it's 'her' thing - she's the only one who's into it the most in the family (or she would like to think so) and therefore feels she must always refer to it or grab the opportunity to show her cleverness.

I read an essay in A Truth Universally Acknowledged: 33 Great Writers on Why We Read Jane Austencalls Mary one of the earliest examples of a nerd in a famous work of literature.It is a very good essay and I recommend this book.Mary wants so badly to be equal to her sisters she thinks sense she can't make herself more beautiful she can make herself smarter and better at everything else.She wants to be liked so badly that she thinks she has fond a way for her to shine and connect with others.

I know, and she was always alone :( I desperately want her to be happy.

LadyDisdain wrote: "Here we go. It's in Ch6: "Mary, who having, in consequence of being the only plain one in the family, worked hard for knowledge and accomplishments, and was always impatient for display."

I get ..."
.....but it does not mean she does not like books. She used it to better herself. Hey! She sounded 'smart' :D. That thirst for books, separated her from the rest of the sisters. One naive, two silly, one smart and another witty and severely prejudiced.

The adaptations tend to show Mary as not actually being very good at the things she strives for either, which while it has a certain amount of truth to it, I noted when I read this section again that it says she plays the piano better than Elizabeth but that there's no real feeling in her playing so it's less enjoyable to listen to.

LadyDisdain, you said you wanted Mary to be happy. While I was nosing around Austenprose for this challenge I came across this... http://austenprose.com/jane-austen-se...

That's true - seems to recite what she's read without actually forming her own opinions, and doesn't seem to have passion for music.

Oh, that's definitely a consolation. I love that Jane devised futures for the characters in her head! But...star in Meryton? What do they mean by that?

So ironic that Kitty ends up with a clergyman :P

Mary is an interesting character.
As to her beauty... she may be less beautiful but i am not sure whether her beauty may seem less than it is because she is always compared to her sisters and her beauty is always put down. could she maybe be considered plain because of her sisters? If she was on her own would she maybe just be thought of as not remarkable pretty but (to use the word ;)) tolerable? Its just a thought I had. Beauty did matter then (unfortunatley) and her sisters are pretty.

I also think that Mary did have a genuine enjoyment in reading and bettering herself but also i think that it was the way to distinguish herself from her sisters.
She is always portrayed as not the best at what she does... but i think in the novel she is good at what she does (even if Lizzy plays the pinao with more feeling) and even if her family - Mrs Bennet - don't fully appreciate her acedemic and musical talents and Mrs Bennet prefers Lydia's talents for flirting!

That's a good point about Mary!
I think you're right about her beauty and for what concern her education, she just improves her mind through extensive reading!
I believe she seems more dull then her witty sister Elizabeth because she wasn't properly guided in her education and learning, so she has something of pedantry.

Speaking of beauty. You know what struck me so moons ago? Jane is known as the beauty of the family, however in the adaptations in my view of beauty, Elizabeth looks the most attractive. I wonder if it was the ideal of Victorian beauty that Jane was seen as the most handsome and Mary the least appealing, hmmm.

Marren wrote: "Speaking of beauty. You know what struck me so moons ago? Jane is known as the beauty of the family, however in the adaptations in my view of beauty, Elizabeth looks the most attractive. I wonder i..."

Interesting point Marren. Beauty ideals do change in my view, and I believe Austen didn't give details concerning her heroines physical traits except calling them fair, pretty, fine, handsome and such!

True point about Mary too! Setting her in contrast to her sisters made it hard for her to stand out in other people's minds.

Poor Mary, she never stood a chance, she looked like the black sheep of the family. Jane is known as the beauty, Lizzie is her dad's favourite, Lydia is her mother's favourite and Kitty had the praise of her mother and the officers(say that word, the same way Lydia said "offficers as far as the eyes can see" in the 2005 version) haha.

Mary appeared lifeless, no one appreciates her piano skills. Is there anywhere in the novel where Elizabeth engages Mary about books? They both shared an interest in that that department.

Marren wrote: "Is there anywhere in the novel where Elizabeth engages Mary about books? They both shared an interest in that that department."

Right?! That would have been a great way of fleshing out Mary's character, but it never actually happens. Which is what leads me to think that all Mary's opinions are just words that she has read, simply regurgitated, and not actually processed and understood.

Or it could be that no one else in the family cared to check on Mary.

ha! A thought came to mind. Let me sound contradictory.

At the ending Mr. Bennet does say if any young man came to ask Mary and Kitty' hand, he is at his leisure. So he shows that she is thought of in the end of the novel. So what happen before?

*I just have faith that Mary tried to understand what she read and she liked it*

I agree with what is said - poor Mary never stood a chance.

At the end of the novel i think Mary would have had more of a chance, what with Lizzie, Jane and Lydia all being removed!! :) I think she will have a better chance now.

I wonder what type of person Kitty and Mary might marry...?