Arthuriana -- all things King Arthur ! discussion

What is the French Book Malory refers to in Le Morte Darthur?

Welcome Clara.
You will surely find answers, and more questions, here.
I'm a Dark Ages geek so I will leave the floor open to the folks here with a wider knowledge of the Medieval Arthur.

Clara, (love your name, it was my grandmother's) I am so glad you asked that question. I don't know the answer, but would love to follow the trail with you. Do you know which book and chapter it was mentioned? (they are books and chapters in Malory, right?)

Barbarossa, what time-period exactly is your main interest? Any recommendations, (or sources for) good non-fiction or fiction of the Anglo-Saxon period. I would like know more about the period after the believed-Arthur and on up to the Norman Conquest. If you know of anything, even in the earliest of that period, please post.

He mentions it a lot. Notablyat the end of Tristram, which is book...5, chapter 15, and he says, "Here endeth the second book of Sir Tristram, that was drawn out of the French into English by Sir Thomas Malory. But here is no reheasal of the third book." Which annoyed me considerably. He is constantly saying sokmething like, and then Gawain did this or that, and then, as the French book maketh mention, did this and that.
It's probably something really obvious that I just idiotically am looking over. I excel at this habit of overlooking dumb things. What other sources did people like Malory get the legends from?

Oh, I see what you mean. I think it would have been the French romances that had been popular over, what, a few hundred years in France. I am sure some of the other Arthuriana folk can quote them in detail. I think Chretian de Troyes would have been one of them. I know I found some sources just recently that gave a list of several. I will go back and look around. Because the thing was Malory took all those earlier versions and made an English version of massive proportions (as we see in the size of the thing), so kind of claimed the tales for England again and William Caxton took it and printed it a few years after Malory's death. Caxton was also a big deal because he was the first printing press in England and he printed these out for the royals (this was the Richard III period by now) and the wealthy, which also gave them a lasting English legacy.

Forgive me if you know some of this background already, it is becoming obvious that Arthurian is one of my favs to discuss. I will go back and see if I can find those really specific references to the major French works. I know some of the members here really know them better than me, but in case they arent looking in these days, I will see what I can do.

Hmmm...I recently picked up Tristan With the Surviving Fragments of the 'Tristan of Thomas', but this was by Gottfried Von Strassburg who sounds Germanic. Don't have it in front of me so don't know if it was written in French originaly...language of courtly love and all that.
But my money is currently on something by Chrétien de Troyes as Sarah notes above.
Having said that, this period will be dived into shortly by me when I finish wallowing in Dumas, and if I find out anything I'll fire out a post. I have Malory The Life and Times of King Arthur's Chronicler on my list which may shed some light on the matter.
Sarah, I grew up in the Forth/Clyde Valley in Scotland, between the walls if you will. This gave me an early interest in the end of the Roman occupation and who the locals were. A couple of very good primers for the Dark Ages Arthur and the environment Arthur may have stomped about in are: Arthur and the Anglo-Saxon Wars and Warlords and Holy Men Scotland 80-1000 AD
Also, as I've said before, I love The Gododdin and The Mabinogion.

There were two types of poetry in the French courts. The"Chanson de geste" the epic poems such as the "Song of Roland" intended to be performed orally. The "Chanson de roman" (not sure if that is how you spell it - something like that!) is the romantic poetry. It is Chretien de Troyes who adapted the Celtic legends and made additions like the quest for the grail, Lancelot and Guinevere, etc.

I don't know specifically what Malory is refering to, but Chretien deTroyes sounds reasonable. His books were very popular.

Thank you for your help. I'm going to go and find out more about Chretien de Troyes now.
Where did Tristram and Isoud first show up? I (think, but correct me if I'm wrong, please, I) know that Marie de France wrote about them, but she wasn't the first.
Thank you so much!

I think the theory is that Tristan legend is one of the oldest threads in the Arthurian legends, but there is some disagreement on its origin. It is certainly the prototype for the Guinevere/Lancelot/ Arthur love triangle.

There are versions of the names in some of the old Welsh literature, ie the Mabinogi and the Welsh triads. There is also a theory that 'Tristan' might be a variation on the Pictish name 'Drust'. Interestingly, one of the few Pictish symbol stones on the West Coast of Scotland (in Dumfries and Galloway) is at a place called 'Trusty's Hill'. I don't know how words change/translate into other languages, but they sound like they could be related - though of course it could be a chicken and egg situation . Also in Dumfries and Galloway ( I don't know how far from Trusty's Hill) there is a place called the Mote of Mark, which is a 5-7th century hill fort of some status that was excavated in 1913: there is evidence for metalworking, as well as wine imported from France and glass from Germany.

The Galloway connection would make the "Isolde as Irish princess" thing more plausable. The sea road across to Ulster was short and was the route the Scots/Dal Riada used as they started settling the West coast during the 5-7th centuries which would tie in with the dates of the fort you mention Duntay.
So, possibly: Mark as Pictish (or British) king/chief who tries to form an alliance through marriage with the Dal Riadan invaders. Tris as an envoy to Ulster. Izzy as political pawn.
Sounds plausable to me.
The fact Gottfried Von Strassburg did something with it which influenced Thomas Malory is the same as Kurosawa's homage to John Ford ending up as "The Magnificent Seven".

Wow, thanks for your help. That's a really interesting idea. Thank you again!

Clara wrote: "What is the French Book Malory refers to in Le Morte Darthur? I know that wasn't a fascinating topic, but I have alwaysd wanted to know? To make it more interesting, what interpretations fo the leg..."


Clara,

Eugene Vinaver makes an exact reference to the French sources Malory used in his works. It's in Vinavers' intro to his book "King Arthur and His Knights: Selected Tales..."

He even references Malory's 'no rehearsal of the third book.' Vinaver says a main source for Malory was the French Arthurian Prose Cycle, now called The Vulgate Cycle -- composed around 1225.

These included History of the Grail, Merlin, Quest of the Holy Grail, Death of Arthur, etc.

About that 'third book,' I think what he is saying is the French prose Tristan had three books. Malory used parts of the French Tristan but not the third book, which he found it necessary to mention in his work? See if that makes sense to you.

Also, at the time Vinaver wrote this, he says there is no complete critical edition of these French prose sources. Does anyone know if there are good editions of parts of the French cycle? I would love to find one and check it out....

Clara, if there are any good editions this might be a good source of more Tristan information too from the French side of things...

Barbarossa wrote: "Hmmm...I recently picked up [b:Tristan With the Surviving Fragments of the 'Tristan of Thomas'|186677|Tristan With the Surviving Fragments of the 'Tristan of Thomas' (Penguin Classics)|Gottfried ..."

Thanks for passing along those titles about the Dark Ages Arthur. It sounds like what I am looking for.

I grew up in the U.S. and we didn't have much official schooling in early history of Britain, but most of my ancestors came from Brit Isles, so my family always had a "family interest" in the subject. I believe it was my aunt who first handed me Mary Stewart's Merlin Tril. She was a genius of research and had she lived longer she would have probably traced our family history to amazing lengths. She did find a lot of connections in Wales and S. England. One of our family names was Wynn and the other Dexter.

Thank you, Sarah! I'd heard of the Vulgate Cycle vaguely but I never brought it to my attention...if nobody has translated it I'll have to wait until my French improves and find an edition and force myself through it...that would be very cool. Thank you (I've been saying that so much it probably sounds fake, but it's not)... so much!

Clara wrote: "Thank you, Sarah! I'd heard of the Vulgate Cycle vaguely but I never brought it to my attention...if nobody has translated it I'll have to wait until my French improves and find an edition and forc..."
They were translated in the 1990's by some one called Norris J Lacy. They are called 'The Lancelot Grail Cycle' and are in five volumes. I haven't read them myself, I am not as into the High Medieval stuff.

Lancelot-Grail The Old French Arthurian Vulgate and Post-Vulgate in Translation 001

Five volumes -- that's what Viniver was talking about -- he said they were extensive! thanks Duntay---

You're welcome, Clara. I'll keep looking around too.

Wow, thank you. I'm going to find those...after I'm done with Sir Gawain and the Grene Knight...but wow, thanks!(Sorry I can't say anything more useful or interesting).

Duntay said: "I think the theory is that Tristan legend is one of the oldest threads in the Arthurian legends, but there is some disagreement on its origin. It is certainly the prototype for the Guinevere/Lancelot/ Arthur love triangle."

Is it possible that the Llew Llau Guffes/Blodauwedd/Gronw triange from the Mabinogian is in fact the prototype?

Yes, I'm sure it could be as well. I don't know if it is possible to tell which one is older? It seems to be the Tristan version that entered the French canon, though. The heart of the Tristan story (or what it became anyway!) is the king betrayed by his wife and one of knights. Lleu Llaw Gyffes isn't a king but his wife betrays him, Gronw Pebr is just a passing hunter he falls in love with. I wonder if it does have its origins in the Mabinogi it might be more to do with the story of King Math and his virgin foot holders? .not really a love triangle, though, more a woman as possession getting handed back and forth (or taken by force)

Interesting though that Lllew Llau Gyffes is the Welsh equivalent of th Irish god Lugh? And from him springs Cu Chullainn (Welsh Culhwch) who eventually aids Arthur to get Caledfwlch (Excalibur).

Intertwining, or what?

Aye, look at the geography though. Sea roads back and forth across the Irish sea as well as the channel, main arteries of communication. The land routes slower and at the mercy of natural barriers. Never heard of the Hound/Culhwch parallel before. Will look at it more. Culhwch and Olwen...is that the one with the big scary pig?

Paul wrote: "Interesting though that Lllew Llau Gyffes is the Welsh equivalent of th Irish god Lugh? And from him springs Cu Chullainn (Welsh Culhwch) who eventually aids Arthur to get Caledfwlch (Excalibur).

..."

Paul, can't find any connection between them. You got any sources? Although the names are slightly similar to look at in English they have no similarity in origin (Cúchulainn was born Setanta and became Cúchulainn - the Hound Of Culainn - after killing a big dog whilst playing the hurling and offering to act as stand-in mutt; Culhwch, as far as I can figure means Born In A Pigstye), as to the stories I can't find any crossover point. Anyone else any ideas?

I've heard of the Lugh/Llew parallel ( I think it is pretty widely accepted) but not the Cuchulainn/Culhwch. I understand the etymology of Culhwch to be the same as you described it, Barbarossa. 'Ci' is modern Welsh for dog, I don't know about medieval Welsh. Culhwch's story certainly has a piggy theme with the giant boar he has to chase to win his bride (with a bit of help from cousin Arthur).

Barbarossa, it was a while ago, I'll see if I can dig up the sources - no pun intended :)