History Buffs United discussion

Here's the place to discuss nomads and warrior bands, even empires, that don't belong under the Dark Ages or Mythology—most notably but not exclusively Turks, Tatars, and Mongols.

Loved the series on Atilla by Iggulden, even better than the ones on Ceaser.

Iggulden writes on Genghis but rarely have two historical figures so resembled each other. That's an idea put in my head by Rene Grousset The Empire of the Steppes: A History of Central Asia but I think they exhibit their ancient kinship.

I'm in a group read of William Napier's Attila at the moment. I have a couple of Attila novels, unread, and to be honest I've been suspicious of them. But this one I'm quite a fan of so far.

I'd like to invite fans of nomad fiction to these Listopia lists -- which are in their infancy. Add books, people, I beg you.

Steppe fiction:
http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/18...

Genghis Khan novels:
http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/18...

And we certainly need more lists. I've started or voted on non-fiction lists too, shall I put those here?

Bryn and John,
Have you read The Lord of the Horses: Vol. 3 in the Wodan Trilogy by Diana Paxson? Attila is a major character. I remember enjoying it a lot years ago.

The real title is The Lord of Horses.

Note that Paxson tends to take a while to get going. Give her 50 pages or so, even 100, and she will sweep you up.

Bryn, thanks for the links to the Listopia lists. I will check them out.

The Paxson inspired by Attila's later incarnation in The Nibelungenlied and its cousins. I'm fascinated by Attila's afterlife in these medieval tales. Like to find a study on how he evolved in European memory.

It's on my to-find list, the Diana Paxson. Stephan Grundy Rhinegold is another on the story; I have that, don't much like the looks of it, but I've often been wrong. He also has Attila's Treasure.

Do you know 'The Tarim Mummies' by J.P. Mallory & Victor H. Mair.

Archeology of a Caucasian people who bordered China along the northern silk road and align with people on the steppe (if memory serves).

The Tarim Mummies: Ancient China and the Mysteries of the Earliest Peoples from the West. Thanks for that.

Here's Wiki on the Tarim mummies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_mu...

And on the Pazyryk burials:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazyryk_...

Amazing, what's dug up in these areas.

Amen!

I was fortunate to visit our local natural science museum's hosting a tour of those findings. 'Got to see a mummy of a stunning female mummy whose hair and clothes appeared to be - well, alive and new. All the artifacts were amazing.

I finally remembered the name of the novel about Genghis Khan I read years ago. It's "Ruler of the Sky" by Pamela Sargent. It's told from the points of view of the women in Genghis's life--and there were a lot of them. I was not able to finish it, as the violence and abuse got to me after awhile--as well as the casual acceptence of it be everyone in the book.

Ah yes. I've read that, through to the end. It was heavily violent, and in particular, with sexual violence. I remember rape, rape and rape again, from start to finish.

Ruler Of The Sky: A Novel of Genghis Khan

I know Pamela Sargent from her old sf days, 'Women of Wonder' and so on. Because I liked her sf/fantasy, which is no doubt her major sphere, I feel I can say, I don't think she did especial steppe research to write her Genghis novel. It's what it is.

A friend sent me this link to a six hour podcast on the Mongols. I won't have time to listen to it, but I thought maybe someone on this thread would.

http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php?pag...

Who's seen 'The Story of the Weeping Camel'?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0373861/
2005 documentary/story. It went the rounds of foreign-language cinemas, even one near me. Perhaps has done most towards world knowledge of Mongolian cinema. It is gorgeous, in a quiet way. The music--always a wonderful feature in Mongolian films--this time has a crucial part in the plot.

More random nomad bits. --One for CP at least. The steppe epic that has to have the most women fighters in it.

"Kyrk Kyz/Qiz" or "Forty Maidens". Karakalpak (Uzbekistan). A late epic; the bad guy is the Persian Nadir Shah, whose historical invasion happened in 1740.

Potted plot: Gulaim, at 15, rejects her suitors and wishes to live apart from her kin, as a warrior. She takes up residence on an island, where she has built a bronze fortress and brings in forty girls, whom she instructs in the arts of war. They make orchards and flower gardens on the island too.

Gulaim and the young hero Aryslan have dreams of each other--though they haven't met--and thus fall in love. (Britomart, Spenser's warrior girl, falls in love through a vision). Nadir Shah invades. Aryslan's sister Altynaj, another wonder of beauty and courage, is his right-hand fighter. Nadir Shah, who lusts after the sister, accuses them of incest to undo them. The brother, disgraced, hoofs off to the desert solitudes; but his people don't believe the slander and choose his sister to lead them in the war.

Then we have war. Gulaim's deeds--she kills the enemy champion in single combat. At last Aryslan and Gulaim meet in other than a dream. He joins her Forty Girls; they win the war and marry. Gulaim still has to rescue the sister Altynaj from Nadir Shah's lusty clutches. The End.

---
The strong romance in the story and the folk-humour, I read, mark it as late. I can't find much on this except in two books I have on steppe epic. No way it's translated into English. Bet it is in Russian.

Anyone have any updates on the sequel to the movie Mongol that came out a few years ago? I had thought I read it would be a series of movies but I never have been able to find anything out about any further titles.

Bryn, I'll keep an eye open for it. I bet it has been translated into Russian. In fact, when I have a minute I will run a search on Rambler, the Russian Google. The title would be something like "Sorok devits."

Tim, I too heard that Sergei Bodrov, the director of Mongol, planned at least a trilogy on Genghis. He was supposed to begin filming the sequel, Genghis Khan, in 2011 in China, Kazakhstan, Germany, and Mongolia. The last one took a while, I think, so perhaps the new film will arrive soon.

I hope it does. I liked the first film a lot, despite the gore and Bodrov's historical "flexibility."

Sandra, thanks for the podcast link. Six hours? Yikes! What were they thinking?!

Thanks C.P. I have looked online a number of times for the film but couldn't find any evidence so far that filming had ever started. I know not perfect in accuracy but the film was very enjoyable and even loved by friends and family not into steppe and nomad history.

Sergei Bodrov's 'Mongol': I think of this as true in spirit, even where not true in facts. True in spirit is what matters. It won't be less accurate than most historical novels. I'm a fan and keeping my eyes peeled for activity from him.

If you find anything let us know, I can't wait for a sequel, if sequel is the right term for a story about more of his life.

So another question, does steppe history include stories about the Silk Road? And a second question, are there good novels set against the backdrop of the Silk Road, the often long vanished lands that were once part of it (if memory serves much of those lands were once Buddhist where now they are, if inhabited at all, Muslim)?

Still on Bodrov. I hope Jamukha turns up in the sequel. Strictly he shouldn't, but Bodrov isn't strict, Jamukha got off alive last time and it's what he's known for in the source: turns up like a bad penny. He was trif. By a Chinese character actor.

The Silk Road was always a great intersection of religions. And the road they travelled on, too. (For an intro on that, Religions of the Silk Road sets out to tell you what a melting-pot of religions it was. Was: the last chapter is 'A Melting-Pot No More').

Yes, include the Silk Road in steppe discussions.

I loved Mongol over all. I need to watch my copy again.

I had seen Religions of the Silk Road pop up quite a bit in my searches for good books on the subject. Is it a daunting book for a non-expert?

Tim wrote: "Is it a daunting book for a non-expert?"

No, that's why I recced it here! It's 186 pages, easy and fun. And yet no end of informative.

Cool, then high on my list of books to purchase and at some point actually read!

There is one documentary on Genghis that I can recommend. It's the only one, so cock your ears. We know TV is rubbish history, and most of the internet too.

Ed Balazgette, 'Genghis Khan', BBC, 2005.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460806/

It's a drama documentary. But the drama is straight from 'The Secret History of the Mongols'. Now, the Secret History runs out when we get to the conquests--and there, without material, the doco tails off. Into the usual sensationalist twaddle, to be rudely honest. But for Temujin's life on the steppe--the time period covered by Bodrov's film--it's faithful.

Yes, the Silk Road is fascinating—and vital to steppe life. The Silk Road was where the money was, what the Mongols and all their descendants (and precursors) sought to control. It's also the source of a rich and vibrant Irano-Chinese culture, of which my Tatars were a part.

As for fiction, well, you might read Bryn's novels, and my Golden Lynx. ;)

A buddy of mine is also translating a Silk Road series from Russia; I will let you know when it comes out. And I have A Bride's Story, Vol. 1 (there are three more volumes to date) on my wish list, but I have yet to read it, so I cannot recommend it just yet.

Do read Religions of the Silk Road, though. It's great, and not an insomnia cure at all. Life along the Silk Road is also really good.

I read Life Along the Silk Road and really enjoyed it. I wish there were more books out there like that one. I will definitely get both Religions of the Silk Road and the Golden Lyxn. So much to read, so little time!

I would love a great novel on the Silk Road. I read one several years ago, and it wasn't great (notice I don't even remember the title?)

I've always imagined a huge epic of a group of people traveling from China to Constantinople (or vice verce). Or an shorter journey in an earlier time. As soon as I get the time, knowledge and research skills, I'll be sure to write it :)

I have given a lot of thought to a fantasy Silk Road setting novel. I hope the lack of books out there means it is an untapped resource, not a lack of interest!

Ignorance, more than lack of interest, I think. People have no idea. Go for it, I say.

Tim, thank you. You may also like Christopher Beckwith's Empires of the Silk Road: A History of Central Eurasia from the Bronze Age to the Present. Several specialist historians I know panned it for not getting the details right, but I liked it. The book is an extended think piece, interesting and well written. I could have used more specifics on the Central Eurasian cultural complex, but the idea is fascinating.

Some friends and I on Facebook discussed that very topic today, why fantasy fiction does not seem to take advantage of non-Western settings. Some thought the right story had not come along, some though the majority of readers just go with what they are familiar with (a European setting), while others think publishers play it safe and go with what sells. Personally, I think it is a combination of all three.

Thanks for the other recommendation. Another book to add to the reading list for research purposes.

Sandra wrote: "I've always imagined a huge epic of a group of people traveling from China to Constantinople"

What era, then, Sandy?
I am attached my Yule-Cordier edition of Marco Polo. Put out by Dover in two vols. It is the most annotated text in existence. Old notes, yes, from old explorers and old scholarship -- Yule is 1903, Cordier added in 1920. But they just don't annotate so luxuriantly any more, and the notes are full of wonders, more so than the Polo.

The Travels of Marco Polo, Volume I: The Complete Yule-Cordier Edition

I know of very little Silk Road fiction. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, means I've stuck to non-fic. Here's a few. I haven't read them. One or two I've sampled and said no thanks to. Still.

Michael Chabon Gentlemen of the Road: A Tale of Adventure. Don't know how far they travel, but they escort a member of the Khazar royal family.

Jeanne Larsen Silk Road. I have this. Looks fairly China-set, in spite of the title. Seems to be fantasy. Tang period.

Colin Falconer Silk Road. Purports to deal with Qaidu's daughter. She has a romance with an ex-Templar.

I bought a copy a while back of Gentlemen of the Road, yet to read it. I like the author, Chabon, as I have read one of his other books. The other two I am not familiar with. As much as I like China, I wish they would focus more on the steppes and the cities and nations of Central Asia. Thanks for the suggestions.

That's what I wish. I'm not in search of China settings. I have one on the go at the moment: Journey of the North Star about the Yongle Emp of Ming who marches on the Mongol remnants, but of course I'd so much more enjoy being on the other side of the story. I feel stifled by eunuchs and formality and haven't got far, though seems a fine novel.

If you're going to read the Colin Falconer...

Here's Jack Weatherford on Qaidu's daughter: 'The Wrestler Princess' http://www.laphamsquarterly.org/round...

Qutulun and Qaidu himself both absolutely fascinating people--the kind there ought to be ten novels on, at least. Qaidu's revolt has been seen as the last stand of traditional Mongol values, as the lifestyle changed and Khubilai went Chinese.

Bryn wrote: "Sandra wrote: "I've always imagined a huge epic of a group of people traveling from China to Constantinople"

What era, then, Sandy?
I am attached my Yule-Cordier edition of Marco Polo. Put out by..."

I think the 7th century would be the most fun. Lots of things were happening in central Asia, and Tang dynysty China and Constantinople at the height of the Byzantine Empire would both be amazing settings for each end of the journey.

I could imagine the remanants of a once-powerful Byzntine family fleeing the empire after a coup, and heading east along the trade routes to rebuild their family fortune (or find the missing reletive who went east years ago and was never seen since.)

Or maybe the same kind of thing, but with a Chinese family heading west. At least one character would have to be a skilled trader just to showcase the myriad of things that were made, bought and sold along the Silk Road. Another character would have to be a scholar, to show the diversity of religion, culture and history to be picked up on that same journey.

Any takers? You write it and I'll read it!

Beauty (as we say in Australia). I'll read it too, but I'm booked up to 2020 on the writing...

You gotta consult Sogdian Traders: A History (Handbook of Oriental Studies): tells you everything there is to know about the trading community between Samarkand and China, from the 5th to the 8th centuries. And how and why that contact shrivelled up in the 9th and 10th.

And on that time frame... If any person knows of any novel to feature An Lushan and his revolt in Tang, do tell me. (And if not, why not?)

Thanks for that Bryn, I remember coming across something on the female wrestler a few different times in my readings.

So what is the major civilization then between China and say the Byzantine Empire on the Silk Road (that was not nomadic)? Was it Samarkand?

The major civilization of the Silk Road is Persia (Iran). All of Central Asia is heavily influenced by classic Persian art and culture, even now. Their Islam is Sunni, not Shi'i, but strongly favoring Sufism, so moderate and leaning toward a kind of fused traditional/mystical spirituality.

Samarkand is certainly a central point, but the civilization is a mix of Chinese, Mongol/Tatar/Turk, and Persian. That's what makes it so fascinating. And the Persian precedes Islam, so parts of it are Zoroastrian.

There are flashes of Judaism and Nestorian Christianity in the mix, too.

Ok, I realize now I said civilization and meant not only that, but political entities. What are the major city-states, nation-states, or other political groupings of the Silk Road in its hey day?

It varies a lot, Tim, depending on which period you're talking about. You may want to check The Silk Road in World History to get a good overview.

Thanks for the recommendation. Another book to add to the list.

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post it, but I've just published a novella in my Kalie's Journey universe which deals with life on the steppes, and later, life in the settled land to the west, from the point of view of the daughter of a nomad chief.

People have commented (and rightly so, I fear) that I show only the negative side of steppes culture. I hope I have at least somewhat corrected that here.

http://www.amazon.com/Oathbreakers-Da...

I am writing a novel in which the Qashqai, a tribal nomadic people from southern Iran, play a significant part. Anyone have any good sources of background info on the Qashqai?

Patrick wrote: "I am writing a novel in which the Qashqai, a tribal nomadic people from southern Iran, play a significant part. Anyone have any good sources of background info on the Qashqai?"

Truly?
I think I only have travel books on the Qashqai. Except that their tribal politics features, very interestingly, in this book, along with other nomads of Iran: Pastoralists: Equality, Hierarchy, And The State. If you need to know how tribes operate, internal function & relations with settled states, it's great. He'd send you to anthropology on the subject in his bibliography.

Lois Beck, an anthropologist, has two books on the Qashqai, one of which is Nomad: A Year In the Life of a Qashqa'i Tribesman in Iran and currently in print. Search for the book on Amazon.com, and the recommendation engines will toss up other titles.

Anatoly Khazanov's Nomads and the Outside World is a good study of nomadic life in general, not the Qashqai in particular.

There is another book kicking at the edges of my brain—a travelogue, but a historical one. If it stops playing hide-and-seek, I will post again.

Bryn, have you seen this one: The Stories of the Great Steppe: The Anthology of Modern Kazakh Literature?

Way too pricey, alas, but I thought of you right away!

C.P. wrote: "Bryn, have you seen this one...?"

Thanks, new to me. What an expensive paperback. Must be because "it can be used in courses on..."