Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion

This is the thread to discuss the June 2015 Ancient Era Group Read of Dawn Of Empire by Sam Barone

I read this a long time ago and it is still one of my favorite books.

Fell free to participate in the discussion as other share their thoughts Keith

I am going with the ancient history selection for June. I'm in about 80 pages and really enjoying it so far. Good character development in a surprisingly short number of pages.

I'm so happy to see this title for the June discussion! I'm a huge fan of this author (I was considering starting a discussion thread of his books in the Bronze and Iron Ages discussion section on this site) but now I see we get to have a whole group read of his first book.

Looking forward to contributing when the discussion gets going :)

A couple of things which peeked my interest in this book is my interest in Mesopotamia and the dichotomy or the reviews. It seemed to have either 5 star or 1 star ratings with not a lot in between.

I have just finished the Prologue and thus far I am enjoying it.

The whole thing with the Five Families makes me think of The Godfather and La Costa Nostra. The gathering of the Five Families sounds like something from the Mafia.

Silver wrote: "The whole thing with the Five Families makes me think of The Godfather and La Costa Nostra. The gathering of the Five Families sounds like something from the Mafia."

I'm not entirely sure that's an accident, Silver. The settled folk in this world aren't the idealistic, enlightened equality-minded people we find in other "farmer vs. horsemen" books by authors like Mary Mackey, Judith Tarr and Brenda Gates Smith.

Barone's take on village life was that it was great for those who held the power, and the means to keep it. For everyone else...not so great. The biggest difference between the government of Orak and 20th century NYC is that in New York, the ruling families had the law in their pocket. In Orak, the ruling families WERE the law.

Oligarchies were common in early civilization, and I can't think of a better reason for the ruling families to all a meeting than being faced with annihilation :)

How are you guys finding this read? I remember it being utterly captivating. I loved the intricate detail of Eskkar and Trella's rise, and Orak's gradual transformation.

It isn't one I have wanted to read. The comments by members here make me more interested however.

I think you'll get a good feel for it quickly, Terri. If it's your cup of tea you just won't stop reading. If not, you'll know within 50 pages or so.

Sandra wrote: "Silver wrote: "The whole thing with the Five Families makes me think of The Godfather and La Costa Nostra. The gathering of the Five Families sounds like something from the Mafia."

I'm not entirel..."

That is interesting


(view spoiler)[ I do like the way the auther gives a more realistic view of the Village life and human nature in general. Itnstead of shiwing an idealistic/romanticized view in which everyone is living in a utopia the author shows the corruption, power struggles, injustices and hiw the village had its own hierarchy.

Some of the reviews gave the impression that the book was very black and white: Farmers= Good Barbarians= Bad.

Though unless you count Eskkar thus far the barbarians don't seem to have any redeeming qualities beyond the fact they are simply living and surviving according to their own way of life and the only way they know. The village at least seems to be balanced between the good and the bad.

Also I like how practicle minded Trella is. At first I thought the whole slave falling in love with her master who is uncommonly liberal in his treatment of her was a bit cliched. But I liked her thought process and reasoning behind her decision to accept Eskkar and bow she uses it as an oppertunity for herself. (hide spoiler)]

I'm in 20 chapters. Although I'm enjoying the story, I feel it is fairly predictable. I'll hold off on more specific comments until later in the month to avoid revealing too much.

Guy--I look forward to your comments.

Silver--I agree with most of what you said in your spoiler section. I'd like to address one aspect of what you said, since it doesn't give anything away, and is made clear in the first few chapters.

I can't understand anyone who sees the book as good guys = farmers, bad guys = horse tribes.

There were moments when I didn't like anyone in this book :) Other times, I thought the author might like the horse tribes better than the farmers, even though the farmers were the people I thought we were supposed to sympathize with.

Both cultures accepted slavery, something I can never accept among "good guys". As a historical note, in every culture in which slavery was practiced, there have been individuals who opposed it.

We see a little of this in Trella (my favorite character). She retains believable amounts of compassion and empathy, while at the same time focusing on what's best for her. She at least demonstrates it's possible to be both realistic and nice.

Sandra wrote: "Guy--I look forward to your comments.

Silver--I agree with most of what you said in your spoiler section. I'd like to address one aspect of what you said, since it doesn't give anything away, and..."

I agree that Trella is a well balanced character. While it is true that in every culture and period of time there were people who were more progressive thinkers I feel that many HF writers try too hard to make their characters appeal to modern sensibilities.

But Trella's sympathies and her behavior and actions are believable and they are understandable considering her own experiences and background.

Here are my comments after reading Dawn of Empire.
(view spoiler)[This is the first month I have switched to an ancient history selection and I enjoyed reading Dawn of Empire. I believe Sam Baron’s writing in the book is very good. The narrative is well organized, keeps the reader's interest page to page, and many of his details are excellent related to the siege preparations and battles. Futhermore, Barone brings to life the daily activities of the common people. The 500 or so pages flew by.

My only reservation is related to the continuous successes of Eskkar and Trella. Yes, an assassin stabs Trella and Eskkar approached near death in his battle with Thutmose-sin. However, it seems that every “card” played by the two heroes is a winner. Everything falls into place at each step with nominal adversity. Maybe the plot hinges on Trella truly being a “gifted one” and/or the two lovers were destined with great fortune. Nevertheless, it is a good read even though many of the events become somewhat predictable. (hide spoiler)]

I have to admit that as the story progresses Trella starts to grate on my nerves. She is too nauseatingly perfect at everything she does.

(view spoiler)[ And while the pressence of sex doesn't bother me in books. I don't find it the least bit offensive but I don't think it is necessary to have Trella and Eskkar getting their freak on at least once in almost every chapter. It is getting old and I am just like, ok I get it they are hot for each other, so can we move on to something else now? (hide spoiler)]

Silver wrote: "I have to admit that as the story progresses Trella starts to grate on my nerves. She is too nauseatingly perfect at everything she does.
"

I know where you're coming from. I think Trella is a clever character, but almost too clever. She's quite young IIRC (19 or so?) and surely she would still be making a fair few mistakes and errors of judgement at that age (ha - as if we ever stop doing that!). Maybe it would have helped if she had a few more flaws to her makeup.

Still, I love the symbiotic nature of Trella and Eskarr's relationship. I guess the fact that they need each other shows that both are flawed/imperfect.

Gordon wrote: "Silver wrote: "I have to admit that as the story progresses Trella starts to grate on my nerves. She is too nauseatingly perfect at everything she does.
"

I know where you're coming from. I thin..."

Yeah that is the other thing that bothered me is her rather young age. Even if women were expected to marry young back then I cannot quite believe she really learned everything there was to know about running a noble household in so short a time.

I agree with all of you. Trella seemed too perfect and much older than described (I think she was more like 16). However, that doesn't stop me from enjoying her many impossible victories and brilliant ideas.

Eskarr is more believable to me, simply because he is clearly flawed, and has to do a lot of growing and changing before he starts winning.

One thing I am a bit dissapointed about is the fact that I had hoped the book would shft point of views between Orak and the barbarians. I thought we would see more of the barbarians but it seems the story is staying focused on Orak.

(view spoiler)[ And I think the prerations for the battle are dragging on a bit long now. I am still enjoying the book but parts of it I am starting to find wearisome (hide spoiler)]

You get to see the barbarian viewpoint more in some of the author's other books. One of the reasons I enjoy his writing so much is that his viewpoint is often the mirror image of mine. We both write about the clash between farmers and horsemen, but my books have a feminist, peace-nik viewpoint, and his are more patriarchy and military.

I'd like to comment on the ending, but I have to go find out how to hide a spoiler first!