The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Please start our discussion here. If you've read ahead, please be aware of spoilers and mark them as such. I will be posting my comments and discussion questions later today.

Thanks Deborah. HoM is considered to be a very good example of American Naturalism and I have posted some commom naturalistic themes to look out for on the Background thread. Do Wharton's descriptions of New York socialites ring true today or are the lives of film/TV stars, as described by the media, more relevant?

MadgeUK wrote: "Thanks Deborah. HoM is considered to be a very good example of American Naturalism and I have posted some commom naturalistic themes to look out for on the Background thread. Do Wharton's descript..."

I'd say more like NY socialites, but those socialites many times also include celebrities. Many celebs, writers, etc. have a home in NYC.

Wharton wrote this book in her home, The Mount, in Lenox, Massachusetts. She chose the land on which it lays, designed the garden, and designed the home.

In these chapters she shows us many comparisons: male vs. female, married woman vs. marriageable woman, servant vs. strapped woman (a different form of servitude), rich vs. poor, and freedom vs. constraint/prison/cage. In Chapter 3, we learn a bit of Lily's background. Her mother appears to have spent money without regard for the family's finances; putting great stress on her father to earn money. I was reminded of Madame Bovary at this point in the story. Lily has been told since she was young that there were certain things one just must have, and her beauty would be her marketable commodity to security.

Everything Lily does appears to be a performance with a goal in mind. I'm not sure even Lily know the real Lily beyond her schemes. She is starting to age (she is 29) and finds her prospects are becoming limited. Her bills continue to pile up. She gambles what little she has to keep up appearances. She feels great pressure to find financial security as she says she is not made to be poor.

Some questions to get our discussion going. Remember, answering them is optional. A lively discussion is the goal.

1. "She was so evidently the victim of the civilization which had produced her that the links of her bracelet seemed like the manacles chaining her to her fate." (Chapter 1) What is Wharton telling us about the lives of women? Is it reflective of her own life?

2. "Why must a girl pay so dearly for her least escape from routine?" (Chapter 2). How does reputation and appearance differ for married women vs unmarried? Men vs women?

3. Which creates the outcome, a person's actions or his/her destiny? Which does Wharton seem to believe?

4. "Under the flitter of their opportunities, she saw the poverty of their achievements." (Chapter 5) What does this indicate about the wealthy of society?

5. Is Selden a good or bad influence on Lily?

Deborah wrote: "4. "Under the flitter of their opportunities, she saw the poverty of their achievements." (Chapter 5) What does this indicate about the wealthy of society?..."

Also, what does it mean? Is the statement intended to apply equally to earned wealth and inherited wealth? What about wed wealth?

Lily wrote: "Deborah wrote: "4. "Under the flitter of their opportunities, she saw the poverty of their achievements." (Chapter 5) What does this indicate about the wealthy of society?..."

Also, what does it m..."

To me it seemed Lily (the character) was referring to the individuals at dinner.

Deborah wrote: "To me it seemed Lily (the character) was referring to the individuals at dinner...."

It never seemed to me that dear Lily Bart saw very clearly. Maybe, but probably not a spoiler: (view spoiler)[ And I understand that is harsh and prossibly unfair. Just one of the characters in literature who is not among my favorites, even though the story is fairly powerful. I'll be curious to see who has more empathy than I do for her and why. (hide spoiler)]

But we're so different you know : she likes being good, and I like being happy...

Light Edwardian applause for all us old maids of twenty-nine... ;)

I had forgotten just how much I love this book. I think I may have been Lily Bart in another life. I'm not exactly certain you're meant to empathize with Lily's character. She's not meant to be likeable, she's merely meant to be experienced. Which I love, my favorite characters are always the grey characters you're not certain how you feel about.

...her bracelet seemed like the manacles chaining her to her fate

That line is so perfect, one of the reasons Edith Wharton is my favorite American author. It describes Lily perfectly in that moment, and in a way it foreshadows so much of the entire storyline. It's almost similar, and yet the antithesis of Dorian Gray's portrait - another of my favorites.

Another thing I love about Wharton's writing, she's very frank about the restrictions placed on both women and men by society. Most of the more puritanical ideas about victorian and early-twentieth century society belong to the middle class. The real disparity was between married and unmarried women, with unmarried women having to be far more guarded in their behavior in order to remain highly eligible. After marriage, affairs, etc. were far more tolerated on both sides as long as they remained discreet, but Wharton was open about the dangers both men and women faced if they became careless - more openly discussed in the Age of Innocence.

"Under the flitter of their opportunities, she saw the poverty of their achievements." - For me, this always meant she saw a society that had gained much, while achieving little and waisting many the opportunities present to them. Much like today, so few take advantage of the wealth of opportunities we are privileged with in this part of the world.

"She was so evidently the victim of the civilization which had produced her that the links of her bracelet seemed like the manacles chaining her to her fate."
What a perfect expression of the situation Lily is in. She has been "raised" to a certain lifestyle then finds it almost impossible to keep up with it. She has none of the tools she would need to survive in any other way than marry into riches.

Unlike many others, I do feel for Lily. She is in the worst of situations because she completely understands what her situation is. It is somewhat like having a disease that leaves you unable to move or speak but in which you are completely aware of yourself and everything that goes on around you. Better, some would argue, to be vacuous and not understand or care.

Men, of course, are much freer, but even the men are caught to some degree on this same treadmill. If you are not from the right set, it is very difficult to get into this society. Married women have a greater degree of latitude, but unmarried women are caught in unbelievable strictures. The ultimate paradox: To earn any freedom they must marry and give up all individuality.

Which creates the outcome, a person's actions or his/her destiny? It is a mix of both. If you are not born into the right family, you have almost zero chance of attaining acceptance, but even when born correctly, actions can play a large part in success. Lily's mother and father were born into the right strata, but Lily's mother placed them in the economic straits that plague Lily's life. That Lily appears to follow her mother's lead is all the sadder, since she has first hand knowledge of how detrimental that can be.

"Under the flitter of their opportunities, she saw the poverty of their achievements." Made me think of The Great Gatsby. The "born wealthy" are snobbish toward those who have attained wealth, but the "born wealthy" do nothing productive with the wealth they possess. Their lives seem empty and amoral and much of their time is spent in shallow pursuits like gambling and plotting the ruin of others.

Selden is one of my favorite characters in this novel. He sees the world as it is, but he is not as cold and cynical as Lily has become. He is what Lily might have been, had she been a man: a person without great wealth but still with choices.

Once I began reading this book I was unable to stop...so instead of reading along with the group, I finished it immediately. I am showing great self-restraint in trying to hold myself to those impressions I might have had by the time I had only reached chapter 5. This book is marvelous and it would make my list of favorites easily. I am bummed that I did not discover the charms of Wharton earlier on in my life.

Marie wrote: "For me, this always meant she saw a society that had gained much, while achieving little and wasting many the opportunities present to them. Much like today, so few take advantage of the wealth of opportunities we are privileged with in this part of the world. "

So true, and with greater wealth seems to come an insatiable appetite for more...both then and now. Wharton seemed to recognize the shallowness of so many things beyond the realm of need. I would equate this with some people I know who seem to need big screen TVs in every room and remotes that let them stop the action in one room and resume it in another. They cannot even spare the time to actually sit and enjoy the things they possess. None of Wharton's very rich seem to be very happy.

Sara wrote: ""She was so evidently the victim of the civilization which had produced her that the links of her bracelet seemed like the manacles chaining her to her fate."
What a perfect expression of the situ..."

I, too, have empathy for Lily, and am enjoying Selden. He's like a breath of fresh air among all the games and poses.

Sara wrote: "Marie wrote: "For me, this always meant she saw a society that had gained much, while achieving little and wasting many the opportunities present to them. Much like today, so few take advantage of ..."

I have to wonder if this is a reflection in her own life. She was born to wealth and married wealth.

Deborah wrote: "I have to wonder if this is a reflection in her own life. She was born to wealth and married wealth."

She certainly understood the world she was writing about. I wonder if she had a hard time getting her contemporaries to take her writing seriously. Just a pastime for a bored socialite?

Sara wrote: "The ultimate paradox: To earn any freedom they must marry and give up all individuality..."

That is the perfect way of putting it, and to an extent true for both sides. Men gained no real freedom from their families, but gained the same freedom of discretion once they had the suitable wife and marriage. Of course for women that freedom came with losing your individuality to your husbands family. Not that anyone within society was allowed true individuality outside the outwardly acceptable expectations.

"...with greater wealth seems to come an insatiable appetite for more...

Deborah wrote : I have to wonder if this is a reflection in her own life. She was born to wealth and married wealth...

Yes, too much is never enough. The wealthy are so busy gaining more for the sake of appearance, what they have loses any value it may have once held, if any at all. The middle class work themselves to death so they can gain more - usually for the sake of appearance - and they don't have the time to enjoy what they've gained.

I do believe Edith Wharton was writing about much of her own life, which is the reason why it's believed her family may have inspired the phrase Keeping up with the Joneses. While her novels do contain some really funny moments, they are a very serious criticism of the society she lived in, often with a heavy dose of thinly-veiled cynicism.

It would be interesting to have lived then, and have seen the reaction to her novels beyond critic's reviews. I have to imagine they must have been popular amongst the upper middle class - especially so they could bash the society they were secretly dying to break into. And maybe amongst other members of her society that felt much the same way she did. Probably not amongst those who her books "showed their own shame", or may have found themselves represented through her characters...

I see a modern parallel in Lily's (or Miss Bart, as we should call her!) case and anyone trying to apply for a job. You must keep your appearance up, by buying suits and portfolios and purses, and you need a car and gas, etc, etc. Your bills continue to pile up, but you must buy things. You need to socialize with the right people and keep your reputation up (references!).

The quote about the bracelet being a manacle:
Remember, a bracelet can always be removed. A very subtle foreshadowing.

Teresa wrote: "The quote about the bracelet being a manacle:
Remember, a bracelet can always be removed. A very subtle foreshadowing."

Great observation! You are right about the modern parallel as well. Not the least horrible part of having to marry for money would be that you would be required to sleep with the man you married and bear his children regardless of how unattractive you might find him. No wonder affairs were so common and (when sufficiently discreet) tolerated among the married.

In Chap 1 we are led suppose, before it is stated, that Rosedale is a Jew by the reference to 'his race' and that being seen with Lily was 'money in his pocket' and again later 'with that mixture of artistic sensibility and business astuteness which characterises his race'.

This reminded me of Trollope's oblique references to Jews and the prejudices of the period (any period?) and I wonder how it will feature in Wharton.

Also in Chap 1 Lily 'began to cut the pages of a novel', something we do not have to do today but which was once commonplace. Here is an explanation and a video:

http://www.abebooks.com/blog/index.ph...

MadgeUK wrote: "Also in Chap 1 Lily 'began to cut the pages of a novel', something we do not have to do today but which was once commonplace. Here is an explanation and a video:

http://www.abebooks.com/blog/index..."

I have some older editions of Hardy and George Moore where I've had to cut the pages. A strange experience for a modern reader.

I have read in other novels where people had their little paper knife and cut the pages, and then used the knife as a bookmark.
I use strange things as bookmarks, but never kitchen utensils! hehe

Deborah wrote: "Is Selden a good or bad influence on Lily?"

I liked this question. My first impulse was to answer that he is a good influence, because he has a very practical view on Lily's aspírations, amd calls her out on them being just that, wishes she can make true or pass on as well. And my very modern perspective is reflected on that: who says she NEEDS a husband and money? Feminism is a thing, right? But it wasn't back then.

So I'm going to say he is neither good nor bad. He seems to be neither well or bad off, which puts him in a nice position to look at high society with detachment. It looks like he is going to be a somewhat impartial judge of the going-ons in this group of people.

Marie wrote: "...I would kill for an edition of any Thomas Hardy so old I had to cut the pages...."

Well, Marie, I hope not quite! [lol]

(The old fuddy duddy in me always quoted John 1 -- in the beginning was the Word -- when my son used "kill" lightly. But, then, his caretaker bought him his first toy gun, not either of his parents.)

Marie wrote: "Lily wrote: "Marie wrote: "...I would kill for an edition of any Thomas Hardy so old I had to cut the pages...."

Well, Marie, I hope not quite! [lol] ..."

Well, maybe not quite... But this is Tho..."

Being it is Hardy, I will propose a dual...the winner getting the book of course. I am secretly hoping it is a copy of The Mayor of Casterbridge

Marie wrote: "Lily wrote: "Marie wrote: "...I would kill for an edition of any Thomas Hardy so old I had to cut the pages...."

Well, Marie, I hope not quite! [lol] ..."

Well, maybe not quite... But this is Tho..."

Too funny Marie. I found about a dozen titles published in the 1920s in England in a used bookstore for about $5 a book. One of my treasures.

On the Charing X Road or at Hay on Wye?

MadgeUK wrote: "On the Charing X Road or at Hay on Wye?"

Actually in Connecticut.

In chapter 2 Mrs. Gryce had a special edition of the Sarum Rule printed in rubric. Can someone tell me what that means? My kindle dictionary was no help on this one.

Cindy wrote: "In chapter 2 Mrs. Gryce had a special edition of the Sarum Rule printed in rubric. Can someone tell me what that means? My kindle dictionary was no help on this one."

The footnote in my edition says "The classic form of Christian liturgy in Latin used in England before the Protestant Refirmation and remaining the source of the modern Anglican or Episcopal liturgy."

Thank you, now I know what the Sarum rule is. Why is it significant to the story? I assume it was a rare, expensive book.

Cindy wrote, “Thank you, now I know what the Sarum rule is. Why is it significant to the story?”

It may be an indication that Mrs. Gryce is Catholic.

This is the Sarum Missal, a prayer said in Latin by a priest with responses by the congregation, drawn up by the Bishop of Sarum (=Salisbury) in the eleventh century. It was suppressed by the English Reformation and especially during the reign of Elizabeth I and became largely confined to certain monasteries.

http://www.justus.anglican.org/resour...

There have been various attempts to revive it in both catholic and Anglican churches and it had a brief resurgence during the time of the Oxford Movement in the 1830s when it was used in 'high', Anglo-catholic, churches. There are various translations of it and deciding which one to use has caused dissension.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/t...

Mrs Bryce gave a copy of The Sarum Rule to 'every clergyman in the diocese' which indicates that she was an Anglican still attached to the Anglo-catholic rites, and therefore a traditionalist.

Sara wrote:"Unlike many others, I do feel for Lily . . ."

I feel for her, too. I feel for all women of that time period, for their general lack of power over their own fates, and the constraining choices they were limited to: the few positions of menial employment allowed them, such as maid, housekeeper, governess, or seamstress; or marriage. However, I'm getting a little impatient with her vacillation. As much as I understand her lack of enthusiasm for Gryce, still, this is the lifestyle she claims that she must have. Since she's about to be thirty, she's had a good ten years to decide what she wants, and she does have a choice. She can choose to marry for love instead of wealth, but she seems pretty set on the wealth, and willing to dispense with the love.

What's frustrating is that Wharton makes it obvious that Lily is at her last prayers. Everything is waning for her--her beauty, her age, her finances, her mystique, and the number of eligible bachelors with the wealth she demands. This means that she knows better than anyone else how critical it is that she succeed in her goals, and yet she keeps making missteps, such as visiting Selden in his apartment--a move that could have ruined her beyond repair had it become known, and standing Gryce up for Selden. All of this would have been fine if it meant Lily had had an epiphany that money isn't everything, but no! She still has the same goal to marry money, but now she has just considerably lessened her chances of doing so. Lily knows that she has no room for errors, and yet she keeps making them--and unnecessary ones, at that. Maybe she will become a little more prudent in Chapter 8!

Cindy wrote: "Sara wrote:"Unlike many others, I do feel for Lily . . ."

I feel for her, too. I feel for all women of that time period, for their general lack of power over their own fates, and the constraining..."

Very well put. There are many who basically get in their own way from achieving their goals. Lily appears to be one of them.

I never heard of Edith Wharton before and I'm pleasantly surprised. To me Lily seems to be stuck in a superficial and empty life that she doesn't like, but also doesn't want to leave. She seems very much influenced by her mother, who became very bitter after the family became poor.

I look forward to see where the story will go, but fear it will not end well for Lily.

Harm wrote: "I never heard of Edith Wharton before and I'm pleasantly surprised. To me Lily seems to be stuck in a superficial and empty life that she doesn't like, but also doesn't want to leave. She seems ver..."

I'm very glad we introduced you to a new author. So much fun.

Deborah wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Sara wrote:"Unlike many others, I do feel for Lily . . ."

I feel for her, too. I feel for all women of that time period, for their general lack of power over their own fates, and th..."

I can't help feeling this is not really Lily's goal but the one society and her family have set for her. The alternative is not pleasant to think of and Lily has been raised to believe herself to be decorative and hasn't the kind of confidence and drive that would make her successful outside her expected role. She keeps stepping in her own way partly because she does not really want what she knows she is expected to want.

Sara wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Sara wrote:"Unlike many others, I do feel for Lily . . ."

I feel for her, too. I feel for all women of that time period, for their general lack of power over their o..."

I read it differently. I felt that Lily exercised a lot of agency (even though she was comparatively powerless) that the deficit was not with her but really and truly with a society that punished her whenever she acted on her own desires or diverged in any way from a pre-determined course. I felt that if this book is read a tragedy then Lily's fatal flaw is her inability to narrow herself quite as much as she needs to- that traces of moral qualm and integrity remain in what ought to just be the self-interest that would let her survive.

For example what's with Selden? He's not part of the plan at all. She gravitates toward him because of her agency as a human being that does irrational but emotionally genuine things. He is already starting to irritate me however even this early in the book

Stef wrote: "Sara wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Sara wrote:"Unlike many others, I do feel for Lily . . ."

I feel for her, too. I feel for all women of that time period, for their general lack of power..."

The need to narrow oneself is something's not Wharton herself would have experienced. Great observation,

Marie wrote: "To a great extent it is society and her mother's influence, but there is part of it that is Lily's own sense of vanity - which yes, was partly created by her mother. But she's worked herself into a..."

Please be careful of spoilers and mark them as such. I believe this is beyond Chapter 7.

Is anybody else struggling with Wharton's writing style? I feel like I am missing something, maybe just not understanding the high class life style. I am using Cliffnotes to get through this book.

Marie wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Marie wrote: "To a great extent it is society and her mother's influence, but there is part of it that is Lily's own sense of vanity - which yes, was partly created by her mother. B..."

There was something else that appeared later in chapter 12 or 13 in my edition that was mentioned. Just a reminder for all of us to be careful. We start those chapters tomorrow so it shouldn't be a big deal.

I do feel that it is about Lily narrowing herself. Like I said, her choices are very limited. Other than employment as a servant, she can either marry or be dependent on the charity of relatives for the rest of her life. Unfortunately, in that time period, that was the reality of the situation. These days, we are pleased when young girls show that they are intelligent, intellectually curious, and have a thirst for knowledge. In those days, it seems to have been more of a curse than anything else. Such intelligence only brought home the evils of their situation more sharply, while their thirst for knowledge was unlikely to be slaked, since a girl's education was not as extensive, or as important, as a boy's. It is patently unfair, but Lily is aware that these are her options. While her only path to success lies in marriage, and this is forced on her by society, she has choice within that stricture. It is her choice to limit herself to the super-rich. If she wants to make happiness of more import than comfort, she could broaden her expectations beyond those limiting her to the small pool of millionaires. She could abandon her dream of being filthy rich and settle for a modest lifestyle with a man she loves, but no! She turns her back on Selden to pursue Gryce, determined to land the big bank account. Just as she's about to reel Gryce in, she turns her attention once again to Selden, and loses her grip on Gryce. This is the way to lose both!

Cindy wrote: "Is anybody else struggling with Wharton's writing style? I feel like I am missing something, maybe just not understanding the high class life style. I am using Cliffnotes to get through this book."

I've read her before so haven't had much problem with it. There have been a few times where my attention wandered for a minute and I had to reread a sentence or two.

Cindy wrote: "I do feel that it is about Lily narrowing herself. Like I said, her choices are very limited. Other than employment as a servant, she can either marry or be dependent on the charity of relatives ..."

One of Lily's curses is that she is beautiful. If she were plain less would have been expected of her, but she is expected to "live up to her potential" and snare someone very rich. Those kinds of expectations have subtle pressures that come along with them. Unfortunately, the opinions of all these shallow people are what she has been trained to care for.

Sara wrote: "Cindy wrote: "I do feel that it is about Lily narrowing herself. Like I said, her choices are very limited. Other than employment as a servant, she can either marry or be dependent on the charity..."

Well said. Plus her mother taught her her beauty was her ticket to security

Cindy wrote: "Is anybody else struggling with Wharton's writing style? I feel like I am missing something, maybe just not understanding the high class life style. I am using Cliffnotes to get through this book."

Cindy - I don't know that it's the writing style, but I am having trouble with this book. For me, I think it's apathy because I'm having trouble identifying with Lily. I feel like I have little in common with her and am not invested in what happens next. I'm only in chapter 4 and wondering if I should keep pushing ahead or abandon the book, though I feel like I should read something by Wharton just so I can cross her off my list. :-(

Marion wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Is anybody else struggling with Wharton's writing style? I feel like I am missing something, maybe just not understanding the high class life style. I am using Cliffnotes to get thro..."

This book makes a slightly slow start, but the background information in the early chapters contribute very much to the understanding of the rest of the story. At Chapter 4 I would have said "It's OK" by the end I totally understood what has made Wharton a writer who has endured. Stick with it, I don't think you will be sorry you did.

Sara wrote: This book...
It's at times like these that I wish GR had a "like" button. But you've convinced me to stick with it, Sara.

I have read some of Wharton's short stories and I really liked them. For some reason I struggled with the House of Mirth. I almost pitched the book at chapter 6. The story picked up and I decided to press on. I think I am just having trouble identifying with the high class society.