The Malazan Fallen discussion

Spoilers up to chapter Two are ok.
Please mark any other spoilers using the spoiler tags. (when in doubt, use them).

Ladies and Gentlemen, introducing the one and the only.... Iskaral Pust!

Not read the chapter yet but we are already learning in the epigraph

There is some important historical event, important enough to have a book or essay written about it, called the Sha'ik Rebellion which has some relevance to this book; reading into the epigraph there is discontent in the countryside which some say Aren High Command was not aware of. Could this lead into the Rebellion and could we see it in this book?

Also, there is someone called Sha'ik who is significant enough to name a Rebellion after. We also know Sha'ik is very powerful but not everyone even knows that Sha'ik exists; not even all the big players re this exchange between Mappo & Icarium and Ryllandaras in ch1:

You would make Sha'ik your enemy?" Mappo asked.

The lead wolf [Ryllandaras in D'ivers form] cocked its head. The name means nothing to me.

The two travellers watched as the wolves padded off, vanishing once again into a gloom of sorcery. Mappo showed his teeth, then sighed, and Icarium nodded, giving voice to their shared thought. "It will soon."



We've already seen a snub from the Aren High Command to one of its new Fists but this particular historian thinks that there isn't just incompetence or spitefulness going on but active treachery; even perhaps (view spoiler)[the suggestion of collusion with the Rebellion. [I used tags here but I do think this suggestion is right there in the text so isn't really a spoiler] (hide spoiler)] One to watch.

Also, I love that when "quoting" these in-world texts that SE uses standard quoting practice of inserting necessary information that isn't actually present in the text in [square brackets]. Wonderful; it is like I'm reading actual history.

If I can say so much about a two sentence epigraph I worry that I'll spend more time writing about than reading this book.

LOL Chaz has been let off the leash. Been waiting long eh?

I only started reading 36 hours ago, promise. I thought I needed a little bit of lead in time because I am swamped with work at the moment. Not sure if I'll be able to finish all 4 chs this week but I'm sure going to try.

I didn't make many notes in ch1 but am already drowning in them for ch2. Maybe I should go back and fill out some points from ch1.

Not sure if I'll be able to finish all 4 chs this week

LoL LoL Lol yeah.....right Chaz! uh huh sure mate! Nipping down the TAB to throw a twenty on that not happening.

(view spoiler)[So I am now a few pages into ch2 and we already know everything there is to know:

A woman whose flesh was on fire. She raised her arms and something like iron flashed at her wrists

And:

"Two fountains of raging blood! Face to face. The blood is the same, the two are the same and salty waves shall wash the shores of Raraku. The Holy Desert remembers its past!"

As a rereader everything has been laid out. Incredible! (hide spoiler)]

This book seems to be more confusing to me at the start than the last. I can follow most of what the bridge burners are up to, but little else.

So far I'm struggling to get into this one.

dammit, I was going to skip this one and read Return of the Crimson Guard instead...(need to clear up some timeline confusion). But now you all got me envious for a reread!

Rob wrote: "This book seems to be more confusing to me at the start than the last. I can follow most of what the bridge burners are up to, but little else.

So far I'm struggling to get into this one."

No worries, Rob, it'll 'click' and when it does look out! Deadhouse Gates is kinda like 'rolling thunder', it picks up in intensity until it damn near overwhelms you!

I love the first scene in the Chapter of Duiker sort of covertly entering the trader's camp and watching the seers and shamans and the young boy who makes the foretelling about "The Whirlwind", or "Dryjhna". The blind boy's words were so prophetic--

"Two fountains of raging blood! Face to face. The blood is the same, the two are the same and salty waves shall wash the shores of Raraku. The Holy Desert remembers its past!"

Parts of Seven Cities and the cultures remind me so much the Sahara in Africa, or Native American tribes in the southwestern U.S.

Duiker's first meeting with Coltaine, Bult, the Wickan warlocks, Mallick Rell and Kulp is priceless! During that quasi-humerous initial exchange we actually learn how Dujek lost his arm. These Wickans are spare with their words, but they have a savage sense of humor!

The next scene with Fiddler in Ehrlitan is another that, while initially seeming kind of inexplicable, is absolutely of critical import. Fiddler's meeting with the Tano Spiritwalker, Kimloc, after returning his grandchildren is well-worth paying very close attention to.

Scene shift--

...And now Kalam has the Holy Book of Dryjhna"...

Scene shift--

...and Icarium and Mappo meet Iskaral Pust and his tribe of bhokar'al...

Things get curiouser and curiouser!

I guess I missed it. How does Dudek lose his arm?

Rob wrote: "I guess I missed it. How does Dudek lose his arm?"

Bult's horse bit him (Dujek) in the arm and crushed the bone.

Here, for me, the chief complication comes from the amount of double crossing involved in Kalam's getting the Holy Book. The exchange immediately following shows that Kalam has been set up. But Kalam and Quick Ben are not dumb at all, so they probably know that they've been set up.

It's clear here that the Red Blades have interests of their own, which here may or may not coincide with Laseen's. And the agent who gives the book to Kalam may have two, three or more agenda going on at once.

The other thing that struck me here is how much personal history gets hinted at, and half revealed, but on first reading went straight over my head. Most of this has to do with Kalam's early history in Seven Cities, or with the Bridgeburners first encounter with Raraku (sp?). Also, I noticed this time around several strong hints, and finally a direct statement, that the desert was once a sea. So its probably worthwhile paying attention to Fiddler's conch.

Duffy wrote: "The other thing that struck me here is how much personal history gets hinted at, and half revealed, but on first reading went straight over my head."

Pretty much everything seemed to be going over my head as a first time reader. I kind of hope I'm not alone in that.

I'm sure I missed stuff in Gardens, but didn't find myself so confused.

@Christopher Thanks.

Bult's horse bit him (Dujek) in the arm and crushed the bone."

I was a bit confused by this as well. Was it actually his horse, or was he referring to some kind of weapon as his horse? Seems a bit odd that someone of Dujek's quality would lose an arm to an actual horse bite!

Its nice to get to know Fiddler a bit better. I feel like I didn't really get much of him in GotM and he's a lot wiser than he seemed.

David wrote: "I was a bit confused by this as well. Was it actually his horse, or was he referring to some kind of weapon as his horse? Seems a bit odd that someone of Dujek's quality would lose an arm to an actual horse bite!"

David, remember Fiddler's Gral horse? That was one mean SOB! So, it makes sense that a Wickan horse would lash out at an enemy that his rider was engaging. This was actually common with the destriers ridden by knights in the Middle Ages. Those warhorses used their hooves and teeth very effectively in combat.

Hm, yeah true, that does makes sense.. those are no Mr Eds, eh? Still, I wonder if Dujek is a bit embarrassed to lose his arm to a horse bite. He's probably not keen on people knowing or talking about it!

David wrote: "Hm, yeah true, that does makes sense.. those are no Mr Eds, eh? Still, I wonder if Dujek is a bit embarrassed to lose his arm to a horse bite. He's probably not keen on people knowing or talking..."

I'll bet that Dujek views it in the same vein as Bult views the scar on his face...it is what it is. I bet if Dujek had been sitting there with Bult, Coltaine, and Duiker, he'd have had to take some good-natured ribbing about losing his arm to a horse.

OK on my first go round I had confused the Red Blades with the Moranth!!! Ugh I hate those Red Blades.

So we know the High Fist is a huge asshole, while Mallick seems like a conniving fop that has gotten ahead with no real substance except back stabbing and manipulation. He almost seems a bit weak - and I loved how Coltaine put him in his place. My question - what is a Jhistal? Is it a race, or having to do with religion? We know he's a priest of Mael, who we haven't learned much about yet except that he's an ancient like Krul.

I totally missed how Duiker lost his arm the first time, loved learning it here, and oh how surprising for someone of his caliber - a HORSE? Ah but it's a WICKAN horse.

Yes the scene reminds me of professional soldiers going over past history that's now a great story.

"Between us, I lost the exchange, for the loss of an arm did nothing to damage Dujek's glorious career, while the loss of my beauty left me with but the one wife that I already had."

"And was she not your sister, Bult?"

"She was, Coltaine. And blind."

Best. Exchange. Ever.

Ok first up we have a couple of words/names thrown about in reference to the brewing Rebellion.

One is Dryjhna

call upon Dryjhna – that, and no more, not another word, for the Whirlwind goddess shall hear and obey

So Dryjhna is a "Whirlwind Goddess" - who brings apocalypse

and then we have Sha'ik who is a messiah figure.

and in the Holy Desert waits Sha’ik, the Seeress, the rebellion’s promised leader

So we have Dryjna as the Whirlwind goddess and Sha'ik as her prophet or "Seeress." And together they are supposed to bring an apocalypse that will sweep the Malazan Empire away.


Christopher wrote: "During that quasi-humerous initial exchange we actually learn how Dujek lost his arm

We also learn that he lost it saving Duiker's life. So here's Duiker conversing with the man who nearly killed him back when they were on opposing sides.
Coltaine informs Duiker

‘Bult was the young warrior whose lance ripped you open and for his effort a soldier named Dujek kissed Bult’s face with his sword.’


We also learn that the serving High Fist has been undermined to the point he is not calling the shots. Mallick is the real power

‘Tell me of Pormqual,’ Coltaine said. ‘You have met him?’
The historian swung back to the Fist. ‘I have.’
‘Does he govern well?’
‘As far as I have been able to determine,’ Duiker said, ‘he does not govern at all. Most edicts are issued by the man you – Bult – just expelled from this council


Of course Coltaine is having none of it.

Mallick wants Coltaine to march his troops overland to Aren so they can be "reviewed." Coltaine responds by turning his back on Mallick and Bult lays the cards on the table

Bult laughed without humour. ‘The High Fist wishes to review the army. Presumably the High Fist has an attendant High Mage, perhaps a Hand of the Claw as well?

Bult here is accusing Pormqual/Mallick of attempting to orchestrate an assassination.
The whole meeting Coltaine deliberately baits and spurn Mallick to eventually put him in his place

Bult said, ‘You? You are a priest, not a soldier, not a governor. You are not even recognized as a member of the High Command.’
Rel’s glare flicked from Fist to veteran. ‘I am not? Indeed—’
‘Not by Empress Laseen,’ Bult cut in. ‘She knows nothing of you, priest, apart from the High Fist’s reports. Understand that the Empress does not convey power upon people whom she does not know. High Fist Pormqual employed you as his messenger boy and that is how the Fist shall treat you. You command nothing. Not Coltaine, not me, not even a lowly mess cook of the Seventh.’

But Mallick does have something over his supposed High Fist

‘Tell me, Historian, what hold does Mallick Rel have over Pormqual?’
‘I wish I knew, Fist.’



We are also introduced to Coltaine's warlock Sormo who appears to be a ten year old boy. He is in fact an old warlock who has been soulshifted into a child's body similar to what happened to Tattersail in the previous books.

Sormo was executed by the Empress commands - a Cull on the elders of the Wickan tribe similar to the Culling of the nobles. But she is unaware that the warlocks all soul shifted into new bodies using crows.

‘Eleven days,’ Bult grunted. ‘No single crow could hold all of his soul. Each day there came another, until he was all gone. Eleven days, eleven crows. Such was Sormo’s power, his life will, and such was the honour accorded him by the black-winged spirits. Eleven came to him. Eleven.’
‘Elder sorcery,’ Mallick Rel whispered. ‘Most ancient scrolls hint at such things. This boy is named Sormo E’nath. Truly the warlock reborn?’
‘The Rhivi of Genabackis have similar beliefs,’ Duiker said. ‘A newborn child can become the vessel of a soul that has not passed through Hood’s Gates.’


I also like the little discussion they have about the Emperor and Empress

‘The Emperor and Dancer were able conquerors, but were they able rulers?’
‘We’ll never know,’ Duiker snapped.
The Wickan’s sigh was almost a snort. ‘No, but if there was one person close to the throne capable of seeing what was to come, it was Laseen.’

Bult argues that Laseen had the foresight to realise That to continue with the former Emperor would be a disaster for the Empire.
Bult also points out that Laseen shared the same inner circle of friends with the Emperor - arguing she did not necessarily kill her friends but rather they abandoned her - simply disappeared. And we get a list of names that will become meaningful through the series -

You forget, Historian, that before Laseen became Empress, she was close companions with Crust, Urko, Ameron, Dassem and the others. Imagine her now alone, still feeling the wounds of abandonment.’

We also learn that Duiker was part of this circle of friends They were my companions, too.


Duiker also has an unauthorised side project. He want's to bust a prisoner out of the Otataral mines - namely his fellow historian Heboric who we met last chapter tied up beside Felisin

The cadre mage’s brows rose. ‘In Hissar’s gaol? Historian, I have no clout with the Hissar Guard—’
‘No, not in the city gaol. This is a prisoner of the Empire.’

and

‘Will you help me?’
‘This prisoner ... who?’
‘Heboric Light Touch.’

Then we have Fiddler and Kalam in the holy city of Ehriltan where Fiddler rescues the grandaughters of a Tano Spirit walker - who rewards him with a Tano Spirit song contained in a conch shell. What does that mean?

Although devoted to peace, the power in a Tano song was said to be immense. The sapper wondered what such a creation would do to the Bridgeburners.
The Tano Spiritwalker seemed to understand the question, for he smiled. ‘Such a song has never before been attempted. There is in a Tano song the potential for Ascendancy, but can an entire regiment ascend? Truly a question deserving an answer.’

In other words a Tano Spirit song has the potential to bring Ascendancy. Giving the gift to Fiddler extends the song to the whole Bridgeburner company. Even the Tano Spiritwalker doesn't know exactly what that will mean for the Bridgeburners, but he would very much like to find out.

Kalam, back in his country of origin needs updated passwords to get him safely through rebel lines through the desert. This is the same desert, Raraku, that transformed the bridgeburners into what they are now - whatever that is exactly.

‘I need the signs, Mebra. Safe passage through the Odhan.’
‘You know them—’
‘The symbols have bred. I know the old ones, and those will get me killed by the first tribe that finds me.’

Of course his contact just so happens to drop a holy book that once in the hand of Sha'ik will bring the apocalypse. Mighty convenient that. And we find it's a ruse. The Red Blades - fanatics of the empire want someone to lead them straight to Sha'ik so they kill her - as far as we know so far

‘To kill Sha’ik, you shall need an army, Commander.’
The Red Blade smiled. ‘That is our concern, Mebra.’


Mebra then convinces the Red Blades to let Kalam live and follow him to find his purpose. Mebra already suspects what that is and he sees an opportunity - though what exactly is not clear yet. Is it to hand Kalam's head on a plate to Laseen and gain status with the Empress for stopping an assassination? Or is it something else. I don't actually remember from the first read so I'll be paying attention this time round.

Chaz wrote: "Best. Exchange. Ever. "

The banter between Coltaine and Bult was priceless.

Anyone else notice Iskarel Pust's mule is soletaken?

‘Where is he?’
‘Who?’
‘Servant, of course. He thinks carrying me about is his only task..."

Startled, the beast brayed and bolted towards the cleft, disappearing into the cave...

'Ah, here comes Servant.’
A wide-shouldered, bow-legged man in black robes had emerged from the cave, carrying a tray bearing a jug and clay cups."


So Shadowthrone has set up camp near the convergence with his High Priest Iskarel Pust taking over an old temple.

Also re "Servant" we get this

‘Ammanas’s gift, is Servant. A life given for a life taken. One hand old, one hand new. This is true remorse. You’ll see.’

Anyone care to guess from this cryptic sentence who "Servant" might be? (view spoiler)[this is Sorry's Dad right? A life given ie Sorry's Dad - the old hand - one life taken ie Sorry - with the "new/young hand? (hide spoiler)]

Also note - Icarium can't remember the fight he and Mappo had with the soletaken leopard earlier

The Jhag was frowning. ‘I am missing an arrow, Mappo. More, there is blood on my sword, and I see upon you dreadful wounds. Tell me, did we fight? I recall... nothing.’

And Mappo doesn't care to jog his memory. We'll learn more of Icarium's "condition" as we go

Man. I was wondering what Sormo's deal was. I should have figured it was like Tattersail. That crow thing confused me (like just about everything else).

So as far as we know there was no damage to his soul/personality because it took 11 crows/days to soul-shift? It would seem to me that breaking yourself up into 11 parts would be bad.

Look at Voldemort. He only did it with 7, albeit for a much longer period of time.

I think the thought was that there was so much soul/power to shift.

And Voldemort was Slitheran while Sormo was more Raven/Crow Claw. If Voldemort had stuck to just seven snakes he would have been ok.

Sormo is like 'Sail but not the same. The Rhivi have similar beliefs is mentioned in the chapter. Sormo the first was killed eleven years ago and soul shifted into a newborn and now is in the body of an eleven year old boy. 'Sail was shifted into a new born and appeared to be five years old after only a few days.

Yeah. I get that it had to do with how much power he has, but it still seems like there should be repercussions to the split.

I am confused with some things in this book but continue to find this discussion group extremely helpful.

Thank you.

Rooney

Chaz wrote: " 'Sail was shifted into a new born and appeared to be five years old after only a few days. "

Thats a good point.

@Rob - Well there were consequences for Hairlock when he soul shifted because he went into the body of a puppet. Sormo on the other hand was transported by living creatures into another living vessel. Don't think in terms of his soul being split into eleven pieces but rather that the crows provide a psychic link between the old and new body maintaining a single consciousness. A bit like like the Diverse. Many yet parts but still a single consciousness - if that helps

Sounds like corruption in Aren. Also, the emporer's people are all 'dying' but no bodies are found. Sounds to me like they are not dead, just..hiding. Duiker was one of them, and obviously more than just a simple historian. Another one not dead - Sormo. Does anyone really die in this world? Or do they just pretend to be so they can avoid serving Laseen?
All of these ancient cities buried under flat top hills make me nervous.
Two paths to ascendancy are revealed here: the convergence for the soletaken and d'ivers, and the song of the Tano Spiritwalker Kimloc.
Why would Kalam kill Kimloc? I liked Kimloc. I assume they were on opposite sides of the conquest - was there more to it?
And, what will happen if Icarium loses control that Mappo dreads so much?

And yes...
Lee wrote: "Ladies and Gentlemen, introducing the one and the only.... Iskaral Pust!"

Iskaral! Gotta love a half crazy guy who lives with flying monkeys in a tower halfway up a giant cliff with only a soletaken donkey for company ;) This is getting good!

Linette wrote: "Why would Kalam kill Kimloc? I liked Kimloc. I assume they were on opposite sides of the conquest - was there more to it?"

Kalam like Kimloc is a Seven Cities native. He opposed the empire until he and Quick Ben were forged into a new loyalty with the Bridgeburner in Raraku.

Kimloc surrendered a holy city to the Empire even though he was powerful enough to utterly destroy the Malazan armies.

‘Negotiating the peaceful surrender of Karakarang, the Holy City of the Tano cult. Kimloc claimed he could destroy the Malazan armies. Utterly. Yet he capitulated and his name is now legendary for empty threats.’

So reading between the lines, Kalam sees Kimloc's surrender as a betrayal.


Kimloc's reason for surrendering was that he saw the Empire would have no qualms about unleashing the undead army of the T'lan Imass


‘He opened the gates of his city because he values life above all things. He took the measure of your Empire and realized that the death of thousands meant nothing to it. Malaz would have what it desired, and what it desired was Karakarang.’
Fiddler grimaced. With heavy sarcasm he said, ‘And if that meant bringing the T’lan Imass to the Holy City – to do to it what they did to Aren – then we would have done just that. I doubt even Kimloc’s sorcery could hold back the T’lan Imass.’

Ah, I got the part about Kimloc not wanting so many to be killed, but didn't connect that Kalam thought he had betrayed them, makes sense - thanks!

One of the things I had trouble getting my head around or that I kept forgetting - is that the Malazan Empire doesn't have a state nationality or culture so to speak. It is made up entirely of a mix of conquered nations and cultures dominated by the will of a very few. I would keep forgetting for instance that Kalam is actually in his home state to which he still holds cultural loyalties. It wasn't so much a problem in the first book because Genebackis was a new continent - most the Malazans were from somewhere else. While in this book there are Malazans who are also Seven City natives in a situation where their home country is about to revolt - which nation are they to be loyal to? Their birth country? Or the new conquering country?

Isn't Genebakis the conitinent of the seven cities?

Lori wrote: "Isn't Genebakis the conitinent of the seven cities?"

No there is a separate continent or sub continent called "Seven Cities." Genabackis is across the ocean further to the east where Pale and Darujistan are located. And the Malazan Capital Unta is on the Continent of Quon Tali south of Seven Cities

Back to the maps for me! This read I want to get all geography squared away in my head, the ones in the front of the are too small but now that you've enlightened me they might make more sense.

What a sprawling empire.

And I thought D'stan was also one of th seven cities. I'm so confused!

I've uploaded some maps to the group photos. They come out pretty clear. There's a map for each of the continents we've seen so far as well as a basic world map.

My OCD side insists I spend the first two chapters of these books looking up maps online and identifying where the characters are. Actually, pretty much all through the book if I'm honest. I like maps :)

Oh! Thanks David how wonderful!

I'm finally on my computer (my iPhone is just too small) and took a long look look at the map on top of our home page plus the ones in the photo file. My geography was way off! I wonder why I always thought D'stan was one of the Seven Cities? The last to fall to the Malazans? I also thought Lether was to the west wrong about that too!

Linette, I'm going to take up your habit. Isn't it great we can look up a fictional world online, ha!

"The Emperor clashed with both Treach and Ryllandaras outside Li Heng. I was there"

Interesting...now that both Treach and the Emperor have ascended, might we expect a rematch?!

The Tano Spiritwalker seemed to understand the question, for he smiled. ‘Such a song has never before been attempted. There is in a Tano song the potential for Ascendancy, but can an entire regiment ascend? Truly a question deserving an answer.’

Something to lock away in your head.

The old priest raised a long-fingered, wrinkled hand. 'If you were to let me touch you, I would know your history.'

'Captain Turqa will see you out.' He stepped close and laid a hand on Fiddler's shoulder. 'Kimloc Spiritwalker thanks you.'

He's a sly one, ain't he?

Oh, wow, I hadn't noticed that. Interesting!

I missed that as well - good catch.

Linette, I'm going to take up your habit. Isn't it great we can look up a fictional world online, ha!

Yes Lori! I always want to know how far apart the characters are, is it possible they might meet up, how far from dangerous events are they, etc. I had to look at the maps so many times that I've bookmarked the main world map - then I use the more detailed maps in the books - but still have to look online to see where exactly those book maps fit in the world. I am happy to see so many more continents still unexplored!

Renny wrote: "Interesting...now that both Treach and the Emperor have ascended, might we expect a rematch?!"

The Emperor ascended? I thought he was killed by Laseen. Did I miss that? Or is that an accidental spoiler?

Also who the heck is Treach? I don't remember seeing that name before, but then he's introduced like 20 new characters in this book. I don't see it in my book's character list either.

@Renny. - Good catch with Kimloc touching Fiddler. I totally missed that as well


Treach is referred to briefly as brother to the shapeshifter Ryllandaras in chapter one.

Your brother Treach had it in mind that he killed you.

‘Hunt elsewhere, Ryllandaras, before Icarium does Treach a favour.’


and from Fiddler's conversation with Kimloc

The Emperor clashed with both Treach and Ryllandaras outside Li Heng. I was there.’


So if Ryllandaras is drawn by the promise of ascension, then Treach probably is as well.