Lois McMaster Bujold Fans discussion

From the moment we "meet" him, Teidez is a young man without a lot of qualities to admire; privileged but without great understanding of his responsibilities, at a difficult age, perhaps spoiled, petulant, etc. And of course it gets worse. Is he innocent of wrongdoing because he's young and inexperienced? Can it all be blamed on those who fail to guide him?

He probably has a nature that is reckless and is inclined to first do and then think. But a mindful guidance could show him his wrongs, because I don't think he could be stupid, not from that father and that mother, and with such a sister. First remark he had from Caz (about swordsman and duelists) made him stop and think. But he was a prince, and an only male in a female household, in the society where women had no real power. Having his nature and age in mind, he probably privately called his grandmother "the old bat", his mother "the crazy crow". They should have made more effort in finding him a tutor with a bit more of a backbone. It was very bad for him that Ista had given up parenting her children, gave him a feeling that he is his own master. I believe that was the doing of the Curse (both direct and indirect) that made Ista think: "Let them enjoy life as long as they can". IMHO, Iselle was brought up to be a responsible person because, as a girl, she was more strongly under the jurisdiction of the Provincara, so event though her mother failed to take care of her upbringing, her grandmother did not. In a male dominated society, after a certain age, women keep jurisdiction over female children, while men take jurisdiction over male children, to teach them skills, respectively socially demanded to have.
We, of course, do not know if better tutoring would succeed to make him a better person, but I keep thinking how scared and sorry he was, when his dreadful mistake in the menagerie was explained to him. I think he was sent blindfolded to a battle.

Kiri wrote: "From the moment we "meet" him, Teidez is a young man without a lot of qualities to admire; privileged but without great understanding of his responsibilities, at a difficult age, perhaps spoiled, p..."

interesting topic :-D

I think Teidez is an unfortunate character. He is certainly not a "bad" or "evil" person, but he is spoiled and indulged.

He also lacks a strong character ("the inherent complex of attributes that determines a persons moral and ethical actions and reactions; "education has for its object the formation of character""- Herbert Spencer"). -- The lack of a strong male role model (with a strong and good character) is the most likely cause.

As vorbore points out this role model would *have* to be male. Ser de Sanda is not a bad person, but I would say weak, and he has been unable to earn Teidez's respect -- therefore having little influence over him.

Later when they move to the capital Orico is unable to be a good role model. The other men seem more interested in indulging Teidez in food, wine, women, sports, etc. As Beatriz points out he should have been learning statecraft and leadership instead of over-indulging in the earthly pleasures of life with nothing to balance it out. He is still not a bad person even at the unfortunate end. He is misguided and weak and uninformed. He trusts the wrong people, but hasn't been taught the skills to determine what is right and wrong, who is lying and who is flattering, he hasn't been taught to see what the underlying motives are or might be.....

He is a very sad character in many ways. In others he is a spoiled little boy.....

It's too bad Cazaril wasn't in a position to advise Teidez... or at least try to influence him. He would have made a lot of difference.

It's hard to feel a lot of sympathy for Teidez even though he hasn't had good teachers in his life; one just gets the feeling that Iselle would have done better had their positions been reversed. That she is an innately "better" person... even though we have no way of proving such an idea.

Kiri wrote: "one just gets the feeling that Iselle would have done better had their positions been reversed. That she is an innately "better" person... even though we have no way of proving such an idea..."

I know what you mean. But how much of that is because she was more influenced by her grandmother? Was older? As a young lady/girl more circumscribed? It's hard to say... I agree that it is too bad Caz or someone like him wasn't there for Teidez. I think Teidez would have had a much better chance at becoming someone more like Iselle.

Unprovable though it may be I also get the impression he just doesn't have the basic raw material to work with that Iselle has....

I can't help it, I still feel sorry for him.

vorbore wrote: "I can't help it, I still feel sorry for him."

Oh, I do too :-)

more so because he doesn't have that basic raw material.

If he had that and still did the things he had done I wouldn't feel sorry for him, for me he would move into the "bad guy" territory.....

does that make any sense?

now he is just a foolish, misguided, ignorant boy and I do feel sorry for him.

I'm sure that's part of why Caz is never harder on Teidez - he's always aware of how innocent Teidez' poor decisions are.

He was actually only fourteen, when he arrived to Cardegos, from the sheltered environment of his grandmother's home. He had no idea of all the ways he was hollow - a Croatian saying for someone who thinks he knows everything, not able to grasp how little he actually does know. His raw material was too raw to be judged. I fear to imagine what would be of Gregor without Cordelia's guidance - and still, remember how he had fallen under bad influence in The Worrior's Apprentice.