The Malazan Fallen discussion

Spoilers up to chapter Five are ok.
Please mark any other spoilers using the spoiler tags. (when in doubt, use them).

Yay! I'm actually reading on schedule, well really I'm behind - only in the middle of Ch.5 But I did note that we now are told in simple words that Kellenvad and Dancer are indeed Shadowthrone and Cotillion.

Stormy, Gesler and Truth!

Lori wrote: "Yay! I'm actually reading on schedule, well really I'm behind - only in the middle of Ch.5 But I did note that we now are told in simple words that Kellenvad and Dancer are indeed Shadowthrone and ..."

Yes, we can stop dancing around it now.

Fiddler Apsalar and Crokus arrive at the city of G'danisban which is in uprising with Malazan's "Mezla" being slaughtered in the streets on the back of Pormqual's/Mallick's withdrawal of the Malazan legions.

As the three of them view the carnage Apsalar starts reflecting on memories left behind from her possession by Cotillion. Except they are memories of before Cotillion ascended - when he was the Emperor's right hand man - Dancer

Crokus said, ‘It was the Rope, the patron god of assassins, who possessed you. Yet your memories are—’
‘Dancer’s.’ As soon as he said it, Fiddler knew it was true. ‘The Rope has another name. Cotillion. Hood’s breath, so obvious!

And then we get


Fiddler was cursing himself for a blind idiot. ‘What House appeared in the Deck of Dragons shortly afterward? Shadow. Two new Ascendants. Cotillion ... and Shadowthrone ...’
Crokus’s eyes widened. ‘Shadowthrone is Kellanved,’ he said.


We also learn through Apsalar's/Dancer's memories that the infamous "T'lan Imass slaughter at Aren was done at Laseen's command - Not Kellanved's

‘When the T’lan Imass rose in the city—’
‘Not by Kellanved’s command!’ she retorted. ‘Who ordered the T’lan Imass into Aren? I shall tell you. Surly, the commander of the Claw, the woman who took upon herself a new name—’
‘Laseen.’


I'm not sure if it's been revealed before but Laseen was the commander of the Claw before taking the throne. So she is herself an adept assassin.
It appears, however, that she failed to assassinate the Emperor and his second

‘They weren’t assassinated – either of them. They escaped by ascending.’
‘Into the Shadow Realm.’ Fiddler smiled wryly. ‘To nurse their thoughts of vengeance, leading eventually to Cotillion possessing a young fishergirl in Itko Kan... - Who became Sorry who is now Apsalar


Note to self - don't spit at a Gral horse

It would later be said that even a Gral’s horse knew an insult when it saw one. Before Fiddler could react, his mount’s head snapped forward, stripping the reins from the sapper’s hands, and bit the guardsman in the face.


And Kalam reaches his checkpoint to hand over The Book of the Apocalypse to Sha'ik. Sha'ik's Toblakai bodyguard is badass (view spoiler)[ Karsa Orlong (hide spoiler)] being able to both sneak up on Kalam and easily disarm him. As Leoman tells him

‘You fancy no mortal could get that close to you without your hearing him. You tell yourself it must have involved magic. You are wrong.

Kalam is sent on his way but not before he is gifted with the aptorian demon - the same one I assume we got a glimpse of earlier that the Divers Rhylandaras attacked

‘An aptorian, Deliverer, from the realm of Shadow. Sent into Raraku by Shadowthrone ... to spy. It belongs to Sha’ik now...’

‘It’s been in a fight?’
Sha’ik scowled. ‘A D’ivers. Desert wolves. She drove them off—’


And the Red Blades complete their mission to assassinate Sha'ik. They succeed but are forced to retreat as the Toblakai bodyguard ninja's their whole squad. Well if he's so good why couldn't he save Sha'ik? Well maybe that's part of the plan as well.


The Toblakai stood nearby. ‘She is dead.’
‘I see that,’ Leoman said dryly, reaching to collect the blood-spattered Book, which he slowly rewrapped in cloth.

And we have already learned that there is one vital ingredient needed if one is going to call up a god/goddess


The prophecy was certain,...’
‘She said she would be ... renewed ...’
The Toblakai raised his head, sniffed. ‘There’s a storm coming.’


Hold onto your hats.

The other thing that's interesting to note - in the last chapter there was a reading of the Deck of Dragons where Kalam was assigned the Patron of Assassins card ie of High House Shadow. Now all of a sudden he has been assigned an aptorian demon that used to belong to Shadow but defected to Sha'ik. Or did it really defect? If Shadow has an interest in Kalam then maybe the aptorian was out looking for him all along?

(view spoiler)[I wasn't sure that was Karsa, and I don't remember him ever being a devotee of Shaik! It almost is against his nature. Thanks for conforming (hide spoiler)]

@Lori(view spoiler)[ Yeah that's Karsa. We get his back story and how he ended up with Leoman and then in Raraku in one of the later books. Can't remember which one - I don't think he is particularly devoted to Shaik per se - I think he is after his own answers which he thought Sha'ik would help answer - from my poor memory (hide spoiler)]

David - I'm now vaguely recalling this.... (view spoiler)[ of course if he had said Witness! I would have been sure! But I did suspect Karsa because how many Toblakais are running around?! It's amazing how much I am finding on a 2nd read, and again in awe of SE at how the earlier books are so linked to later ones, that escaped me the first time around. (hide spoiler)]

There's also this thought from Kalam

It was not a far reach, then, for Kalam to see in his shadow a hundred thousand deaths. And he wondered if, throughout Seven Cities, readers of the Deck of Dragons now held a newly awakened Herald of Death in their trembling hands.

So maybe that earlier reading of the Deck where The Assassin is surrounded by death goes further than just the death of those at Ladro Keep

the journey to within sight of G'danisban had proved uneventful for Fiddler

well you don't see that often. So much happens in this story, that when nothing happens it makes the news :)

Say one thing about Fiddler, say he has some steel Cajones.

Imitating a Gral inside an Arak camp! Now that requires some big deception.

Lee wrote: "well you don't see that often. So much happens in this story, that when nothing happens it makes the news :) "

Yeah, they made up for it though. Had his horse bite someone's face off. And then killing those six would be rapists in the city. Looks like Apsalar remembers "The Rope's" skills. And she has a mean streak as well. Best way to deal with rapists is to open up their crotches.

I liked the way Apaslar handled the Arak with her potential curse, but also how she ordered Fiddler into the city. We are seeing some steel will coming through there and FId is worried about falling in love with her.

Had his horse bite someone's face off.

(view spoiler)[ I remembered that in a much later book, Paran walks into a temple and meets a warrior called 'brokenface'. It is our man from this scene. Can't remember which book though. (hide spoiler)]

Lee wrote: "Had his horse bite someone's face off.

[spoilers removed]"

I'll have to keep an eye out for that now.

Me too!

After seeing what Fid's horse can do in this chapter, is anyone still so surprised about Dujek losing an arm to one of these things?

If Surly didn't kill Dancer and Kellavened, but instead was the cause for their ascending, then it becomes even less clear to me why Shadowthrone and Cotillion are so keen on revenge.

For the most part, this book differs from the first book in that the motives of the major characters lies very much on the surface. For example, Kalam is seeking a way to assassinate Surly. Felesin wants to survive and eventually get revenge on Tavore.

Ahha found the horse spoiler.

(view spoiler)[It is when Paran goes to visit with Soliel, with Noto Boil. A girl says to them;
"Brokeface will not permit it. He will kill you, and your horse. Your horse first, for he hates such creatures".

then when they meet Brokeface;

Such was not the case with their leader, the one the girl had called Brokeface. The man’s visage was indeed pinched misshapen, flesh and bones folded in at right lower jaw, then across the face, diagonally, to the right cheekbone. He had been bitten, the captain realized, by a horse.

All in Bonehunters! (hide spoiler)]

Duffy wrote: "If Surly didn't kill Dancer and Kellavened, but instead was the cause for their ascending, then it becomes even less clear to me why Shadowthrone and Cotillion are so keen on revenge."

I don't think she was the "cause" of their ascending. But she did try to kill them on the night of their ascension. Esslemont's Night of Knives covers that particular day/night. It still leaves a lot for speculation, but it does explain a little bit why Surly, Kellanved and Dancer were all within striking distance of each other on that particular night.

Then I think House of Chains spells out the Emperor's grand scheme.

In any case, Surly wasn't IN on whatever Kellanved and Dancer were up to. Her part was pure betrayal (view spoiler)[even if it was convenient for the two new ascendants - the other gods would never have let them have the throne of Shadow as well as a mortal throne as well as the first throne of the T'lan Imass - hmmm now I think about it that puts to bed my theory that Cotillion was after the throne (hide spoiler)]

In either case, we can see from the first book that Shadowthrone wasn't as invested in revenge as Cotillion. And in this particular chapter we see part of the reason why Cotillion hated Surly. In wasn't just the betrayal, but he had particularly strong feelings about her using the Imass to wipe out Aren as well - all in the Emperor's name.

...And in this particular chapter we see part of the reason why Cotillion hated Surly....."

(view spoiler)[ I was always under the impression that it had more to do with the Claw/Talon rivalry and the fact that the claw decimated the talon and essentially wiped out alot of Dancer's friends. (hide spoiler)]

I don't have much to add other than, I liked this chapter. It might be the first one I understood what was going on in for this book!

Also, I didn't know the deal with Shadowthrone/Cortillion though based on comments and accidentally clicking a spoiler tag last week I was suspicious.

Definitely didn't get there on my own though.

@Mikeiwo - good point. Something else to pay attention to later on.

Well there are many reasons to hate SUrly!

Lori wrote: "Well there are many reasons to hate SUrly!"

Oh yeah. (view spoiler)[and I think her betrayal started long before the night of knives. I think Kellanved and Dancer could have taken her out - they had the hounds, and they had T'lan Imass - so in their need to "disappear" it must have irked them that it was necessary for it to appear as if Surly had won - and put their vengeance on the back burner for a bit (hide spoiler)]

I shouldn't really read chapters in immediate succession. I had a lot of thoughts on this chapter but then Chapter 6 came and everything was overshadowed. Some I can still remember:

1. Finally, it was explicitly stated that Kellanved/Dancer -> Shadowthrone/Cotillion.
2. Why would Dancer trust Kellanved fully but Cotillion wouldn't with Shadowthrone? Does a person's character changes in the process of ascension?
3. Never ever spit at a Gral.
4. Apsalar grew some claws and I like it.
5. Crokus remains bland. (Boy, do I sound like a Crokus hater every chapter. But come on now, it wouldn't hurt to have a personality!)
6. Why does Goodreads' html doesn't allow ordered/unordered listing html tags?

Aaron Vincent wrote: "Why would Dancer trust Kellanved fully but Cotillion wouldn't with Shadowthrone? Does a person's character changes in the process of ascension?"

"Power corrupts" is the thought I take away here.

Aaron Vincent wrote: "6. Why does Goodreads' html doesn't allow ordered/unordered listing html tags?"

They trust us with a little bit of html power - but don't want us to ascend too far in case we use our html power for evil purposes. They are afraid of what we would do if we could do. Bit like Dancer and Kellanved

(some html is ok)
(more html is showing off)
(fancy nancy html leads to corruption)

5. Crokus remains bland.

He is isn't he? I remember in my first read I found Ganoes and Crokus to be very annoying. I often wished Apaslar would pig stick him. In my second read I realised that there was way more to Ganoes than I originally picked up on, but Crokus is still a twat.

David Sven wrote: "Power corrupts" is the thought I take away here."

Good point.

List tags aren't that fancy. It just make lists look neater. There's a workaround, though.

1. Gardens of the Moon
2. Deadhouse Gates
3. Memories of Ice

Beaten you there, Goodreads. :D

Re: Shadowthrone, the man was insane, the ascendant has even more power to wreak havoc and his actions affect the deck itself. On his quest for goodness he's playing with gods even more powerful and both he and cotillion could die. He's the ultimate puppet master but needs to make the others act the way he wants them too wholeheartedly hides in the shadows. There's a lot to control, plan, manipulate and he's nuts! Can he keep his focus? Cotillion is unsure.

Right. I'm recalling their ST and C's first interaction in the first book and it really does appear that ST's reasoning is somewhat muddled by his acquired power.

Lori wrote: "There's a lot to control, plan, manipulate and he's nuts! Can he keep his focus? Cotillion is unsure. "

I think I like your explanation better. At the very least Shadowthrone has proven unpredictable and volatile and somewhat petty. Except when Shadowthrone gets petty he's more inclined to do things like setting his dogs on a company of the Empress' soldiers just out of spite. Or get careless with throwing names around witnesses - like the fisher girl - because it's just as easy to kill her along with everyone else. As an mere mortal he would be more susceptible to "consequences" so would be more inclined to exercise restraint.

@ aaron

(more html is showing off)

Re: Shadowthrone, the man was insane

I don't buy into that Lori. I don't think he has shown us anything that would suggest he is insane. He has shown he has a propensity to giggle at odd moments. But he has some audacious plans short term and long term. I agree the power has gone to his head. But insanity isn't something that leaps to mind with his actions so far.

dogs on a company of the Empress' soldiers just out of spite

maybe not out of spite. How much stress did that put on the Empress when Lorn reported that little escapade? He would have enjoyed the stress that brought her.

Lee wrote: "maybe not out of spite. How much stress did that put on the Empress when Lorn reported that little escapade? He would have enjoyed the stress that brought her. "

That's true - but it obviously frustrated Cotillion that he was diverting from the plan.

I find myself uninterested in Crokus. I don't hate him. I really have no feelings for him now. I liked him when he was sneaking around last book, even if he was lacking depth. Now I'm pretty indifferent.

 Oh, 
 and 
 I 
 can 
 use 
 pre 
 too
 Aaron!

But yeah, good reads should support lists..

That's just evil Rob

David Sven wrote: "That's just evil Rob"

You don't like my staircase?

Well it is descending

 ascend?
 to
 hoping
 were
 You
 Ah.

haha.

re Shadowthrone - as a first time reader I was pretty surprised at the revelation of Kellanved -> Shadowthrone. I mean, in the first book I just got this idea in my head that Laseen was an evil usurper who took the empire from (what I had in my head as) a just and overall liked Emperor. I guess I got that idea because of all the alluding to factions that were still loyal to Kellanved combined with what seemed like a universal distate for his replacement. So I was pretty surprised as we started to figure out that that former ruler was the one sending hounds out to kill armies and being tricked by Quick Ben. Shadowthrone also seemed like a big player in the god world with much power, and maybe so, but the newest of the ascendants. Its interesting, that's for sure.

re Crokus. I would just echo Lee and say twat seems quite a good description of him. bleh.

The Emperor warred against armies, not civilians...
I like how the Kellanved is set up as an honorable ruler. We also get the backstory of who was really responsible for the massacre at Aren by the T'Lan Imass.

'I should have killed her there and then,' Apsalar muttered.
Yes, Dancer, you should have!

Just another thought re Cotillion distrusting Shadowthrone - we have this quote from the first book re The Rope talking to Quick Ben

I congratulate you, Quick Ben. Few mortals have ever succeeded in avoiding my lord's inclination to double-cross. It seems you have outwitted him.

and we know Shadowthrone loves making deals -

'Do you know why I just saved your life, Wizard?'
'I do, Lord.'
Shadowthrone leaned forward. 'Shan wants you to tell me.'
Quick Ben met the Hound's red stare. 'Shadowthrone loves deals.'

Especially, I figure, deals where its mutually understood by both parties that its a game of who can doublecross who and still get what they want. I think Quick Ben is a lot better at this game actually.

About Shadowthrone being insane. It's true that we haven't seen much of it aside from giggling, and first read I wondered about him. I suppose I'm noticing other trustworthy characters calling him insane. I do think he is unstable, can lash out, and who knows what's going on in his mind? Dancer used to, but since the ascension Cotillion doesn't and so has no trust. The plan is so audacious with so many strings to control and manipulate with possible dire consequences and as David says with power comes feelings of megalomania.

Lori wrote: "About Shadowthrone being insane. It's true that we haven't seen much of it aside from giggling, and first read I wondered about him. I suppose I'm noticing other trustworthy characters calling him ..."

I would disagree with this. But based on knowledge of the full series. (view spoiler)[ Cotillion and Shadowthrone are not working on the same project and therefore Cotillion may at times not be fully in the know on Shadowthrone's full plans. His methods he may question, however, I have always had the feeling that there is complete trust that the end results will be achieved.

The question of Shadowthrone's sanity mirrors many characters in the series (Kruppe, Iskaral Pust, Tehol Beddict). If they seem insane or overly weird it is uniformly a means to put others off guard and disguise their true genius. Cotillion and all other sidekicks understand this and play along with it. (hide spoiler)]

Yes Megalomania is a very good description. I don't think Cotillion would have stuck with him if he was truly insane. They obviously have a plan of what they want to achieve, so whilst he is acting all godlike and odd, he is obviously still on the plan page.

I'd agree with that.

Mikeiwo - it's interesting to think they are using a front of insanity to disguise their true selves. However I do think Pust is nuts, and that's not fake! However nutty people can achieve all they want and doesn't dim any intelligence. In regards to Pust, I think he's definitely bent, and it could be because of his god and all the plans that Pust much accomplish.

As for Kruppe, I never thought of him as insane at all, and I think what you see is what you get. Sure he's the eel and keeps his major talent hidden but he is most definitely sure footed in the real mortal world, and truly loves everything the material world has to offer!

But now I've gotten to thinking about the blur that can occur when one is in 2 worlds.

@Mik - I like your perspective of Shadowthrone (view spoiler)[ ST always struck me as someone who likes the idea of being an Emperor more than actually being Emperor. He likes the conquering and political wheeling and dealing - but he is absolutely bored with having subjects to manage. I can imagine him sitting on his throne twiddling his thumbs and thinking "I've conquered half the world already - now I'm bored. I think I might ascend and become a god next" (hide spoiler)]

Heh that sounds true! I think Shadowthrone was a better ruler than Laseen who seems hellbent on conquer and subject in a tyrrany while I think Shadowthrone was more like the British in allowing local customs. Laseen just goes in to destroy.

@David Sven - Oh very well said. I think that may be the best description for Shadowthrone yet. (view spoiler)[ For Shadowthrone (and Quick Ben), it is all about the game. and only the game. (hide spoiler)]

@Lori - Kruppe is certainly not insane, agreed. His speech affectations and referring to himself in third person and his verbosity cause the distraction. It is the misdirections that are created that make them all similar.