Brain Pain discussion

Nathan suggested that I might enjoy reading The Sagas of Icelanders and in particular, Jane Smiley's introduction, as a good background read for the Ice-Shirt.

We can use this thread as a general discussion of Icelandic sagas, poems, and mythology. No schedule for this, just read and discuss this book and others related to Icelandic literature.

I can barely understand the breadth of your reading, Jim, let alone the depth! I'm actually very interested in the sagas but when! (*she wailed*)

Ellie wrote: "I can barely understand the breadth of your reading, Jim, let alone the depth! I'm actually very interested in the sagas but when! (*she wailed*)"

Well, for me there are only two kinds of books - fiction and non-fiction. So I ignore genres and schools and movements and it kind of levels the playing field, making all books basically the same. Stories (fiction) and information (non-fiction). So far, this trick is working great!!

What interests me most about Vollmann is that he seems to ignore even the simple division of fiction/nonfiction, which makes my whole self-trickery even easier... or something like that...

A helpful hint: Nathan's suggestion about this book was primarily about the Jane Smiley preface and how it gives a good literary background for the sagas. In other words, you could easily get away with reading only her preface for now, and look at the actual sagas in the future.

Thanks-will do. I actually already own the book.

If I can find it.

Just reading the preface seems somehow... wrong, like - I don't know, leaving a party after shaking hands with the host. It's probably just me indulging in some completely unnecessary OCD, but I'd feel uncomfortable with that. It does look like an interesting book, though, and coming to think about it, I've been wanting to take a look at Icelandic sagas for quite a while now. And it's just a measly 800 pages... *sigh*

Larou wrote: "Just reading the preface seems somehow... wrong, like - I don't know, leaving a party after shaking hands with the host. It's probably just me indulging in some completely unnecessary OCD, but I'd ..."

I'll read most, if not all of the sagas during our reading/discussion of The Ice-Shirt. I'm sure Vollmann's re-imagining of this part of North American history will be enhanced by looking at the source legends.

Oh, I do not doubt they will, in fact I am quite sure that they are well worth reading and likely even enjoyable for their own sake. It's just the same old refrain, so many books so little time!

I've personally decided to attack this issue by reading the Smiley Preface, the Kellogg Introduction, and the two Vinland Sagas, which are comparatively short and contain the bulk of the material concerning the Vikings in the New World. There's also a brief introduction to the two Vinland sagas themselves. Thus far, I'm through the Preface and Intros with the two sagas to go.

Brant wrote: "I've personally decided to attack this issue by reading the Smiley Preface, the Kellogg Introduction, and the two Vinland Sagas, which are comparatively short and contain the bulk of the material c..."

Sounds like a plan!

I don't have the book yet, but I'm wondering if the sagas are related to or the same as those in The Prose Edda or if they are completely different.

Jim wrote: "I don't have the book yet, but I'm wondering if the sagas are related to or the same as those in The Prose Edda or if they are completely different."

They're different, but Egil's Saga, which happens to be the first in the Smiley book (and the only one I've read), is thought by some to be written by Snorri Sturluson, who wrote the Prose Edda

David wrote: "Jim wrote: "I don't have the book yet, but I'm wondering if the sagas are related to or the same as those in The Prose Edda or if they are completely different."

They're different, but Egil's Saga..."

Thanks David!

Nullifidian wrote: "I've read them and I can tell you that they're completely different. They're stories of individual families and communities, and none of them have any supernatural elements. They're the cultural an..."

Thanks N! I'm finally going to invest in an ereader for the wristbreakers.

EDIT: I picked up a kobo glo from FNAC while in Bordeaux last week. It's my first ereader and so far I'm impressed! I just have to resist the temptation to download every book that has even the slightest appeal!


A quick wiki-scan shows the Snorri's Prose Edda has references to poems found in the Poetic Edda. Looking forward to the Smiley book to see how all of these elements tie together, and of course, how Vollmann re-weaves them to tell his story.

Well, I read the introduction by Robert Kellogg (which I assumed was meant, rather than the preface by Jane Smiley, which is interesting, but atmospheric rather than informative). It makes for excellent reading, and I'm quite keen to read the actual sagas now!

Some loosely connected things I think might be of interest with regard to Ice Shirt (which I haven't read, so I'm just surmising here):

Among other things, I was intrigued to find out that the sagas aren't apparently all made up but do have some (however precarious) root in history, so in a way are mixing fiction with non-fiction - one can see how Vollmann would feel at home there.

Also, this: "Typically, leaving the old home in Norway is described in constitutional and political terms, whereas finding a home in Iceland is guided by a more magical agency that sanctions the foundation of new houses and the communities that surround them."

There generally seems to be something ambivalent about the sagas, a certain liminality (is that a word?) - quite a few of them are about the settling of Iceland by exiles from Norway, and Greenland marks an additional step away from the origin, even deeper into exile, while Vinland is obviously yet another remove - it seems the sagas always situate themselves always around the two sides of some border or other.

Fitting in with that, the heroes of the sagas apparently are almost exclusively outsiders in some way, sometimes even outright outlaws, but definitely people living on the fringes of their society.

Larou wrote: "There generally seems to be something ambivalent about the sagas, a certain liminality (is that a word?)"
Yes liminality is a word, and sums up the sagas perfectly. I hadn't thought of them like that before, but they are very much about life on the edge.

Starting my pre-reading of the The Sagas of Icelanders this weekend. I thought I would do the Preface by Smiley, Introduction by Kellogg, and the two Greenland Sagas. I think time constraints for other reading is going to hold me to that. Pretty psyched about getting this one going.

I wouldn't go so far as saying that they don't have supernatural elements. I haven't read this particular collection, but the sagas I read ALL had supernatural elements, including the vinland saga which many have cited as historical evidence of a viking visit to the new world. If I remember correctly ghosts kill some folks and issue some important warnings? I might misremember that one.

My favorite saga is Njal's Saga, but of course it's the longest. A very exciting short one, though, is the far out and wacky Saga of the Volsungs, which is the Norse equivalent of the German story of Sigfried, with some parallels to Niebelungenlied.

Happy reading!

James wrote: "Starting my pre-reading of the The Sagas of Icelanders this weekend. I thought I would do the Preface by Smiley, Introduction by Kellogg, and the two Greenland Sagas. I think time constraints for o..."

I'm expecting my copy next week, so will be able to join you. Let us know what you think of the sagas you read.

I have read "Egil's Saga" and the two Vinland ones now, and agree with Zadignose that there are distinctly supernatural elements in all of them, even though there not all that prominent and comparatively subdued.

What there interestingly doesn't seem to be - at least that was my impression, your own mileage may very well vary, indeed I may be completely off the mark with this - is any kind of psychology as motivation for what the characters are doing.

I'm puzzling over why one guy would try to poison another just because he drank too much of his beer (actually happens in "Egil's Saga"), but there is no reference to any kind if interior space - in a way, the people in these sagas seem to be all surface, or, maybe a better to put it, their depth as characters is not the echo of some fundamentally inaccessible interiority (as the 19th century novel would have it) but seems rather to stem from their relation to the world surrounding them, which would include their environment as well as the people they relate to (which would also go some way to explain why to make mention of at the very least the parents of every single character however brief its appearance in the saga).

I ended up stopping at the intro. I didn't want to know most of the plot points beforehand.

I usually read the introductions to books after reading the complete text.

By the way, regarding the style of the sagas, I personally really like the bare-bones style without psychological insight. It's, in some ways, startling. It's also a refreshing change from the twentieth-century style which over-analyzes, which worries a lot about motivation, and strives to expose the inner workings of characters.

There's something primordial, frightening, and uncomfortably strange about much of medieval literature, and I'd say that's largely true worldwide (compare the Chinese epic Outlaws of the Marsh). To me, that's part of the works' unspoken thesis. If you want something truly far out, read The Mabinogion, from Wales. Compare to some German works such as Parzival (by Wolfram von Eschenbach) and Nibelungenlied, and an Icelandic saga, The Saga of the Volsungs. Maginogion is at one extreme, absolutely frenetic and mad, devoid of rational motivation, very "folk art" in the sense of relating fantastic events without comment or clear thesis. On the other end, a work like Parzival is strange and stunning in its own way, and its thesis is muted, but can be found (I'd say the thesis is: "Grace cannot be earned, but it can be received"). The same story is told in both Mabinogion and Parzival, but they give very different impressions. Neither is quite close to a twentieth century or nineteenth century style though. (By the way, the relationship between Mabinogion and Parizival is rather convoluted and hard to sort out. The oral tradition that Mabinogion is based on was the precursor of Parzival, but by the time Mabinogion was written down it was probably strongly influenced in its own turn by Wolfram's interpretation, as disseminated through retellings in various languages).

Volsung Saga, as I mentioned before, is a Norse telling of the story that is also central to Niebelungenlied, but the Norse has a more primitive feel. Yet Niebelungenlied is similarly odd (dare I say "exotic"?) because of the radical ethics, the plot development, and the incredible transformation of villain into hero, and may be quite incomprehensible to the logic of motivation as we currently think about it.

I'd say the Sagas for the most part fall in the middle of the continuum between anarchic folk tales and epics with a rationalized thesis. With some acclimation, though, you just might come to love the way the works reflect our inconstant, volatile, maddening world of human impulse without restraint.

I can't help thinking of Njal's Saga, in which, on several occasions, and on one in particular, just when there seems to be a workable solution to the main problems facing the characters, a seemingly irrational act based on a grievance, a perceived insult, or just unmotivated rage throws everything into chaos once again. The human plight is quite pitiable. It's also fascinating, and sometimes even humorous.

I fell in love with Njal's Saga in 1972 and it took me to Iceland. I visited Thingvellir, the museum where all the descriptions of medieval objects were in Icelandic, and watched a chess match between Bobby Fisher and Boris Spaasky. It was all because of Njal's Saga in the Magnus Magnusson translation, which I think is no longer available.

However, all the Vikings were gone, which, all things considered, made it a much safer trip.

Zadignose wrote: "I can't help thinking of Njal's Saga, in which, on several occasions, and on one in particular, just when there seems to be a workable solution to the main problems facing the characters, a seemingly irrational act based on a grievance, a perceived insult, or just unmotivated rage throws everything into chaos once again. The human plight is quite pitiable. It's also fascinating, and sometimes even humorous. ..."

That sounds exactly like contemporary society/politics. Some things never change.

@Bill - Fisher/Spassky! The peak of interest in chess as a spectator sport. I remember it well. Are you interested in reading The Ice-Shirt?

And to continue the theme, my last impression of the World Trade Center, before it was destroyed in an irrational act based on etc., was witnessing the Kasparov Anand PCA World Chess Championship match on the observation deck. Granted I'm not a good enough player to even understand what was going on in that match... but it's a memory.

My copy arrived this morning - thick as a brick! Printed on nice heavy paper with deckle edges... now I just need the courage to dive in.

I think I'm going to follow the Preface, Intro, and Vinland strategy that Brant suggested above, and then dip into other sagas as the spirit of The Ice-Shirt moves me.

Jim, I would have bought a copy but it's not available for a Kindle, and while that theoretically shouldn't make a difference, I read a lot away from my apartment and, as a practical matter, what's not on the Kindle doesn't get read. Even light thin books.

Bill wrote: "Jim, I would have bought a copy but it's not available for a Kindle, and while that theoretically shouldn't make a difference, I read a lot away from my apartment and, as a practical matter, what's..."

Good enough. If you have a chance in the future, I'd be curious to hear what you think of the formal elements of Vollmann's work. He seems to go beyond most post-modern writing and into a different formal territory which I don't exactly know how to define...

Jim wrote: "My copy arrived this morning - thick as a brick! Printed on nice heavy paper with deckle edges... now I just need the courage to dive in.

I think I'm going to follow the Preface, Intro, and Vinlan..."

Finished this approach last night. I have to say that reading the Vinland sagas first made me even more excitied to start The Ice-Shirt. I enjoyed, but wasn't blown away by, the sagas themselves (preferring the Saga of the Greenlanders over Eirik the Red's Saga personally), but they struck me as particularly rich as source material, so I'm anxious to see what WTV does with them. I suppose there may be a few plot points that I'll know in advance, but going into it my first reaction is I'm glad I read them first. I also recognize that the Vinland sagas aren't the pinnacle of saga literature, so I'm thinking Njal's Saga may be moved up on the reading list and checked off the list this summer.