The Pickwick Club discussion

My favorite book by Dickens is Great Expectations. I like the characters and the plot. For some reason, I find Pip's struggles to become a gentleman entertaining and something I can identify with in my own life. I like the fact that it is more of a British ideal than an American because in the U.S. you can reach top status by becoming rich and famous. In Victorian England, there was much more that went along with it, such as manners, education, dress, etiquette, and reputation. For those who are interested in history and how people lived in "the olden days" this book covers a lot of ground on people's attitudes to certain classes of people, and the plight of ascending from one rung on the class ladder to the next, at the same time exposing some of the fallacies of that class system.

My favorite character was Joe and from the point where Pip became his apprentice and became fortunate enough to work on a day-to-day basis with his best friend, guardian, brother-in-law, and father figure I began thinking that these would be the best days of his life and he needed to cherish them, while Pip obviously overlooked their value and set his sights on becoming a gentleman. I guess when one's sphere of influence increases and he becomes well-educated and a player in high society, he must sometimes sacrifices the lesser important things in life, like family. All that sentimentalism aside, something of which Dickens' harshest critics have ridiculed him for time and time again, this is a great book and Dickens' is the best author.

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So hard to choose a favourite novel! How can one ask such a question.

Adam, I think it's a good idea to include books about Dickens. There are some excellent biographies of him, for example, and works of fiction in which he and his family are characters.

Adam wrote: "Great Expectations is indeed a wonderful Dickens classic and was the first book I ever read of his. My own favourite though is Oliver Twist.

As in Great Expectations, Dickens paints a tapestry of..."

Sure, we can add those to the shelf Adam. What are they? I will also be adding some biographies and criticisms written by some great authors about him.

Mt Faavorite is Our Mutual Friend. I'm hard-pressed to say why right now, because I read it 7 or 8 years ago for a class on Dickens which satisfied my personal tastes and a course requirement for my focus area (Victorian Lit). I remember loving the novel but now I can only remember snippets, like Jenny Wren, the doll's dressmaker, and Silas Wegg with his wooden leg.

Speaking of wooden legs, I read an interesting essay on Dickens' obsession with them. I'll post a link if I can find it again.

Jennifer wrote: "Mt Faavorite is Our Mutual Friend. I'm hard-pressed to say why right now, because I read it 7 or 8 years ago for a class on Dickens which satisfied my personal tastes and a course requirement for m..."

Jennifer, if you loved Our Mutual Friend, treat yourself to watching this miniseries adaptation:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0144727/

Since I have only read A Tale of Two Cities, A Christmas Carol, and am currently reading Martin Chuzzlewit, I am not qualified to vote. If I had to choose between the three I'd say A Tale of Two Cities but each book was appealing in its own way.

Of those three, not having read A Christmas Carol, but having watched several different film adaptations, and a religious play based upon the same, I would have to say that Martin Chuzzlewit is far and away my favorite. There was really nothing quite lovely about that book, yet I absolutely adored it all the same.

The Bleak House, hands down. The reasons are numerous - plot consistency, visionary and intriguing POV, mystery, skillful use of past and present narrative tenses, suspense, and a realistic heroine. And do not forget the description of smog in London. A fascinating and a powerful novel!

Jonathan wrote: "Of those three, not having read A Christmas Carol, but having watched several different film adaptations, and a religious play based upon the same, I would have to say that Martin Chuzzlewit is far..."

I'm only about 1/4 of the way through Martin Chuzzlewit, but I know what you mean, Jonathan. Nothing really important is happening yet Dickens is a master with the development of the characters. He makes their personalities so large that I wouldn't really be surprised if one of them walked through my door!

How do you find Dickens does with his portrayal of female characters? Are they believable? Specifically, I found that Lucie Manette in A Tale of Two Cities fell a little flat for me. She was too sweet and perfect and not quite real; however I feel that the personality he gave her helped to develop both the plot and some of the other characters in the novel.

At times, Dickens characters seem more like caricatures and I'm not quite sure what to think!

Zulfiya ~ I am really looking forward to reading Bleak House so thanks for your excellent review.

Cleo wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Of those three, not having read A Christmas Carol, but having watched several different film adaptations, and a religious play based upon the same, I would have to say that Martin ..."

Yes, Zulfiya that sounds intriguing, I have found it difficult not to pick that one up yet; I purchased it a while back, but there is some other stuff I want to read first.

As far as Dickens' female characters are concerned, he has been blasted by his critics, even in the Cliff Notes on A Tale of Two Cities, which I recently read to refresh my memory, for having goody-two-shoes, much too good to be true female characters. I like Dora from D.C., and the Misses Chuzzlewits here just because they are so different from that picture of perfection. While you are reading M.C., compare and contrast those two characters with Miss Pinch.

Of the two sisters, the youngest was my favorite. Characters with some eccentricities make a work of fiction much more entertaining. I think that is what his critics are driving at when they say his female characters are too perfect.

Dickens' mother was very stand offish towards him, and neglected to remove him from a terrible workhouse when he was younger and she had the opportunity. He was obviously unhappy with his wife, evidenced by his infamous affair in his later years. Perhaps, he used these perfect ladies to create a world that he wanted to live in. I cannot fault him for that, even if the selfish, mocking, spoiled brats are a little more true to life and hit a little closer to home.

Here's the link to the article about wooden legs.

http://omf.ucsc.edu/london-1865/victo...

The main site is also interesting. It's UCSC's Dickens Project page and has a lot of interesting information, articles, and resources about Dickens and Victorian London.

http://dickens.ucsc.edu/index.html

Jonathan wrote: "As far as Dickens' female characters are concerned, he has been blasted by his critics, even in the Cliff Notes on A Tale of Two Cities,..."

Phew! At least I wasn't the only one who felt this way.

Thanks for all the background information, Jonathan. My goal for this year is to try to read something about the author of the novel(s) I plan to read; having some background on an author's life usually gives greater understanding to the his/her work. Now if I can only decrease my book-load, I may have time to do this!

Adam ~~ David Copperfield is another novel of Dickens that I'm looking forward to reading, as well as Great Expectations. It's nice to know that Dickens was able to give greater development to some of his other female characters!

Adam wrote: "Richard wrote: "There are some excellent biographies of him, for example, and works of fiction in which he and his family are characters. "

Books that actually cast Dickens and his family as characters? Please enlighten me, I would be interested in these!"

One is Drood, narrated by a fictional version of Wilkie Collins. It is very dark apparently.

Another is Charles Dickens and the Night Visitors. The author is on GR and is a friend of mine. I haven't yet read the book.

A third one is Hard Times: The Lost Diary of Mrs. Charles Dickens is supposed to be the diary of Catherine Hogarth--but don't be fooled. It's historical fiction.

Finally, I recently had a short story published in an anthology titled In the Wings: Stories of Forgotten Women. "Maiden Aunt" is about the relationship between Dickens and his sister-in-law, Georgina Hogarth. See my profile page for more details, and kindly forgive the shameless self-promotion.

Adam wrote: "Cleo wrote: "How do you find Dickens does with his portrayal of female characters? Are they believable? Specifically, I found that Lucie Manette in A Tale of Two Cities fell a little flat for me. S..."

I absolutely coudn't stand Dora. I thought she was so vacuous that I honestly couldn't wait for for her to expire. I love Aunt Betsey though.

That's funny Christine. Those were actually my favorite parts of the story. I loved Dora. I wanted to take her out of the book and marry her myself. I just thought her ineptitude as a housewife was adorable and she had a good attitude about it.

Jonathan wrote: "That's funny Christine. Those were actually my favorite parts of the story. I loved Dora. I wanted to take her out of the book and marry her myself. I just thought her ineptitude as a housewife was..."

I think my issue was that no one is that pathetically inept without it being self-indulgent. Hand the girl a broom and tell her grow up. ;)

Richard wrote: "One is Drood, narrated by a fictional version of Wilkie Collins. It is very dark apparently. "


is an excellent read, not classic excellent, but quite engaging and a real pager-turner

Christine (formerly known as Mayhem) wrote: "I think my issue was that no one is that pathetically inept without it being self-indulgent. Hand the girl a broom and tell her grow up. ;) ..."

Thank you so much for the laugh, Christine! I needed a laugh tonight! :-D

I can't wait to read it!

Adam wrote: "Christine (formerly known as Mayhem) wrote: "Adam wrote: "Cleo wrote: "How do you find Dickens does with his portrayal of female characters? Are they believable? Specifically, I found that Lucie Ma..."

Janet! Donkeys!

Since I have not read all of Dickens's works yet, it is a little hard for me to make a final decision. Right now I would go for Great Expectations and David Copperfield, but I am already looking forward to reading Bleak House, which I heard is very good as well.

BTW, Adam, I love Aunt Betsy. And she is definitely so different from the usual Dickensian female characters, at least as far as I can judge based on the amount of his novels I have read.

Adam wrote: "I still prefer hard copy for books I will read many times...."

Adam, I'm so glad someone else feels this way! I just bought a Kindle after months and months of putting it in my Amazon shopping cart and taking it out again, putting it in, taking it out ........ What pushed me over the edge was that my daughter has to read an obscure text for her writing program; to buy the paperback it was going to be $65 but to purchase a Kindle version it would cost $0.99. :-Z So my mind was made up for me.

I love the idea of the T-shirts ............ now I just need to read the book ......... :-)

Cleo wrote: "Adam wrote: "I still prefer hard copy for books I will read many times...."

Adam, I'm so glad someone else feels this way! I just bought a Kindle after months and months of putting it in my Amazo..."

Well, Chloe, I do not even have a real ereader, but own more than 600 "real" books. The only disadvantage is the space they take up, both in the shelves at home, and when moving/ travelling. This week I read a chapter of Martin Chuzzlewit on my ipod touch on an airplane - this was actually more or less the first time I did that. However, I love my hard copies and will probably stay very old-fashioned for another while. So you are not alone. :-) And I am glad to hear that I am not alone either. ;-)

My first Kindle went out on me about 9 months ago, and I had a ton of the Old Classics on there. In the interim, I started going to used bookstores and thrift stores, and I purchased over 300 books, mostly classics. A couple weeks ago, I got a Kindle Fire for free through my work, and I was utterly perplexed whether to read these titles on my Fire or my hard copies. For these discussions, I have found it better to read on Kindle since I can make notes and highlights without messing up my books. But, I love having the hard copies because they are a source of inspiration and make wonderful decorations on my book shelves.I do like reading on my e-reader better, it is easier to hold and I don't need a light.

Jonathan wrote: "My first Kindle went out on me about 9 months ago, and I had a ton of the Old Classics on there. In the interim, I started going to used bookstores and thrift stores, and I purchased over 300 books..."

Jonathan, (or anyone else who has both a Kindle and "real" books) do you get a different feeling when you're reading on Kindle than when you are reading an actual book? I'm not sure how to explain it ...... When I am holding an actual book in my hands and reading it there is a place I go to that is almost part of the experience. Do you lose this feeling reading on a Kindle?

Does anyone know what I'm talking about or does it sounds crazy? :-D

I don't have that feeling. I thought I would, but I find that I get 'lost' in the story and sometimes have to really think later to remember whether or not I read a certain book in book form or on an ereader. I'm so glad that it is that way for me. I love real books, but the well over 1000 that I have became a very real problem a few years ago when we moved to a much smaller home. :-)

Martha wrote: "I don't have that feeling. I thought I would, but I find that I get 'lost' in the story and sometimes have to really think later to remember whether or not I read a certain book in book form or on ..."

Thanks so much for your input, Martha! This is exactly what I was hoping to hear. I pick my new Kindle up at the post office next week. I don't know why I'm so terrified of it .... :-Z

My husband is a little afraid of it. He had some trouble with the pages turning too quickly for him and won't put in the time to get used to it. I find they turn/change quickly on the Kindle Fire, but the Kobo ereader that I have is a slower response. I like both, but prefer the Fire for the backlighting. Hope you enjoy yours. I have never regretted this purchase.

I often read classics on the go (ereaders or mobile devices), but mostly the charm of the regular book is way too powerful to resist. I rely on ebooks as a supplement for my classic reads and occasionally purchase hot books I really want to read RIGHT NOW when the gratification should be instantaneous, but in the duel 'real' books vs ebooks, paper wins hands down! Now an audio book is another story.
Oh, Dickens, you are still able to affect the minds of your readers, even if we are not discussing your novels:-)

Like I said, I like the e-reader because I can highlight and take notes. As far as missing out on part of the experience, I feel that sometimes. When I read the classics, I want to read them in the most original form, and obviously they were not originally read on a Kindle. Notwithstanding, there are some definite pros, such as I can read my Fire at night without a light until I dose off. A physical book and I have to get up half asleep and turn out the light. I suppose I could invest in the Clapper.

I prefer reading on my Kindle, especially large books. I take my reads with me everywhere and the Kindle is much more portable. I also read in bed and have been known to fall asleep with a,book propped on my chest. It's a rather rude awakening when a hefty tome falls over and smacks you in the face!

Jennifer wrote: "I prefer reading on my Kindle, especially large books. I take my reads with me everywhere and the Kindle is much more portable. I also read in bed and have been known to fall asleep with a,book pro..."

Or when said tome tumbles to the floor and lands with a loud thump.

Jennifer wrote: "I prefer reading on my Kindle, especially large books. I take my reads with me everywhere and the Kindle is much more portable. I also read in bed and have been known to fall asleep with a,book pro..."

No kidding!! LOL I've done that more times than I can count.

Richard wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I prefer reading on my Kindle, especially large books. I take my reads with me everywhere and the Kindle is much more portable. I also read in bed and have been known to fall aslee..."

YES! They are quite noisy.

Zulfiya wrote: "The Bleak House, hands down. The reasons are numerous - plot consistency, visionary and intriguing POV, mystery, skillful use of past and present narrative tenses, suspense, and a realistic heroine..."

Well, Zulfiya, I can only agree with you here, and I'd even say that apart from "Tristram Shandy", of course, and "The Brothers Karamazov" "Bleak House" is one of the novels I would choose if I had to spend quite a number of years on a desert island, because you can read it over and over again and still discover something new and unexpected. You actually named the merits of the novel in a nutshell, although I'd have my misgivings about Esther being a realistic heroine. I actually found her a bit too good to be true, but that's a problem most of Dickens's heroines and heroes have.

I love this discussion of "real" books and e-readers.

I admit to being a reader of both. I have an original Kindle (and also a 3rd generation), and got a Nook because there were some books available in e-pub format only. My Kindle is loaded with a vast array almost entirely consisting of free classics from Gutenberg and elsewhere, and I love being able to take over all these books with me whenever I go anywhere. (I have also started to use it for reading free e-books available on loan through my library, mostly recent non-fiction that is not out of copyright and thus not available from Gutenberg, but which I don't want to buy.)

OTOH, over the past 60+ years I have collected a considerable library, partly from receiving books for birthdays and Christmas from a large extended family, partly by inheriting a considerable library from my father, and partly because I adore used bookstores. About ten years ago I had to do a rough inventory of my library for insurance purposes, and at that time I had well over 10,000 volumes, and I am still buying.

I prefer reading a hardback book when I have the choice. But since I developed eye problems about ten years ago, which are still not fully resolved and limit me to reading book-sized text to about a half-hour at a time, I very much appreciate the ability on the Kindle and Nook to enlarge the type.

So both "real" and e-books have their places in my life, and I welcome both.

Zulfiya wrote: "The Bleak House, hands down. The reasons are numerous - plot consistency, visionary and intriguing POV, mystery, skillful use of past and present narrative tenses, suspense, and a realistic heroine..."

In terms of "best" Dickens, I agree, largely for the reasons you give. But for pure enjoyment and pleasure, I would give the nod to Little Dorrit.

I did like Little Dorrit immensely, although I felt the ending was too predictable.

Adam wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "I did like Little Dorrit immensely, although I felt the ending was too predictable."

Shh! I haven't read it yet."

Run, don't walk, to your nearest bookshop, and say "Please, sir (or madam), I want some more Dickens." But don't go to THIS bookshop: http://mzonline.com/bin/view/Python/B...

Adam wrote: "Very amusing Richard, very amusing. I'm waiting for it to come up in the group."

If it doesn't, you can always nudge and wink. Know what I mean? Say no more.

I'm slowly making my way through Little Dorrit. So far, it's not a favorite Dickens, but I suppose that could change.

Everyman, I've seen the pictures of your bookshelves. VERY nice!! I'm jealous. My husband would have a heart attack. He's always saying he needs to put more supports under the walls.

Martha wrote: "Everyman, I've seen the pictures of your bookshelves. VERY nice!! I'm jealous. My husband would have a heart attack. He's always saying he needs to put more supports under the walls.
"

I must admit that when we built the house (our retirement home) we put double beams under the library section. (I got a library, my wife got an art studio.)

We live in my in-law's home. She loved books, but not to the extent that I do. I have nowhere near the collection you have, but do have books in EVERY room! When our adult DD son moved in with us last fall, he looked around and said 'That's a lot of books'. No kidding! I still haven't gotten them all out of the room we gave him to be his den/living room. Eventually ... maybe ...

I'm with Erasmus, who said, or at least who is reported to have said, "When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes"

Everyman wrote: "I'm with Erasmus, who said, or at least who is reported to have said, "When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes""

I love that quote. It applies to so many of us here on GR.

Yes, I love that quote. Had forgotten who said it. When my mother died, I had to deal with all these jewelry companies/clubs that she had joined. She got jewelry every month ... costume, of course, but very pretty stuff. I was grumbling one day about her stupid jewelry as I would clear out a drawer and find several more pieces. Then it hit me that I had done the same thing with books all my life ... and not just clubs, but used book stores, new book stores, online shopping & on & on. :-) We each have our priorities. I think books are much the better choice. I rarely wear any of the jewelry ... even gave some to a daughter-in-law.

Great Expectations is probably the best, although I would like to put in a good word for MARTIN CHUZZLEWIT and "Dombey and Son", since they never have been very popular. The critics seem to prefer Bleak House. The worst-clearly Barnaby Rudge. Lastly, it's worth noting that in Dicken's lifetime his biggest seller was The Old Curiosity Shop.

Asking which is the best Dickens novel is somewhat asking to which is the best flavor of ice cream.

S wrote: "Great Expectations is probably the best, although I would like to put in a good word for MARTIN CHUZZLEWIT and "Dombey and Son", since they never have been very popular. The critics seem to prefer ..."

Really, The Old Curiosity Shop? I had no idea, that is very interesting information. Thanks.

Everyman wrote: "Asking which is the best Dickens novel is somewhat asking to which is the best flavor of ice cream."

Good point, Everyman! Or pie. I, like many, only like 2 kinds of pie ... hot pie & cold pie.