Children's Books discussion

Thanks Abigail. I saw this tonight on Facebook and was promptly greatly disturbed. I don't hate Amazon; I shop there quite a bit. I just feel that Amazon already has enough data on me from my purchases. Giving them ALL the books I can remember that I have read as well as all of my opinions in comment form seems like more than I want to do. I am already cautious in facebook about only marking things I am 100% positive I would not care if EVERYONE knew, but here....Goodreads works for me because I feel that can express my opinion without wondering how it will be used. I just...really wish this wasn't happening.

I concur. I discussed this very thing with my husband and he wondered if our reviews that have already been made are now owned by Amazon and can they do whatever they want with them? I am wondering if I should post more? Not that my reviews are anything that spectacular, but they are MINE.

Which brings me to wonder what the relationship is between bloggers and Google? I set up an account there so I could write reviews directly to my school kids and link it to my library website, but can google do what they want? I should investigate more closely. ugh.

Not that I wish to be cynical, but I think if Amazon is going to do something nefarious with the reviews, then it won't matter if you take them off now because they are probably backed up somewhere on the Goodreads server...

This is all sad thoughts for me. I am away from home right now and then I'm back to work and preparing for a book fair. I KNOW you have way more reviews than me. Big project. Do you post your reviews elsewhere?

Well, I cannot pull everything down now. Will you send me a message if you find another place to post them? please? I'll send you a message...

MAYBE it won't change too much. Hopefully details will be posted soon.

I'm very sad and very worried.

Removing reviews doesn't have to take long. It can be as easy as exporting "my books" and then choosing to "remove all books" but no matter how it's done, all comments at book reviews will be lost. So, I'm leaving mine up, though I might regret it. I have a question into Feedback about whether Amazon can post our reviews there.

And I went looking in Feedback and at the links at the bottom of the pages, but someone posted an enlightening (and disturbing) bit of the "fine print" that shows we DON'T own our reviews. Off to look again...

Here it is:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

first post at the top. (message 219)

and sort of the same thing but reiterating and making me think:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Goodreads never abused their power, or at least gave us opt outs/opt ins. I don't trust Amazon.

I hope I'm wrong. I love all the group and book review discussions here.

I have a lot of reviews that I should be writing, but until this issue is resolved, I will certainly not post any more reviews on Goodreads (I might still write the reviews on MS Word etc., but I will hold off posting them on GR until I know more). Maybe me being "lazy" and reluctant to compose and post reviews lately was in fact not such a bad thing.

I am also glad that I have backed up all my reviews in PDF form on my hard drive (even if I have to permanently remove them from GR, it means that I have a printable version elsewhere, and my MS Word notes also exist for some of my more recent reviews).

I think Otis and Patrick are being sincere saying that they believe GR terms, GR rules with regard to reviews and ownership of the same will not change. However, that does not mean (and might not mean) that Amazon will have the same ideas, that Amazon might not (even perhaps in the future) suddenly insist that GR change its policies regarding reviews.

I also wonder wether this might not have been a hostile takeover. Many of us are understandably upset at Goodreads for joining Amazon, but it might also be that Amazon (which is a much bigger and more powerful company than GR) engaged in a hostile takeover against which GR was powerless (just conjecture, but worth considering in my opinion). The naturally suspicious part of my being actually also wonders wether the recent problems of underage users in groups that featured sexual content etc. might have been instigated by Amazon (or by Amazon subsidiaries) as part of a hostile takeover, as part of wearing GR down with threats of lawsuits and the like.

Abigail wrote: "Another area of concern is groups. Will moderators still have final say about the policies in the groups they created? Or will there be amazon policies they have to follow?

Regarding reviews, I'm ..."

I sure hope that being linked to Amazon will not mean that this group will now be forced to allow authorial promotion.

I also cringe at the fact that there might now be both a "like" and a "dislike" button on reviews. I know Otis and Patrick do not want a "dislike" button, but it might just be forced down their (and our) collective throats by Amazon (and this might easily happen with reviews as well, no matter what GR staff wants/desires).

I also agree with Abigail and Gundula's concern about moderator control and group policies. This group is so special and successful because of the limits you all put in place and we agreed to upon joining. A group of this size would be unmanageable without rules. They are the kinds of rules that allow discussion and without them the discussion would be drowned out. I have been a part of this group for a relatively short time and it makes me upset that the character, tone, or "feel" of the group might change because of this. I find myself wondering if there is a virtual place to move the group to, even if it meant starting over, if things change as much as they could. Does it make sense to bombard Amazon with letters now voicing these concerns?

Jennifer wrote: "I also agree with Abigail and Gundula's concern about moderator control and group policies. This group is so special and successful because of the limits you all put in place and we agreed to upon ..."

Hmm, I would probably hold off bombarding Amazon with letters etc. until we know some more. I would not want to give them any ideas (such as allowing authorial promotion in groups for instance, even those groups where it is now not permitted).

Let's see what happens before we start complaining to Amazon en masse (because Amazon just might be the kind of corporate bully who would use complaints by GR members to reign in GR, to impose or further impose their rules and regulations on GR).

That would be my tendency as well, to wait, but I thought I'd ask. Good point about not giving them any ideas.

My concern is what this will mean to the indie booksellers and self publishers out there. They have a history of trying to crush them.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Books/chapte...

I am leary of what this is going to Goodreads. What is the payoff for Amazon? Nothing if they leave it as is - except to mine data from us.

I've been worried about author promotion rules too. But Ack! I'd forgotten about the dislike button issue. I'd hate that so much, almost as much as deleting/editing reviews.

I'm waiting and seeing too. My opinion is we'll have to keep forever vigilant because Amazon can change their policies at any time and they might not inform us of changes.

Lisa wrote: "I've been worried about author promotion rules too. But Ack! I'd forgotten about the dislike button issue. I'd hate that so much, almost as much as deleting/editing reviews.

I'm waiting and seeing..."

A "dislike" button for reviews and comments would just be horrible. I think that both Otis and Patrick do not want a "dislike" button, but I still wonder how much clout and input they will be able to have if Amazon were to say "do this" (same worry I have with regard to reviews).

Otis and Patrick will no longer have the most clout; Amazon will. Hopefully, they'll value Goodreads and want to keep it as is. Time will tell.

Lisa wrote: "Otis and Patrick will no longer have the most clout; Amazon will. Hopefully, they'll value Goodreads and want to keep it as is. Time will tell."

Sigh!!

Here's how The Authors Guild responded to the news:

Amazon's garden walls are about to grow much higher. In a truly devastating act of vertical integration, Amazon is buying Goodreads, its only sizable competitor for reader reviews and a site known for the depth and breadth of its users' book recommendations. Recommendations from like-minded readers appear to be the Holy Grail of online book marketing. By combining Goodreads' recommendation database with Amazon's own vast databases of readers' purchase histories, Amazon's control of online bookselling approaches the insurmountable.

"Amazon's acquisition of Goodreads is a textbook example of how modern Internet monopolies can be built," said Scott Turow, Authors Guild president. "The key is to eliminate or absorb competitors before they pose a serious threat. With its 16 million subscribers, Goodreads could easily have become a competing on-line bookseller, or played a role in directing buyers to a site other than Amazon. Instead, Amazon has scuttled that potential and also squelched what was fast becoming the go-to venue for on-line reviews, attracting far more attention than Amazon for those seeking independent assessment and discussion of books. As those in advertising have long known, the key to driving sales is controlling information."

One example should make it clear how formidable this combination is. For Animals Make Us Human by Temple Grandin and Catherine Johnson, Amazon has 123 customer reviews, and B&N has about 40 (they report 150, but that figure includes ratings as well as reviews). Goodreads swamps these figures, with 469 reviews and 2,266 ratings for the book.

As an independent platform, Goodreads, with its 16 million members, posed a serious competitive threat to Amazon. No more.

Excellent suggestion.

Apparently, Amazon has a partial ownership interest in LibraryThing as well. It is keeping other users from making that leap at this time.

Jennifer wrote: "Apparently, Amazon has a partial ownership interest in LibraryThing as well. It is keeping other users from making that leap at this time."

Exactly!

Chandra wrote: "Add me to the list of concerned. I'm also mostly concerned about ownership of reviews. I absolutely do not want my reviews exported or censored. I also would hate to see a dislike button appear ..."

I really hope that this will not happen, that even those who are now not writing reviews until more is known (like I am to an extent) and those removing or temporarily removing reviews (like I believe Abigail is doing) will not leave Goodreads altogether.

I wonder if in a worst case scenario, groups like the Children's Literature Group, the Kindred Spirits Group and the School Story Group (and others, but those are probably the ones I personally consider most important for me) could be exported en masse to an new site like The Reading Room (which I have not checked out yet).

I am also concerned regarding ownership or reuse of reviews here. I would hate the addition of a dislike button on reviews for Goodreads. In addition, I really don't want to be bombarded by marketing. I get almost all of my books through the library, so I'm not going to suddenly start buying from Amazon. I really love Goodreads and am very unhappy at this purchase.

I will work on backing up my reviews - I have copies of over 600 already copied elsewhere - but that still leaves about 600 more *sigh* This may also finally get me to start a blog, which I've been thinking about for some time. Not that I think my comments or content is that amazing, but I prefer it to be MY comments and content - and not Amazon's!

I plan on staying involved in groups here for the time being - even though my involvement is infrequent.
I may also stop posting reviews here but just rate books, until we see what is happening.

The Reading Room is also owned by a big group, I've heard, and who's to say Amazon won't buy it up at some point. I hope this and other groups survive, and I hope Goodreads survives.

I might regret not doing what Abigail is doing. Once Amazon owns Goodreads all existing reviews will be under their control. What they do with that power we don't know yet. And we'll have to be forever vigilant. Even if they leave Goodreads alone at first, they can drastically change things down the road, one month, one year, a decade, etc., if they still own it. If this group and others I care about move, I'll follow it/them, whether or not I stay at Goodreads. I would desperately miss Goodreads and all/any of my friends here who chose to leave. It would be hard to follow 50 blogs and half a dozen reading sites if my friends spread out all over the place. I doubt every subgroup of friends I have could (would) convene in any one other place.

I wonder if they will change the rating system. Amazon leaves off the "amazing" thus causing people to rate the book higher. They want people to buy books, thus they want as many stars as possible.

I find myself depressed by the idea that there seems to be no way to escape the ever present controlling corporations. I shop at Amazon and Barnes & Noble and small bookstores (where I can find them) as well as other online vendors like Abe books and Chinaberry and Better World Books. I don't feel like this should give these companies the ability to own all of my opinions and store all my shopping and preference data to sell to others or manipulate my shopping with tailored advertising. But it does. If I want to be a part of any kind of non cash purchasing or internet sharing I always have to consent to giving everything I do legally to some company. Goodreads has never felt that way, but it was always an illusion. Depressing, but this situation with Goodreads and Amazon is probably not much different everything else we do online or even simply with a credit card.

Michele wrote: "I find myself depressed by the idea that there seems to be no way to escape the ever present controlling corporations. I shop at Amazon and Barnes & Noble and small bookstores (where I can find th..."

Michele-you summed up my feelings perfectly.

Kirei wrote: "I wonder if they will change the rating system. Amazon leaves off the "amazing" thus causing people to rate the book higher. They want people to buy books, thus they want as many stars as possible."

Good point, Kirei. I noticed a long time ago that Amazon's rating system/legend was different from Goodreads. It's a subtle difference, but I know you're right. More stars=more books sold. I don't rate books to sell them...

Goodreads has said that they will continue with the options to link to other book stores. I'm not sure that this might be the doom and gloom everyone thinks it is.

It may just be that goodreads gets extra backing and capital to take flight in the right direction.

Or it may be an utter disaster and I'm being an optimist. But if they do mess it up they'll have an awful lot of angry readers and writers baying at their door.

Absolutely, it's not in Amazon's interest to change things too much. It is a shame that a big corporation has yet again swallowed a smaller section.
But it could be a great boost.

As long as the Goodreads community stick together it should be ok.

Just follow the advice of the Hitchhikers hide and

*Don't Panic*

All very interesting posts from the community. I think Amazon brought Goodreads as part of their wider strategy to protect their market position from Apple. (My blog post a month ago put this question out there.) For what it is worth I don't think Amazon will change the platform as that would be harmful to their position in their anti-trust suit they are currently fighting. However I do believe they will want to access the review platform for target marketing. We just have to wait and see

E. wrote: "All very interesting posts from the community. I think Amazon brought Goodreads as part of their wider strategy to protect their market position from Apple. (My blog post a month ago put this quest..."

But it is precisely the reviews and wether Amazon will allow GR reviews to remain independent (owned by GR members, and posted only on GR unless allowed otherwise by the reviewer) that is a main if not the main cause for and of concern for many of us. For me, if GR review policy changes, if it were to become similar to Amazon review policy or if GR reviews were suddenly owned by Amazon, that would be an unacceptable situation.

Fair point Gundala we will have to "watch" the terms and conditions changes closely.

And constantly. Amazon will be able to change anything at any time and without notice.

And, the other issue is that Amazon (and Goodreads) will be pushing Kindle only editions, and books published as Kindle only editions. Even avid readers should be bothered by this. I don't think they'll fully succeed but I'll bet they make tons of progress.

This is really disturbing news. It diminishes my trust in and comfort level with joining groups like goodreads.

Gundula wrote: "E. wrote: "All very interesting posts from the community. I think Amazon brought Goodreads as part of their wider strategy to protect their market position from Apple. (My blog post a month ago put..."

I agree with Gundala that the key points for me are also the ownership of reviews, a potential switch to Amazon reviewing rules, allowing a dislike button for reviews, and the use of reviews to sell books. I write my reviews to give my opinion of books, not to help sell them. I buy few books myself.

I have rated one book here since the announcement, without a review. It was a singularly unsatisfying transaction for me. I have spent a lot of time on this site but didn't realize how it would make me feel to not review something. Or maybe that's just me.

So....I reviewed a book today despite my trepidation. I really liked it, and just wanted to share! Sadly, I think this means that I am giving in to the pressures of corporate technology! eek!

Michele wrote: "So....I reviewed a book today despite my trepidation. I really liked it, and just wanted to share! Sadly, I think this means that I am giving in to the pressures of corporate technology! eek!"

I've reviewed 2 books since the announcement and might continue for now. It's just not as much fun anymore. I'm still deciding what to do.

Chandra wrote: "I've gone ahead and reviewed as well. If I can catch my breath I am still going to start working on backing up/archiving my own reviews."
So far we have discussed out fears but maybe (the naive optimist in me still lives) they will use the data they are mining to discover the less often read gems and promote them to the general public. One example that comes to mind is which was published around the same time as . Russian Winter was promoted widely in BN despite being a mediocre book. Silence of the Trees I found through Goodreads and it is a gem (both adult books.) Could this level the playing field a bit for those lesser known works, or will it widen the gulf?

Christine, I think you are right. One thing Amazon excels at is marketing. I get an email from Amazon anytime an author I've purchased in the past sneezes - and that's okay by me! So I think they will use the talk on Goodreads to further promote sales through Amazon. Frankly, I'm okay with that. If I didn't want my reading to be social, I wouldn't be on Goodreads or be purchasing online. If they want to tell me that my friend Christine likes Russian Winter, I'll listen. That's why I'm here, right?

Again we shall have to wait and see. Goodreads was started by two people with limited funds.
Perhaps Amazon isn't the squeaky clean company we'd all like it to be, but what company is?
At least Amazon can give Goodreads a boost. Perhaps we won't like ALL the changes that they implement, but I think we have to wait and see before we start shaking our heads in dismay.

I'm for now waiting and seeing but there is a HUGE flaw with that plan. Once the sale is final, it might be too late for us to make another choice. Amazon could change the rules so we can't remove our books and/or so that we can't export our books. Then we'd be stuck. As far as groups, they might change the rules so we can no longer have rules against authorial promotion. Etc. etc. etc.

Fair comment.

I am wary, as well. If I had written detailed reviews, I would find the prospect of someone else owning them very disconcerting. For me, GR is more social - where I have the opportunity to discuss books with people who know more than me. I hope you stay, Abigail. I value your input.

Abigail wrote: "Christine wrote: "For me, GR is more social - where I have the opportunity to discuss books with people who know more than me. I hope you stay, Abigail. I value your input..."

Thanks, Christine. I..."

I wonder (if Amazon does not leave groups alone) if there would be a way to actually move the entire group to another site like LT.

Ugh. At least so far LT has no folders, no shelves, and just isn't set up to host most GR type groups.

Lisa wrote: "Ugh. At least so far LT has no folders, no shelves, and just isn't set up to host most GR type groups."

LT definitely does not lend itself to the kind of groups we are used to having here (and it looks like TPTB at LT are in many ways even more stubborn than at GR when it comes to suggestions and the like, sigh).

LT is a book cataloging site. When it started there were no social aspects at all so there have been many changes. I really don't like it though, except for book cataloging.

Chandra, others - exporting your books is easy, and the reviews get exported with them. I'm doing it every few days now, and I am not a geek. Simply go to 'My Books', look at the lower left side under your list of shelves, click import/export, and then on that page, click 'export to a csv. file' on the upper right.