Modern Good Reads discussion

I’ve read a lot of action books over my years and have enjoyed a great many of them. One I was reading had several fight scenes involving guns and super natural powers. (right up my alley!) However, no one ever died. Everyone, even the bad guys were fine in the end with only a few cuts and bruises. Do other readers like that?

Call me morbid, but I want to read about someone kicking the bucket. Usually if one of the good guys bite it at the beginning and then the bad guy gets his comeuppance at the end, is a winner for me.

that's just odd. if weapons are involved, i expect to see some death. I've never personally written a scene like that in which no one dies. how graphic i am depends on the importance of the character, but there should be death in that type of fighting scene

Yeah, I definitely like some people to die. If there are battles, guns and superpowers involved, someone is going to die; having no one going down is just unrealistic.

Thank you everyone for the responses. I can see that I am not alone in this. I was disappointed in the book that I read where people barely got hurt. It felt like I was reading a kid’s book.

Drako wrote: "that's just odd. if weapons are involved, i expect to see some death. I've never personally written a scene like that in which no one dies. how graphic i am depends on the importance of the charact..."

I just have to ask, how many of the scribes writing about murder & death have actually killed, lived the experience of an adrenalin filled few minutes. How many watched a person die over a period of a few minutes, how many actually saw a serial killer? In most books I find the scene described far from the reality. I see movies made for the attraction of violence without basic knowledge of the killers mind. If I need more than 2 rounds to put a man down I am usually dead. So I find it very amusing to see a crime thriller written into a fantasy!

Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.

Love that line. :)

In the books I read and write, it would be very strange if no one died.

I like worlds with real consequence, where people can and do die.

Travis wrote: "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.

Love that line. :)

In the books I read and write, it would be very strange if no one died.

I like worlds with real consequence, where people can and do..."

It was the Bishop of Beziers that uttered the words when he ordered the Catholics of Toulouse to kill all the non-believer Cathars & Jews...a genocide ordered by the Church of Rome

Erich wrote: "Travis wrote: "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.

Love that line. :)

In the books I read and write, it would be very strange if no one died.

I like worlds with real consequence, where pe..."

While I don't doubt your research is right, I think there has been more than one novel and cheesy action flick that put that line to good use.

Seriously though. In novels where life-threatening situations occur, there needs to be real consequence. Action-thriller-suspense-paranormal-horror-fantasy, people need to die, at least one.

Just one measly death is better than none.

Drako wrote: "that's just odd. if weapons are involved, i expect to see some death. I've never personally written a scene like that in which no one dies. how graphic i am depends on the importance of the charact..."

I definitely second that. But what if your character has a no-kill policy?

Drago wrote: "Drako wrote: "that's just odd. if weapons are involved, i expect to see some death. I've never personally written a scene like that in which no one dies. how graphic i am depends on the importance ..."
what are we in, an anime? lol

no seriously, if they have the no kill policy and it's established, the question becomes how do they keep that policy in tact in these types of volatile situations?

And now that I think about it, I have never written a manuscript where someone DIDN'T die. Even my YA novel has a death, two to be precise.

I don't think I have ever written a novel where less than two people died.

Wow, I never realized I was so ruthless. LOL.

Erich wrote: "Drako wrote: "that's just odd. if weapons are involved, i expect to see some death. I've never personally written a scene like that in which no one dies. how graphic i am depends on the importance ..."
I like crime thrillers, personally- especially ones centered around revenge. But it'd be boring if every antagonist was taken down by a marksman with 100% accuracy every time. It's amusing as hell to make the bad guys think they have a chance before they end up on the receiving end of an emptied assault rifle.

Drako wrote: "Drago wrote: "Drako wrote: "that's just odd. if weapons are involved, i expect to see some death. I've never personally written a scene like that in which no one dies. how graphic i am depends on t..."

Something like Batman when it comes to his relationship with the Joker; can't kill, so you inflict injuries that makes him wish for the merciful release of death. I've always had killer protagonists when I was writing stuff growing up; I only asked 'cause I'm considering challenging myself.

I will tell you about a killing, a true story....he was with bayonets nailed to a giant Baobab tree, then they went to work on him. Ared hor knife cut him open from the pelvic bone to the sternum. He screamed when the glowing blade set his flesh smoldering. Umako then reachhed into his belly cvity and pulled out his intestine, thirty feet of it. He strung it out and with a stake anchored it to the ground. The screaming stopped, the man was conscious but we could see it in his face he was not giving the Simbas the plaesure of screaming. There was slowly blood running from his mouth, he bit through his tongue, when the Siafu ants crawled into his intestine and his body. Four men were watching two hundred feet away hidden by the greenery of the river. Watching him twitch and drool blood. He looked in the direction of the trees, you could see in his eyes what he wanted. Let me go, do it now, please! The four took a count of the Simba rebel troop, eighty of them, maybe a little more. Most are drunk or stonedd. A killing feast for four willing to risk it all. The first shot took the prisoners life clean & efficient. It took less then 10 minutes and it was over. One of the four would never again see his family. After the firefight, like always the are wounded, none would be left to live. Walking between the sqirming and the dead, the injured were all put to death. This was a work for the knives. Later sixty miles and two days later the three survivors were seen washing the blood of their camos and boots. None were ever the same again. When they kneeledd down to cut a throat, they had to kneel in blood, it left stains on their pants and souls. One of the took down the white soldier from the tree, he was the only one buried. The others, the Simbas, were left to the vultures and the critters of the jungle. One of the white mercenaries, a 'White Tiger' dreamt for years of washing his boots, he remembers the coppery smell of the blood it was stronger than the damp decay of the jungle Aug 17 1962

Thanks for responding eveyone. In my stories, if there is a killing, there is remorse that follows. To me, it just feels more real that way.

I always like to kill someone off in my books, and try to make it someone people least expect. What's the point of being god of my own universe if I don't weave a little chaos every now and again?

I agree Riley, we are a god of sorts in our little worlds where no one takes a breath without our promission. :P

Riley wrote: "I always like to kill someone off in my books, and try to make it someone people least expect. What's the point of being god of my own universe if I don't weave a little chaos every now and again?"

Interesting. I read recently that G.R.R. Martin got a lot of grief for some of the characters he killed off. I've killed off a couple that I wished now I had kept alive for a sequel. Well, we must keep on keeping on. Is it working for you?

But Martin's death scenes are perhaps his best work. Amazing, powerful - to then bring those characters back would taint the memory. Sure, he lost some great characters, but in the act, he created some masterful fiction. One should write a book with the intent to make it the best story it can be, without thinking ahead to a sequel. If a character needs to die to do that, so be it.

Well I haven't had any complaints yet, but the book has only just been released. Mind you, I also killed off lots of people in my first book.

I do think that if you're going to kill off important characters, then you need to make it a truly memorable death. One of the issues I had when reading the last of the Hunger Games was how rushed the deaths of some of my favourite characters were - like they were almost added as an afterthought. I felt ripped off after investing so much energy in liking those characters.

Steven wrote: "Riley wrote: "I always like to kill someone off in my books, and try to make it someone people least expect. What's the point of being god of my own universe if I don't weave a little chaos every n..."

I killed off some of my characters in the Blood Tithe series. My proofreader complained so much that I rewrote the ending. I'm glad she did now as I have more books to add to the set.

Riley wrote: "I do think that if you're going to kill off important characters, then you need to make it a truly memorable death. One of the issues I had when reading the last of the Hunger Games was how rushed ..."

I totally agree. If a main character dies, it must be memorable.

Glenn wrote: "Steven wrote: "Riley wrote: "I always like to kill someone off in my books, and try to make it someone people least expect. What's the point of being god of my own universe if I don't weave a littl..."

Keep that proofreader. Advice that turns out to be good is hard to find.

Can I put in a plug for serious wounding? As in, your protagonist gets shot or slugged and that affects the plotline. By wounding a main character, you reinforce the real danger of the situation, but by leaving them alive, you open up additional possibilities. They have to hide, or seek medical attention and that thwarts their quest, temporarily. Maybe while that is happening, they find a clue or meet someone who helps them. It also gives you a chance for a break in the action, to slow things down a little for exposition or deepening of character.

Death, I think, should be reserved for serious turns of plot. Except for minions, who can die by the dozens.

Patrick wrote: "Death, I think, should be reserved for serious turns of plot. Except for minions, who can die by the dozens. "

I love to kill off minions. They are ripe for it. Its one of the most enjoyable parts of writing, all those disposable minions.

:)

Travis wrote: "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.

Love that line. :)

In the books I read and write, it would be very strange if no one died.

I like worlds with real consequence, where people can and do..."

If they move ... kill 'em! Wild Bunch - greatest film ever made.

Travis wrote: "Patrick wrote: "Death, I think, should be reserved for serious turns of plot. Except for minions, who can die by the dozens. "

I love to kill off minions. They are ripe for it. Its one of the most..." Oh yeah, I like building up the death scene by killing them off right away, then reintroducing them as they lead up to their gory deaths.

Riley wrote: "I always like to kill someone off in my books, and try to make it someone people least expect. What's the point of being god of my own universe if I don't weave a little chaos every now and again?" Do you think this is more powerful - open with the gruesome deaths of innocents without letting the reader know who they are. Then go back a few hours earlier and slowly lead up to their deaths giving obvious hints to what will happen and there's nothing can be done about it.

Erich wrote ...how many of the scribes writing about murder & death have actually killed, lived the experience of an adrenalin filled few minutes...

Erich, your question and the gruesome event you recount later in the thread couldn't be more significant. I've lived a few of those adrenaline-filled minutes, and I've seen as much as I care to of violent death and its aftermath.

Anyone who writes about violence as if were an exciting game or a matter of no consequence is either a sociopath or writing from no real-world experience. I am especially disgusted by those hyper-violent 'entertainments' like the Saw movies that present horrors approaching your real-world African event as something to be enjoyed!

There is a good deal of violence in my novel IDIOT'S TALE, but I think my characters respond to it appropriately.

Idiot's Tale

Anthony wrote: "Erich wrote ...how many of the scribes writing about murder & death have actually killed, lived the experience of an adrenalin filled few minutes... Erich, your question and the gruesome event you ..." well said Anthony, the SAW films were nothing but torture porn with zero story. I n my soon to be released novel I have violence galore but it's tempered by the fact the violence is committed by demons and vampires. Make the violence OTT by OTT characters.

Patrick wrote: "Can I put in a plug for serious wounding? As in, your protagonist gets shot or slugged and that affects the plotline. By wounding a main character, you reinforce the real danger of the situation, b..."

Hey Patrick, thanks for responding. Major wounds would have been welcome in the book I read. So true, a bad wound could reinforce the danger.

Anthony wrote: "Erich wrote ...how many of the scribes writing about murder & death have actually killed, lived the experience of an adrenalin filled few minutes... Erich, your question and the gruesome event you ..."

I agree Anthony, murder or even causing serious harm to someone comes with a price.

When it comes to violence (or sex) in literature, I think there should be a solid, literary reason for including it; otherwise, it is nothing but detestable perversion (or pornography).

Erich has shown with his true story that real life presents us violence which is so horrific that we do not really need any violence in fiction. And if I understand Erich right, this is what he wanted to demonstrate. I am not sure if everyone caught on to that.

@ Erich: Agreeing with you on this subject does not change that I utterly disagree with you concerning your political views.

Erich, is this something you witnessed or is it something you read or heard? It is hard to tell from the writing. We have a similar story here. Two soldiers (Boyd & Parker) captured by the Indians. One was cut the same his intestines tied to a tree and allegedly made to run around it, pulling his intestines out. We talked to our county coroner about it. The pain would be unbearable to basically be gutted, and he would most likely be unconscious.

My point is most writers haven't experienced these things. Research well. There is a good site I like that also has a Facebook page they post cool things on. It's called forensic outreach http://forensicoutreach.com/ FB https://www.facebook.com/forensicoutr.... They teach forensic science in the UK and share their info.

I got a neat graphic they posted on FB showing the stages of bug activity on a body. It was a drawing, but very helpful for a writer. They had another on different bullets and the marks made on the casings. I would like to be as accurate as possible.

I think you have to be thinking of your audience when you decide to include or not include violence. As a writer, you are free to apply a moral standard to your work, but I think you should also be free to ignore any such limits. What you can't ignore are the sensibilities of your audience, however.

I wrote a very bloody climax to "The Godhead Formula," and I was concerned that it might be too much, especially since the opening chapter was also pretty violent. After reflection, I decided that a satisfyingly gruesome death for a very evil character balanced the bloodshed. But maybe I was wrong, I'll leave it to my readers to decide.

Cindy wrote: "Erich, is this something you witnessed or is it something you read or heard? It is hard to tell from the writing. We have a similar story here. Two soldiers (Boyd & Parker) captured by the Indians...."
I witnessed the disembowelment, the victim was still alive and screaming. The blade used to cut was red hot and cauterized the wound, there was hardly any blood. I do not know how long the man was alive, by the time we took him down, 3 days later, ants had been Siafu ants had been hacking away on him. It was not (in my opinion) the pain that killed him, the horror was the warlord watched the whole time, he smiled at the screaming man. But that is Africa, where brutality is a tribal tool of war.

I call these instances "CSI:Miami forensics". In other words, don't believe a word of it! With a police background and a Master's Degree in Forensic Science, I have to just roll my eyes sometimes at the sheer idiocy of some of the things I read/see. (Silly case in point: WHITE slacks and HIGH HEELS at a crime scene?!?! LOL)

Gruesome death in writing is, in my opinion, contextual. Does it have a point? Does it work withing the story (usually horror genre) or is it simply dumped in to shock? In my experience humans are capable of the most horrific actions - sometimes merely for their own amusement, other times, as Erich points out, as a tool. Sometimes, it makes me laugh (bitterly) when people use the word "humane" - as if being human automatically means pure and compassionate. NOT in my experience!

I also tend to be happier killing off minions, although I have surprised myself by killing off loved characters. I was forced to undo one killing early on in the revision process when I was advised that it would demotivate my antagonist so much, the readers would believe him incapable of continuing with the plot.

However, I find it almost impossible to harm my younger characters. It feels so wrong. One of my betas is constantly telling me off for bringing my mothering instincts into the plot. Does anyone else have that problem?

I have no problem killing minions, loved ones, and bystanders who shouldn't have been standing by.

My issue is making sure my characters have enough redeeming qualities to maintain likeability. I write some very morally grey characters.

:)

Leiah wrote: "I call these instances "CSI:Miami forensics". In other words, don't believe a word of it! With a police background and a Master's Degree in Forensic Science, I have to just roll my eyes sometimes a..."

You are so right, 'Human' is just a word we like to use to minimise the atrocious behaviour some of us, creatures walking on two hind legs, use! Most simians use aggression only for defence, we the smartest beast on this planet, supposedly, use it just to fit our purpose. In writing, all writers use a certain amount of liberty, too often making huge mistakes, aberration of the truth, either because it fit their idea of the subject or it sounds taken from TV programs like CSI asf. Killing is a concept, death is a fact, the how - many ways can I describe, is again the fiction.

I deleted the last comment from Lilo.

MGR does not condone personal or discriminatory attacks against other group members.

I understand how some of these discussions can become passionate.

I, myself, am a passionate reader and writer. But there is a certain kind of passion that doesn't translate well in Goodreads, its called intolerance.

That kind of passion has little place in the world of books or bookish discussions.

And Erich, death is a plot device, among many other things. And if used with skill, talent, and a passionate flair, it infuses a writing with many different kinds of emotion.

Most of what I read and all of what I write involves death at one point or another. I guess I like it gritty, a little dark, a little bit of thriller intensity.

Militant/war/action novels aren't really my thing. But I have read some good ones, and I do enjoy them from time to time.

And so I say let there be death, and I will read it. LOL.

:)

Travis wrote: "I deleted the last comment from Lilo.

MGR does not condone personal or discriminatory attacks against other group members.

I understand how some of these discussions can become passionate.

I, my..."

And there will be death, there will be blood, there will be endings of one kind or the other!
Thank you for maintaining a civil vein throughout !

Leiah wrote: "I call these instances "CSI:Miami forensics". In other words, don't believe a word of it! With a police background and a Master's Degree in Forensic Science, I have to just roll my eyes sometimes a..." So true, Leiah, not to mention long hair and loose ties dangling in gore. Come on!

Travis wrote: "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.

Love that line. :)

In the books I read and write, it would be very strange if no one died.

I like worlds with real consequence, where people can and do..." Classic line - "If they move - kill'em!" The Wild Bunch

My fave film is The Wild Bunch and I have a rare director's cut that has only ever been shown the once. When my father watched it he absolutely loved it but said it was unrealistic. When asked he said only if a bullet hits an artery will you see blood, mostly there is just a hole with smoke leaking out then a spreading dark patch of blood.

I am sure your father ws a great father, but: he talked from the perspective of a soldier! A full metal jacketed army bullet will go right through, that is its purpose. A soft point or hollow point will tear and shred the inside of muscles, soft organs and leave a exit wound of much larger proportions. A lung hit with this type of munitions will bleed very much so will any wound incurred with a large caliber. Sometimes you can hit them in the arm and the arm is torn off, imagine he blood. Yes TV and movie show the excessive in all situations, sometimes a ten round S&M fires twenty rounds, it is for the effect, not the fact! Thw wild Bunch was a great movie, in some places it reached iconic status!

The unit slogan for 2nd. Bn., 26th. Marines during the mid-sixties was, "Killing is our business; business is good!"

You can't possibly be more explicit regarding your mindset than that. This seems to be the subliminal message being delivered in most action-oriented books and movies today.

Jim wrote: "The unit slogan for 2nd. Bn., 26th. Marines during the mid-sixties was, "Killing is our business; business is good!"

You can't possibly be more explicit regarding your mindset than that. This seem..."
You are so right. It is more for the ef

You are so right. Action movies and most of these genre books are written by the need to get the viewers or readers attention. The real wars are different. Slogans like the 2nd Bn of the Marines existed for centuries. The Legion le Etranger used one ' March au Creve' March or Die. The Simbas used 'kill them we eat their heart' but none of it matches the visual exaggeration of movies. Video Games are even more so unreal, but then again if it sells do it!