The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of May 20, 2013 - May 26, 2013, we are reading Chapter Sixteen of Woodrow Wilson: A Biography.

This week's reading assignment is:

WEEK NINE: May 20, 2013 - May 26, 2013 (p 333 - 361)
Chapter 16. To Run Again

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bryan Craig will be moderating this discussion.

Welcome,

~Bryan

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

John Milton Cooper Jr.

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS ARE EXTREMELY DENSE SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

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John Milton Cooper Jr.

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter Sixteen: To Run Again

The Republicans were in better political shape in 1916 than 1912, but Wilson was optimistic. For re-election, Wilson focused on the progressive theme with the 8-hour day, minimum wage, child labor reform, retirement, and vocational education.

Charles Evan Hughes was nominated over TR for the Republicans. He was a more conservative candidate. The Democrats nominated Wilson with Bryan's backing and used the famous line "kept us out of war."

Wilson continued through several key legislation: child labor law, raising the excise and inheritance tax, and a 8-hour work day for railway workers. The Adamson Act was a bit controversial as it gave the Federal government more power to mediate in railroad disputes and could take the lines over if there was a military necessity.

Hughes was off to a rough start with a poor acceptance speech and a accidental "snub" of Hiram Johnson. Bryan barnstormed the West and Midwest for Wilson, while Wilson went on the campaign trial. Republicans began to score points by painting the Democrats as a party of special interest and class specific legislation. If the Democrats won, they argued, there will be war. German and anti-Allies groups opposed Wilson and the Republicans controlled the Northeast and big donors.

Gompers and other labor organizations supported Wilson and Wilson himself had an effective front porch campaign to educate people on the issues.

It was a very close election, one of the closest in history. Wilson won by the electoral vote of 277-254 and won the popular vote. The House and Senate were still in Democratic hands. Ohio and the West really brought Wilson to victory as the Republicans fared better than 1912, and Wilson shaped a future Democratic coalition of farmers, labor, and the South.

A couple things I found interesting in this chapter:

I did not know that "he kept us out of the war" originally applied, at least in part, to war with Mexico (which we did keep out of) rather than WW I (which, of course, we did not).

This chapter whetted my appetite for the next: I had been only dimly aware of just how "neutral" we were, prior to entering the war. I had always thought that we were more or less on the allied side from the start, but just not involved (sort of like 1939, 1940 in WWII) but that seems not to have been the case.

I am also curious how we came to be such firm friends of the British - in 1916, it was sort of touch and go; certainly earlier in our history we had been enemies. By 1939 it was obvious that we were to be allies.

It is also interesting to continue to see the beginnings of the current political set-up, where the two parties are really starkly divided along a liberal conservative axis. Perhaps the closest thing we have now to Bob LaFollette in the senate is Bernie Sanders, who, sure enough, is not in the Democratic party but certainly sits with the Democrats.

Thanks, Peter.

I did not know about the slogan, either. The West seemed to hear "Mexico" when they heard that line and it worked. I think the East heard "Europe" and it worked.

We see a little stress between the U.S. and Britain, especially after the Irish uprising, British officials opening up U.S. mail, and Britain blacklisting U.S. companies who were suspected of German ties. I think you really begin to see how the war infected so many things.

LaFollette is an interesting character and you do see the progressive elements losing its effectiveness as an issue as the war looms. I do think many Democrats still supported the issue on the whole, but the Republicans really lost interest.

Try this book if you want to know more about U.S-Anglo relations leading up to this point:

by Iestyn Adams

I'm surprised there was such a large gap between election day and inauguration day. four months is an incredibly long time. I suppose it was meant to give the incoming president time to get his affairs in order and physically move. i think Wilson's plan of resigning if he lost was incredibly noble.

Four months is long. I suspect you are right, Theresa, it took time. And Congress did not meet until December of that year! Different times.

It is a pretty noble plan...wow.

Theresa wrote: "I'm surprised there was such a large gap between election day and inauguration day. four months is an incredibly long time. I suppose it was meant to give the incoming president time to get his aff..."

A lot of it was related to how long it took to move, back in the early days of the Republic. Roads in many places were primitive, and travel was, of course, by horse (if you didn't have water access to the capitol).

Transportation is one of those things that is easy to forget about, nowadays, when we take it for granted that we can be anywhere in less than a day and ship across country in a few days.

Even to travel without luggage could take a couple weeks within the original 13 colonies.

Yet the political schedule didn't change until the 20th century.

Well said, Peter, it took forever to travel around.

It was in these crises like the Civil War and the Great Depression with a new president coming in that this gap really hurt. They had to change it.

It's interesting to know that Wilson could have made a huge difference in the running of the Presidency if he had thought more of the idea of bringing the Vice President into the fold of the affairs of his position . . . this would have made discharging the duties of that office so much easier after he suffered his stroke. And in later years . . . thinking of FDR and Kennedy . . . the transfer of power much easier for Truman and LBJ instead of essentially leaving them in the dark until they were thrust into those positions.

Actually after Lincoln's assassination you would have thought this issue would have been considered . . . and some form of transition would have been defined in law.

Yeah, I guess tradition prevailed and a president felt a VP would encroach into his territory. Egos, you know.

Hmmm . . . that same Hubris that so permeates the office.

I found it interesting the Cooper brings in more background info about the foot dragging of the US to jump in with the allies . . . I hadn't heard much about the issue of Irish independence from GB causing such an uproar here that made so many hesitate involvement.

Well, this leads to the great quote from John Nance Garner

The vice presidency isn't worth a a bucket of warm piss

Peter wrote: "Well, this leads to the great quote from John Nance Garner

The vice presidency isn't worth a a bucket of warm piss
"

Exactly, no one really wanted it and many times, state politicians hoisted a rival into that spot just to get rid of him.

Even then the VP still was useful to balance a ticket geographically or politically.

Tomerobber wrote: "I found it interesting the Cooper brings in more background info about the foot dragging of the US to jump in with the allies . . . I hadn't heard much about the issue of Irish independence from GB..."

Read my mind, Tomerobber, I am going to add an entry about this today!

It really show the influence of Irish Americans had in this country right up to the present. It created strong links.

Bryan wrote: "Tomerobber wrote: "I found it interesting the Cooper brings in more background info about the foot dragging of the US to jump in with the allies . . . I hadn't heard much about the issue of Irish i..."

Ahhh Bryan, I can always trust you to fill in the gaps of my knowledge . . . thanks so much!!

No problem, glad to help.

Going back to the "kept us out of the war" slogan, Cooper really illustrates how Wilson played up the domestic side of his achievement. All we remember from the history books is that slogan, but it is not the whole story.

The scheme to get Hughes into office as quickly as possible if Wilson lost shows such concern for the country at a time of peril that by this one act alone, if Wilson had of lost, would have cemented Wilson as a true American hero for future generation.
I also keep seeing a familiar name Bernard Baruch popping up from time to time. Not much written about this man. If anyone knows of any good books about him I would appreciate you pointing me towards them.

on an unrelated note, you can buy a Wilson ornament at whitehouseholidays.com, which is the 2013 official White house ornament.

Clayton wrote: "The scheme to get Hughes into office as quickly as possible if Wilson lost shows such concern for the country at a time of peril that by this one act alone, if Wilson had of lost, would have cement..."

Thanks Clayton, I don't know another deal quite like this one. It is pretty selfless.

For more on Baruch, go to the glossary and I found some books for you:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

You will need to click on newest or go to the last page to find it.

Theresa wrote: "on an unrelated note, you can buy a Wilson ornament at whitehouseholidays.com, which is the 2013 official White house ornament."

Interesting, well, he is pretty popular president. Thanks, Theresa.

Clayton wrote: "The scheme to get Hughes into office as quickly as possible if Wilson lost shows such concern for the country at a time of peril that by this one act alone, if Wilson had of lost, would have cement..."

This is not a great book, and focuses more on his financial wizardry than his political acumen, but if memory serves, its okay:

by James Grant (no photo)

Indeed, G, I did include it in my glossary entry. There are a few more out there. I haven't read anything about him, but he looks like an interesting fellow.

Do you get the impression that if the Republicans fielded a stronger candidate, Wilson would not have won re-election?

Good point Chistopher. Hughes survived the GOP rubble due to being from the outside. If he wasn't so rusty, who knows?

He might have won if he ran in the 19th century.

Make a solid front porch campaign, too. Wilson even did that.

I had not realized before reading this book and in particular this chapter what a pacifist W.J. Bryan was. Also, It's fascinating that he and Roosevelt -- though both previously disenchanted -- jumped back into their respective party's campaigns.

So true, Sherry, Bryan really rallied behind Wilson multiple times. I guess party is thicker than policy.

Do you think the Republican's argument that Wilson was legislating to a particular class had any weight?

You do see Wilson moving closer to labor. The Adamson Act averted a railway strike and labor helped Wilson win the election.

Bryan wrote: "Do you think the Republican's argument that Wilson was legislating to a particular class had any weight?

You do see Wilson moving closer to labor. The Adamson Act averted a railway strike and labo..."

I'm sure it dissuaded people who were scared of any kind of collective bargaining. That's always been the most effective tool of the poor and disenfranchised. It seems to me he was more legislating to keep the rich and entitled from gaining too much control. The Princeton experience was a deep teacher it seems.

Thanks Sherry, I like how looked at in a way of the rich being too much control. I think there is also a desire in Wilson to connect union and management to create more prosperity across the board.

Bryan wrote: "He might have won if he ran in the 19th century."

Like so many things in life, timing may not be "everything", but it's certainly a big factor.

Indeed, Mark, timing is huge.

I know lots of people think the office of Vice President is useless and for the most part they are correct in their assumption. It is mostly ceremonial by todays standards except when there is a tie vote in the Senate or we have a President assassinated or forced to resign. (The study of how & why this became so is fascinating. When the two party system started making the Vice President just what it is today. Look at the early Vice Presidents and the power they had.)The replacement of the President by the Vice President occurred several times during the 20th century with major consequences for the country. If a President is willing to share the power of office the Vice President can be of enormous help to him. What role the Vice President serves is largely hidden from the public eye. I just wonder how much Wilson ever relied upon his for council.
I was also surprised to read that very little if anything was made of Wilson's wife's death and his subsequent relationships with women after her death. In this day and age you would not be able to shut the press up about what he was and was not doing. I guess my question is was the news media that much more tolerant back then or did the power of the government have enough sway to keep this sort of thing out of the news.
I hope I have not rambled too much but the office of Vice President has been short changed to much in recent times.

It has, Clayton. Today, the VP takes on an important role for the president, everything from handling legislation to full-fledged initiatives.

I don't get the impression Marshall really talked with Wilson much at all, at least he was not in the inner circle.

Edith sure was. Different times, indeed.

It is interesting to see her attempts to push House away from Wilson.

Theresa wrote: "I'm surprised there was such a large gap between election day and inauguration day. four months is an incredibly long time. I suppose it was meant to give the incoming president time to get his aff..."

I too was impressed with the resignation plan. I had no idea -- and evidently at the time neither did pubic or many people at all. I think this shows us a lot about Wilson's character. One may not agree with all of his policies -- but I have been very impressed with Wilson as the man.

He does seem to have a strong work ethic and really wants what is best for country.

I must say that I found some of Wilson's thoughts and actions not particularly agreeable . . . but he did do a few things that I thought were outstanding and the more I read about him I am even more impressed. The League of Nations of course but his appointment of Brandeis to the Supreme Court was another.
Now I have developed an interest in wanting to know more about all of the justices as well . . . I've ordered a couple of books from B&N to persue that interest.

I forgot that Brandeis was a difficult appointment since he became such a pillar on the bench.

Clayton wrote: "The scheme to get Hughes into office as quickly as possible if Wilson lost shows such concern for the country at a time of peril that by this one act alone, if Wilson had of lost, would have cement..."

I went back and listened to this part again . . . House's idea for succession if anything happened to him was really interesting . . . too bad Wilson gave the only copy to Lansing and it was never known until many years later . . . it could have been put into play after he had his stroke and avoided that gap in leadership . . .

So true.

I will be giving this work on Wilson a five star review not only for its content so far but also for forcing me into looking up so many words that I did know the meaning of. I thought my vocabulary was pretty good till now. I am not being critical here. I love it when a author makes me stop and look up new words.

Yes, he is a good author and you can tell it was written for the academic and serious reader of history but is very unpretentious at the same time making it readable and conversational - in other words - easy to understand the ideas.

Clayton wrote: "I know lots of people think the office of Vice President is useless and for the most part they are correct in their assumption. It is mostly ceremonial by todays standards except when there is a ti..."

So as a comment on the remarks of of Clayton, Peter, Bryan and Tomerobber I am thinking that the VP choice since after the founding fathers seems to have been a political expediency for winning choice while, in the beginning, especially before the parties came to rule, the choice was for the best governing. At least it certainly seems that way with Washington and Adams as the first round.

Clayton wrote: "I will be giving this work on Wilson a five star review not only for its content so far but also for forcing me into looking up so many words that I did know the meaning of. I thought my vocabulary..."

And I've learned so much about the US Presidency and the workings of Congress too.

Vince wrote: "Clayton wrote: "I know lots of people think the office of Vice President is useless and for the most part they are correct in their assumption. It is mostly ceremonial by todays standards except wh..."

I get a sense of that too, Vince. Also, we have to consider the lack of a 12th amendment. When you were voting before 1800, you were choosing someone to actually govern, because the second place finisher was the VP.

Kathy wrote: "Clayton wrote: "I will be giving this work on Wilson a five star review not only for its content so far but also for forcing me into looking up so many words that I did know the meaning of. I thoug..."

Glad you are learning, Kathy. Cooper does a good job in linking what Wilson was doing with Congress.