The Baseball Book Club discussion

Hey Mike we can talk general current baseball over here on this thread.

Ok Mike, make your case for Munson as a hall of famer.

OK, you asked for it. On March 18 of 2012, I wrote a blog called," CATCH THIS". I am very clear on how out of the 16 catchers in the hall, the Ray Schalks,Rick Ferrell`s, Roger Bresnahan`s,Ernie Lombardi`s don`t belong. Take a look at Munson next to Gabby Hartnett.Untimely death aside, he was a rookie of the year and an MVP. I say he belongs in the top 8 or 9 catchers. He might not have quite been Fisk or Carter,but RAY SCHALK? PLEASE.
Mike Linn

I asked you because I read the blog and while I don't agree it seems like most people do. As far as the catchers you mentioned I agree they probably shouldn't be in either. I've read many stories about the old voting ways of the veterans committee and it seems like if you were An Irish New York Giant you got in.

A lot of those New York Giants were the result of Frankie Frisch being on the vets committee and voting in his teammates. Travis Jackson, Ross Youngs, Freddie Lindstrom. If you are trying to get Thurman Munson in the HOF you can't compare him to HOFers that don't belong in there because clearly they don't belong in there. You need to compare him to the Fisks and the Carters, and the Cochranes to show that he matches up and deserves it.

I agree. Personally I don't think he belongs. He was already declining at the time of his death. He knees were shot and I remember them trying to work him out at first and the outfield. If he played another season his slugging would be under 4.

Frisch also got some 1930`s Cardinals in too . Jesse Haines and Chick Hafey!I guess Munson gets close but wasn`t better than the bottom of the catching class. I think he`s a Hartnett clone, but probably falls short of Fisk and Carter. Eleven years wasn`t enough, and he seemed to be on a downward at the age of 32 when he died. I still think he was damn good for a tough position. I fought for Ron Santo and Gil Hodges for years too. The old east coast guys says good night....
Mike Linn

<----- is the guy I push for the HOF who is not in there. five seasons with 30+ wins three more with 20+, 284 career wins, and the only no-hitter in the American Association. Tony Mullane.

It's a tough call on some guys. When Reggie Jackson came out and said Phil Neikro, Jim Rice and a few others didn't belong I started thinking about it. When you look at Phil's career year by year it really doesn't wow you. Rice on the other hand was incredible for a stretch but you'd think his totals should have been higher.

Good morning,
Just to finish a thought from last night, they`ve been playing this game for like 150 years, I think if you`re the 10th best catcher ever , you deserve to be in. What 2nd baseman is Mazeroski better than, Evers, Cupid Childs? Give me the damn list and a broom and let`s clean out the trash! Good coffee.
I grabbed a copy of Bill James`s "WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE HALL OF FAME" from my shelves. I don`t always agree with him, but he`s got some interesting thoughts....
We can do them one by one, I got time, I hope
Mike Linn

Different era and positions...but Micheal's comment about 11 years not being enough made me think about Kirby Puckett. As much as I loved his play and of my Twins bias that shows..but did he deserve it? Not to mention that if he got in, why didn't Mattingly with similar numbers and he was the face of his team as much as Puckett?

That one home run went a long way for Maz. I think some people look at him as an Ozzie Smith, Brooks Robinson type of fielder. Tinker, Evers, and to a lesser degree Chance are in only because their names sounded good in a poem. How do you feel about Don Drysdale. I always felt he was attached to Koufax.

I think that each one of these guys should be dealt with individually. Jackie Robinson only played 10 years,anyone want to keep him out? I don`t have a Puckett problem. There was even a guy who`s in that died and only played 9 years. Addie Joss. I just think that even eras can be discussed.You were either the best,or not.
Mike Linn.

Lance wrote: "Different era and positions...but Micheal's comment about 11 years not being enough made me think about Kirby Puckett. As much as I loved his play and of my Twins bias that shows..but did he deser..."
Bill James says if Drysdale is in, so should Milt Pappas.Not really. James has this point system that I think is just made up to sell books.As for the Cubs poem, Steinfeldt should be in instead of the other 3, but his name didn`t rhyme with anything!
Mike Linn

Michael wrote: "Good morning,
Just to finish a thought from last night, they`ve been playing this game for like 150 years, I think if you`re the 10th best catcher ever , you deserve to be in. What 2nd basem..."
As for Donnie baseball, 6 great seasons are just not enough,you can see right where he hurt his back in the record book.All that extra base power was gone..
Mike Linn

Mattingly got injured, but he came back and still had some productive years. He just wasn't the same player anymore. Kirby was still on top of his game when his career suddenly ended. I like looking at careers year by year not just the bottom line. Don was a hall of fame player for a few years, and in my opinion Kirby was one for his whole career. I've seen a lot of number crunchers saying Munson was so much better then Fisk and some others but I think he wouldn't look as good if he played a few more years. I thought he was really good but I guess Bench was the standard then.

One big thing that Puckett had over Mattingly is two World Championships vs. zero post season at bats. Normally I hate comparing titles because ending up on the right team is many time just luck on the draw, like Don Baylor in the late 80s. However, in this case like you said we are talking about team leaders who are the face of the franchise. These are the guys who get you to the World Series or they don't. Jump on my back guy - Puck

I still think that if you were like the 10th best catcher ever, you should at least be considered. Put Gil Hodges side by side with Tony Perez, my Dodgerness aside,what do you see? Almost looks like the same guy.
As for catchers, Piazza and Pudge are next up.
Mike Linn

Zinnbeck wrote: "One big thing that Puckett had over Mattingly is two World Championships vs. zero post season at bats. Normally I hate comparing titles because ending up on the right team is many time just luck ..."
And that`s the Drysdale kind of argument, Cy Young ,8 all star games, and you need more than just a Koufax to bolster any staff to get to those 4 world series
Mike Linn

Milt Pappas, the only man to win 200 games without a 20 win season. Someone asked Jim Kaat about his possible enshrinement and he said it best. The Hall of Fame is for the all time greats and I was an all time good. Robin Roberts is an interesting case. From 1950-1955 he was the best pitcher in the Majors winning 20 or more all six seasons with a high of 28 in 1952, which was 10 more wins then the runner up that season. Getting screwed out the MVP award. Ok so far a sure fire hall of famer. In 56 he's 19-18. The next 5 years he has one winning season finishing out with his release in 1961after going 1-10 . Maybe the bad Teams he pitched for finally caught up with him. Then the Orioles pick him up in 62 and he gives them 4 solid between 10 and 14 win seasons. He ended up with 286 wins but it took a few years to get elected. On a side note the Yankees brought him to camp in 62 and he threw well enough that Mantle thought he should make the club, but they decided to go with youth. That probably cost him 300 wins plus the World Series exposure would have helped. Anyway he's in but he was only really great for 6 years or so.

Drysdale's 13-16 record in 66 didn't help Koufax that much.

Best argument for Drysdale would be that he blew his arm out in 69 when he was only 32 and didn't get those add to your numbers years in. Even when they won in 63 he was 19-17,

Robin Roberts led the league 5 times in complete games and 6 times in games started. He led the league in WHIP once, led the league in innings pitched 5 times,wins 4 times. and 6 times he was in the top 10 for MVP(as a pitcher!)> I think there is little doubt that he belongs

So , Jim Kaat who`s also in our deserving discussion, said it best - so who does the actual deciding between great and very good.Is it the quality of the players that just don`t measure up,or the people doing the measuring?
Mike Linn

Harold wrote: "He led the league 5 times in complete games and 6 times in games started. He led the league in WHIP once, led the league in innings pitched 5 times,wins 4 times. and 6 times he was in the top 10 fo..."
So the number of wins,doesn`t always get you in.Ask Kaat and Tommy John and even Bert Blyleven who waited an eternity. Is Andy Petitte, roids aside a HOFer? Mike Mussina, Luis Tiant? The arguments are endless which is the beauty of it all for me.
Mike Linn
I liked the Tony Mullane info a lot,especially with some of the stiffs that are in

Who is Tony Mullane. Frankly, I think the standards of the HOF have been watered down. There are a lot of guys in out of sentiment and character rather than pure numbers. For me, it should be limited to guys that dominated the sport for a decade or more to the exclusion of all others. Maybe a dozen or so players per decade but I realize I am in the minority

Hey Harold, I knew once Roberts was mentioned I'd hear from you. I agree Roberts should be in. A lot of guys have big numbers , I just think its how they got them that gets them in. Tommy John wasn't a great pitcher. He was a numbers collector. Just for fun I was looking at Tommy's career and he did have that 4 yea stretch where he was really good from 77-80. So then I realized that in his other 22 seasons he was 196-195.

Waay watered down,but the greats are fewer and further between now. Just look at the quality of the stars originally enshrined. Taking nothing away from the Tony Gwynn`s etc, the game has changed . There are no more 300 winners,or .340 lifetime averages,at least not as many. But we know all the whys. I think that those numbers,so fixed in our heads for so long(300 wins,500 homers) have been lowered. We`ll get to steroids eventually
Mike Linn

Mike wrote: "Hey Harold, I knew once Roberts was mentioned I'd hear from you. I agree Roberts should be in. A lot of guys have big numbers , I just think its how they got them that gets them in. Tommy John wasn..."

I also felt Don Sutton was overrated and not worthy of the HOF but I haven't checked his stats. I think he won 20 games only once but he had longevity.

I just took a peek at Sutton.324 wins is hard to get around with one 20 win season.
Mike Linn

I know but he never dominated the game. He won 1 ERA title and never a Cy Young. To me that's what the HOF should be about: not just a good consistent career or longevity

Except that the four of us don`t do the voting. If we did, the 200 plus players in the hall today would be HALF that total and people would scream like they did this year when the writers sent a very specific message.
Mike Linn

I agree-it has become an entitlement.

Harold wrote: "I know but he never dominated the game. He won 1 ERA title and never a Cy Young. To me that's what the HOF should be about: not just a good consistent career or longevity"

You just about perfectly described Nolan Ryan and then kicked him out of the HOF. Ryan had 2 ERA titles and no CY awards.

I realize that but he had a very long career and that accounts for his wins and strikeouts. I'd take bob feller any day over him.
And my HOF would look a lot different. As much as I loved Ashburn, he wouldn't be in it. Nor would Snider, or Pee Wee and a lot of other guys too numerous to count

Come on Ashburn. Why the hall not

But somebody has to be in it! The eras dictated who got in and who didn`t .It`s finally the same principle that got Rice in. He had a 10 year span better than anyone else at the time. If you`re gonna throw out Pee Wee, don`t forget to oust Rizzuto.He couldn`t carry Reese`s jock! I feel better now that I got that out. We could go position by position and toss a lot of
guys, just saying
Mike Linn

Harold, I loved the Duke and thought 11 years, what are they nuts, but Ashburn in many ways was better than Snider, Ashburn got snubbed because he was a typical leadoff guy in a power position.
Mike Linn
P.S. Get Zinnbeck off the trivia thread.I`m not jumping back and forth. Was it just you 3 before I showed up?

Mike wrote: "Come on Ashburn. Why the hall not"

Because in my HOF, only the players that dominated the game during their era would get in. MY HOF would have about 50 players.
I loved Whitey, but he had no power, was not an RBI guy, had a weak throwing arm, and stole a moderate amount of bases.(I realize they didn't steal that much in the 50's.

Michael wrote: "But somebody has to be in it! The eras dictated who got in and who didn`t .It`s finally the same principle that got Rice in. He had a 10 year span better than anyone else at the time. If you`re gon..."

I agree that Rizzuto shouldn't get in either, or andre Dawson , or rice, or enos slaughter etc under my HOF standards

No Andre Dawson? Now that is crossing the line.

New follower. Baseball fan--40+ years. Will start to add things as time allows. Your comments are interesting and insightful. David

Ha ha! And, I met him at Cooperstown the October after he was inducted and spoke with him, got his autograph, and listened to an hour long discussion with him at the HOF. Nor would Ron Santo be in despite the fact that he was dominant at 3rd for his era. If I'm being honest, I don't know if I would have Sandy Koufax in the HOF either and I realize that is heresy.

You know that you have to let someone in the hall of fame besides Babe Ruth or the hall is going to die off from a lack of activity and interest. Even letting Jesse Haines in is a better alternative then having it die.

All of the 1934 inductees would be in as well as the usual greats like Williams, Musial, Mays, Aaron, F.Robinson, Seaver, Carlton. Lefty Grove,Spahn,etc. The HOF would still have plenty of players but only the crème de la crème.

Tom Seaver was elected just over 20 years ago in 1992. That is a long time without an induction. Anyone more recent on your HOF list?

Greg Maddox will be on the list as will Jeff Kent, Randy Johnson.
Mike Schmidt, George Brett,Yount(close), Boggs, Gwynn, Ricky Henderson,Alomar,Larkin

Mike Piazza, Biggio,

Ashburn still holds some fielding records, won two batting titles, just missed a third. He had the most hits in the decade of the 1950s. He led the league in hits 3 times, triples twice, stolen bases once, walks and on base percentage four times each. His only mistake was retiring too early at age 35. He had 2574 hits and said he probably should have played a few more years. Two more years could have got him to 2800. His lifetime average is .308 and he hit .306 in his last season with the mets. Who knows he might have made a run at 3000,but he couldn't bring himself to come back to a team that just lost 120 games. His career ended on a triple play and he later told a story that after being named MVP of the 62 Mets they gave him a sailboat and it sank.

Piazza, always thought steroids. There's something about the way Piazza and Bagwell hit the ball. There'd swing at stuff over their head and just clip the ball and it's flying out of the park