Speaker Geeks! discussion

(Disclaimer: I realize that there is an "Abortion" topic. This is just a different branch of the discussion.)

How do you feel about it? Since in the "Abortion" topic, there seemed to be a disagreement about when one becomes human. Many members who disagreed that one becomes human at conception said that a newly conceived embryo is simply a mass of cells. However, by the latter part of pregnancy, I believe that most people will agree that the fetus is a person. Do you have a different opinion on late-term abortion than early-term?

First of all, I don't think it is the right of anybody but the mother to judger her decision if she decides to have an abortion if she has taken her time and thought about it. In my opinion, whether or not an abortion is justified depends solely on the circumstances the mother/parents of the baby are in. If you get pregnant and after 8 months you decide that naah, you don't really want the baby, that's not responsible behaviour. You could have thought about that earlier.
But I can think of a lot of reasons why someone would have an abortion that late. One thing I always think about are physical and mental handicaps. If I got pregnant and at some point found out that my child was going to have a severe sickness of some sort, I honestly don't think I'd keep the child. Not because I was opposed to taking care of a child that's not 'perfect' or whatever, but because I don't think I could handle it. Psychologically, I mean. I don't think I would be able to carry the 'weight' that having an impaired child would put on you and therefore wouldn't be able to guarantee the child a good life..

Alex wrote: "First of all, I don't think it is the right of anybody but the mother to judger her decision if she decides to have an abortion if she has taken her time and thought about it. In my opinion, whethe..."

I am sorry but I don't agree with you about the "weight" of carrying an handicapped. Just because a baby is physically challengened it should not be the reason for abortion. Infact abortion is nothing but murder in my eyes. One question I ask to those who think carrying an handicap will be burden.... Imagine you have a healthy baby and within one or two year something happens and your child becomes physically or mentally challengened will you abandon that child ? Or will you just kill that baby ? Because the "weight " cannot be handled ?

Be it late term or early abortion is crime in my eyes, many might justify it but I feel it is not right.

I know abortion isn't right and would never get one. I believe it is bad to get one at all, but I somewhat think later on is worse. When you are 8 months pregnant, chances are very high that if that child was born then, it would live. So aborting your child at 8 months pregnant is just like killing a baby born after 7 months in the womb then killed a 1 month later. What is the difference between the two minus the location and a birth paper?

I thought you couldn't get an abortion after a certain point in your pregnancy though. Am I mistaken?

Let me put it this way, there are always ways. I don't know about the situation in the states or anywhere else in the world, but at least in Germany, you can always get an abortion if the child endangers your physical or mental health. Of course you have to go through talks with specialists who will determin whether your health is indeed 'endangered', but if you really want to abort that child, you will most likely find a way to get the abortion.

@Purvika: I understand your point of view and I actually really envy you for it. I mean, I think it is absolutely great and admirable when parents manage to take care of handicapped children, I just don't think I would be able to do it and I many people that would consider their 'mental health endangered', to use my earlier words. I can't help the fact that I don't think I'd be capable of handling a handicapped child for a lifetime, it wasn't a decision I made and maybe I'd like it to be different, but I'm not really willing to try it out because that's not fair considering the child's wellfare.
Of course I would not kill my child or anything if it got sick after the birth, but I know I probably wouldn't be able to grant the kid the best life it could get because of my inability to perfectly cope with the situation. Of course I'd try my very best, but see, if I found out about such a thing before the birth, I would rather set an end to it than have the child suffer because I can't handle its handicap.

Alex wrote: "Let me put it this way, there are always ways. I don't know about the situation in the states or anywhere else in the world, but at least in Germany, you can always get an abortion if the child end..."

Sigh ...I understand what you are saying, handling a handicap is very tough and time consuming, and it depends on the person regarding pregnancy... Still sometimes it makes me wonder... If it were we in the womb and our parents decided to get rid of us when they realize we are challenged ( which can be only diagnosed in later stage when the child is fully developed) .... How would we feel...wouldn't we wanna scream pls don't kill us ..pls ... Am sorry I just get emo on this matter... U see... Its been just a month or more that I have entered same situation... But my father never reget a single day... I do...but not him... So... I know in my life ...I will never do such a thing with anyone...

No I do not agree with late term abortion, the way it s carried out, it is very graphic so I won't force you to read it (view spoiler)[ chopping up the feotus then using a vacuum suck out the pieces (hide spoiler)]. The only chance I would think a late term abortion appropriate was if it would endanger the mother's life.

Yeah, as said, I totally understand, accept and admire your opinion on this, but if I'm ever going to have a kid, I'll want to make sure to be able to try and give it the best life it could possibly have and I just don't think I could do that with a handicapped child. Of course that's bad, but the question is, would it be better if I got the child anyway, and I think the answer to that is no.
So therefore I am not going to ever judge women who choose to have an abortion because of that. Props to all the people capable of handling such situations though, you're great people! :)

I don't condemn abortion, it's just the late term part. Most women can have tests to see if their child is going to be disabled between the twelve week mark and the fifteenth. This is where they can make the decision and have the abortion if they need. I don't think it right for them to wait until after 24 weeks. Then it is just selfish and they cause the disgusting abortion method. If the disability is caused in late term pregnancy then yes I could agree with the abortion then.

If they can find out before, they should of course do that. I am only referring to people who found out late term!

A man before attempting bungee jumping said: I came into the world because of a broken rubber, don't wanna go because of one!

Abortion in poor countries is different. They are ignorant; all they know is how to breed; while their income being 1$/day. So if accidentally the poor woman conceives, knowing that they are unable to raise a child, they are forced to abort. It's like a man suffering from bone cancer begging you to kill him; it's all about morality but law often doesn't take morality into consideration.
If the conception's timeline has crossed the mature date line (in many countries 5-8 months) then the jurisprudence hails prior to morality. The conviction of those concerned parents is inevitable. I respect that too...End of the day it's homicide.

In India, Before 5-8 months it's legal by the recommendation of hospitals only if; (quoting wiki)

-Women whose physical and/or mental health were endangered by the pregnancy
-Women facing the birth of a potentially handicapped or malformed child
-Rape
-Pregnancies in unmarried girls under the age of eighteen with the consent of a guardian
-Pregnancies in "lunatics" with the consent of a guardian
-Pregnancies that result are a result of failure in sterilization

Which makes sense...

Lia wrote: Wow, talk about an offensive sweeping generalization of entire nations...."

I didn't really mean the whole country. Even if I did...
Most of the citizens make the country; except the extremely rich ones. Why U.S is invading such countries then if the whole country isn't responsible? Do you really believe in generalization?

Anyways,
By ignorant I meant those who manage their lifestyle with 1$/day but they can't make future plans about having a child on not.
^You can read it three more different ways too! It's up to you.

Please quote me next time!

Kaylee wrote: I didn't really mean the whole country. Even if I did...
Most of the citizens make the country; e..."

Seriously?!!
I'd really explain the sound of my statements, and sentiments next time.... didn't know you'll join any other sentences together and accuse me of purloining breads...smh

(Like Luke said, positively, while watching 2 suns:)
It was meant for Lia. She may get it...
And for you; do you really believe in sarcasm?

I'm done here. (:

I think Som was pointing out what is being said of people living in 'poor countries' rather than the 'They're ignorant' sentence being her own opinion. As in "Late-term abortion in poor countries is legal because people believe the inhabitants to be too ignorant/stupid to be able to handle their lives and how many children they are getting" which, you yourself, don't believe, right?

Lia wrote: I don't understand your question about the US.

Now when you said "especially regarding social sciences"; explaining the reason of my rhetoric question about U.S. and drones and NSA etc as 'generalization' attacks is futile (maybe saying about it is uncalled for as it's purely political, sorry!). Point being, one terrorist doesn't make a nation, one person with a right mind doesn't make a nation either. So populated countries (with 70% unfortunately poor and ignorant) with wage 1$/day are usually ignorant about birth control. That was my point.

Okay now I'm confused again :D
So do you personally believe poor countries are generally ignorant about birth control or are you saying that that's what people all over the world generally believe but is, in you opinion not true?

@Kaylee

You jumped right in a discussion and mixed up my sentences and asking me for explanations? That's grand! That reply was for Lia by the way. Again, that reply was for Lia By the way.. Don't know what you have against me (I really don't want to know either) but I haven't got time for this; so ..........Never mind!
Have a nice day.
I'm really done with this topic. Thanks.

I haven't the foggiest what is going on. But I'd say late term would be after the 2oth week definitely most likely after 24th.

A late abortion is wrong in my eyes because by that stage(in fact much earlier than that) the fetus develops a functional nervous-system.

When we are aborting with vacuuming methods especially, I assume the fetus can feel all the pain with limbs etc being pulled out.

Not getting into gory details, where we can't even be sure of how a fetus feels pain, I feel it's inappropriate for the simple reason that we don't have a right to inflict such pain on any being.

I'm fine with the mother making the decision, but after a certain time it becomes dangerous, I think.

I'm not for abortion at any point during a pregnancy, but to be perfectly honest (and frank), late-term abortion sickens me. ESPECIALLY if the baby is old enough to potentially live outside of the womb. It's at nine weeks after conception that the baby is able to feel pain (I'm 90% sure). Late-term abortion methods, such as the vacuuming method, are extremely painful and, in my opinion, completely inhumane. The baby may not have been born yet, but he/she is still a person.

(I didn't mean for that to come off as rude in any way, shape, or form. This is just one of those issues that I feel VERY strongly about.)

I personally don't agree with 'late-term' abortions either BUT if a mother is choosing to abort so late into her pregnancy, more often that not, it is less often because she suddenly changed her mind but more so because it could cause some very serious damage to her health or there is something very serious relating to the child's health.

For example, what if the child was diagnosed with a very serious illness and would not live for more than a few hours and that is only if it had not already died while still in the womb? Some would go ahead and give birth to the baby but many other women would rather abort the baby and save the child the pain of having to go through something like that.

H99 wrote: "Shweta wrote: "I personally don't agree with 'late-term' abortions either BUT if a mother is choosing to abort so late into her pregnancy, more often that not, it is less often because she suddenly..."

Yes and I think that is when I get upset when I see all these laws being passed that inable women to get 'late term' abortions. A woman deciding to abort her child should ultimately be her decision.

Although I will admit that there are some women who decide late into their pregnancy that they no longer want the child and try to abort - I do not agree with that at all. If you are mature enough to have sex then you should be mature enough to give birth to the child you conceived. But there are exceptions and other situations that have to be considered because it is not fair in the slightest in my opinion, to take that decision away from a mother.

Shweta wrote: "I personally don't agree with 'late-term' abortions either BUT if a mother is choosing to abort so late into her pregnancy, more often that not, it is less often because she suddenly changed her mi..."

I agree with you on the bit about how if it endangers the child or the mother, yes the child probably should be aborted. But if you're almost nine months there, I just think there are too many risks there.

Lo wrote: "Shweta wrote: "I personally don't agree with 'late-term' abortions either BUT if a mother is choosing to abort so late into her pregnancy, more often that not, it is less often because she suddenly..."

Risks for who? Because if you are talking about risks for the mother, if the child is sick, very often, it is going to be much more risky for the mother to have the child than to abort it, despite it being 9 months along.

Shweta wrote: "Lo wrote: "Shweta wrote: "I personally don't agree with 'late-term' abortions either BUT if a mother is choosing to abort so late into her pregnancy, more often that not, it is less often because s..."

Well, I sort of meant both the child and the mother, in a case where the woman having the child is not dangerous.

Found this. Just thought it was interesting (I wasn't very informed on this kind of stuff previously): http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF13F23.pdf

Lo wrote: "Shweta wrote: "Lo wrote: "Shweta wrote: "I personally don't agree with 'late-term' abortions either BUT if a mother is choosing to abort so late into her pregnancy, more often that not, it is less ..."

Oh wow. Yes that is most definitely interesting and I didn't have much knowledge on that either. And I find it quite shocking to be honest.

I mean, part of the reasons for a late abortion, according to the link you posted, was as a result of lack of knowledge. They did not know they were pregnant, did not know how there is a certain time period that the abortion should be performed within and even did not know that getting an an abortion was an option.

I think the mother should be educated relatively well on not only sex and pregnancy but the concept of abortions and 'late abortions' and then the decision should be left up to the mother. In the end, it is her body and she should have the right to decide what to do when pregnant.

I don't want to get involved here but consider this:
A mother is told her child has a illness resulting in death before age three 95% of the time. (think severe genetic malfunction or that disease where you can't have a certain protein) Is it wrong to get a late term abortion then? I don't think so. You're saving you and the child a LOT of pain.

Yeah I understand.

The other thing is that making (late term) abortion legal does not mean a person has to get one.

I don't think this should even be debate, though...

Abortion in itself isn't uh, the best concept. But late-term? When the baby is going to be born soon? That is just cruel and it IS a crime. Should be considered one. I can understand some reasons of why people would opt for abortion in the beginning, if the reasons are justified. But this is not moral in any standpoint. Maybe it's "logical", but we are humans! We should not allow this.

I am completely and fully against abortion late term or early on. I dont care when it is its completely immoral. Lets say something happens and somebody causes a woman to lose her baby or something like that, they go to jail. But people go and WILLINGLY murder (Yup its murder dont try to denie it) their baby and its completely legal, like WTH thats completely horrible and one of the MAJOR reasons im against this is because one of my very dear best friends might not be here if this persons birth mother went with abortion and the world would be a terrible place without this person. Who gives you the right to destroy a life? An innocent life and an entire future? What if the child you just KILLED wouldve discovered the cure for cancer? way to go you.

Okay let me give you a little scenario lets say a woman gets raped and she's pregnant so when she looks at her baby after giving birth to her/him she's always reminded of the scum who raped her and hates the child even though she really dosen't mean to but she can't help hating her/him because she reminds her of that man so much so which think is better an unloved and unwanted child who will grow up without a father and a mother who hates him/her or no child at all so that after some therapy (most likely if she can afford it) she can move on with her life and leave this all behind you tell me which is better.

One word for you my friend ADOPTION there is no GODDAM need to murder an innocent person!!!!!!!!

Oh so your in support of depression how and unloved child, good to know.

Dont you frickin bring depression into this, an adopted child can have a PERFECTLY happy life idc what the hell anybody says. And just so you know John, i am fully against depression, been fighting it for years almost commited suicide thank you very much. And think of what that child could have accomplished in this world and how you want to just take that away and MURDER that child. I see youre for murder of innocents, good to know.

John wrote: "Okay let me give you a little scenario lets say a woman gets raped and she's pregnant so when she looks at her baby after giving birth to her/him she's always reminded of the scum who raped her and..."

I totally agree. :)

Hope and love are beautiful things wrote: "One word for you my friend ADOPTION there is no GODDAM need to murder an innocent person!!!!!!!!"

Adoption does not rid a mother of the effects of pregnancy that she never asked for. The need for support runs deeper than just caring for a child. It entails the mother's care as well, something she doesn't get in these situations.

✿.Ⓐⓟⓞⓞⓡⓥⓐ.✿ wrote: "John wrote: "Okay let me give you a little scenario lets say a woman gets raped and she's pregnant so when she looks at her baby after giving birth to her/him she's always reminded of the scum who ..."

SERIOUSLY?!?!??!?!?!?!??! So you wanna just murder an innocent baby and rob the world of whatever that child couldve accomplished? Youre for killing someone who has NO WAY AT ALL to protect themselves? Stand up for themselvs?

Don't lecture me about depression or attempting suicide I've had and tried both and you know what instead of thinking that child might've done good what happened if that child ended up killing a few people what then.

✿.Ⓐⓟⓞⓞⓡⓥⓐ.✿ wrote: "Hope and love are beautiful things wrote: "One word for you my friend ADOPTION there is no GODDAM need to murder an innocent person!!!!!!!!"

Adoption does not rid a mother of the effects of pregna..."

You know if she didnt want to have a child why did she have sex? And if she was raped im sorry but that still doesnt give you the right to end that life just becuase you didnt want it in the first place

John wrote: "Don't lecture me about depression or attempting suicide I've had and tried both and you know what instead of thinking that child might've done good what happened if that child ended up killing a fe..."

Well then dont bring it up. Cuz you dont know what ive gone through so shut up about it. And maybe they will, but how the hell do you know if they will or not? You dont.

Neither do you.

Hope and love are beautiful things wrote: "✿.Ⓐⓟⓞⓞⓡⓥⓐ.✿ wrote: "Hope and love are beautiful things wrote: "One word for you my friend ADOPTION there is no GODDAM need to murder an innocent person!!!!!!!!"

Adoption does not rid a mother of t..."

That's the most pathetic argument I've ever heard. What the hell...
If she was raped, why does the mother have to take all the responsibility? The father walks out with no consequences. By law, a woman or man has the right over his or her own body. A baby is scientifically a parasite before it is born. A beautiful thing, don't get me wrong, but still feeding off of its mother. She therefore has the moral right to terminate the being inside her to preserve her own well being or happiness. John is completely correct.

Yeah but that doesnt give you the right to kill them just because theres A CHANCE that they could turn out bad

Hope and love are beautiful things wrote: "Yeah but that doesnt give you the right to kill them just because theres A CHANCE that they could turn out bad"

No, but the argument here is that you cannot base abortion off of the fact that the baby "might have cured cancer", as you say. Hypothetical arguments are irrelevant, and that works against you as you were the person to bring it up.

Thank you Apoorva

John wrote: "Thank you Apoorva"

Yup :)

H99 wrote: "Hope and love are beautiful things wrote: "One word for you my friend ADOPTION there is no GODDAM need to murder an innocent person!!!!!!!!"

Shouldn't you focus on getting that child adopted? Ther..."

Exactly. Adoption isn't a win all situation, as most orphans remain in foster care or orphanages until they are old enough to fend for themselves. Wonderful life, huh?

You know what? Im done with this. Im going to go talk to people who arent Pro child murder. You people disgust me.