21st Century Literature discussion

Oh, I do like that!

How right she is.

Sophia wrote: "How right she is."

Now, if one could only know. :-0 As Mark Twain is infamously cited: "Don't read good books. There isn't time for that. Read only the best." (probably paraphrased)

The fun part is determining "best" for any given day and situation and mood and .....!

Couldn't agree more.

Although sometimes you need to make allowances for parts when the whole shows promise. Infinite Jest was tough at times, but remains my favourite ever book and I'm very glad I didn't skip bits or give up.

"There are two types of patriotism, although sometimes the two are mingled in the same breast. The first kind one might call nationalism; nationalists believe that all other countries are inferior in every respect and that one would do them a favour by dominating them. Other countries are always in the wrong, they are less free, less civilized, are less glorious in battle, are perfidious, prone to falling for insane and alien ideologies which no reasonable person could believe, are irreligious and abnormal. Such patriots are the most common variety, and their patriotism is the most contemptible thing on earth.

The second type of patriot is best described by returning to the example of General Fuerte. General Fuerte did not believe in ‘my country, right or wrong’; on the contrary, he loved his land despite the faults that he could so clearly see and that he labored to correct. It was his frequently stated opinion that anyone who supported his country when it was so obviously in the wrong, or who failed to see its faults, was the worst kind of traitor. Whereas the first kind of patriot really glories in his own irrationality and not in his country, General Carlo Maria Fuerte loved his country as a son loves his mother or a brother his sister."

--Louis de Bernieres, 'The War for Don Emmanuel's Nether Parts'

"All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed."

― Richard Adams, Watership Down

Terry wrote: ""All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning...."

I love this quote! It never fails to bring a tear (or two) to my eye.

Apropos of the Dorris Lessing quote from Julia, above, I am very glad I first read Watership Down when I was 12, and everything in books was new and exciting and burned so bright.

I watched the (amazing) BBC adaptation many many times when I was young. Much of it was word for word. I only read the book later, but I have the above speech by heart.

Terry wrote: "I watched the (amazing) BBC adaptation many many times when I was young. Much of it was word for word. I only read the book later, but I have the above speech by heart."

Is that the animated film with John Hurt (which I also loved), or was there another adaptation as well?

John Hurt as Hazel, Richard Briers as Fiver, Art Garfunkel's Bright Eyes on the soundtrack...

Terry wrote: "John Hurt as Hazel, Richard Briers as Fiver, Art Garfunkel's Bright Eyes on the soundtrack..."

Yep, that's the one. Man,that's a good movie!

Julia wrote: "Thanks, Sophia--this is from The Shadow of the Wind, the first book in the series "The Cemetery of Forgotten Books" by Carlos Ruiz Zafon. The Angel's Game and The Prisoner of Heaven are the other t..."

The Shadow of the Wind is a great book to quote from and such a good story. Nothing better than a book about books :) Great quote. It really just illustrates the power of escaping into a book and the worlds it opens up.

Is it appropriate to share my "Poker Wisdom of the Ancients" here? Plagiarized from myself-of-the-past:

----------------------------
Poker Wisdom of the Ancients
... and not so ancients.

What do the writers of days gone by have to say about poker? If they never played poker, and may have never heard of it, all the better. Their wisdom is pure.

What did Cicero have to say about poker? Sun Tzu? Shakespeare?

Note that "days gone by" means any time up to and including yesterday.

I will begin:

"You have discovered the changing faces of the random goddess. To others she still veils herself, but to you she has revealed herself to the full. If you are satisfied with her ways, you must accept them and not complain. But if you shudder to think of her unreliability, you must turn away and have nothing more to do with her dangerous games." -Boethius, The_Consolation_of_Philosophy_

"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -Sherlock Holmes, from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's _The_Boscombe_Valley_Mystery_

"People trying to do something of which they are incapable should always be a lesson to us." -Idries Shah, _Wisdom_of_the_Idiots_

"A real gentleman should not show excitement even when he loses his whole fortune. Money ought to be so much below his gentlemanly dignity as to be scarcely worth noticing." - Fyodor Dostoevsky, _The_Gambler_

The Writing Life" by Annie Dillard

"Why are we reading, if not in hope of beauty laid bare, life heightened, and its deeper mystery probed? Why are we reading if not in the hope that the writer will magnify and dramatize our days, will illuminate and inspire us with wisdom, courage, and the possibility of meaningfulness, and will press upon our minds the deepest mysteries, so that we may feel again their majesty and power? What do we ever know that is higher than that power which, from time to time, seizes our lives and reveals us startlingly to ourselves as creatures set down here bewildered? Why does death catch us by surprise, and why love? We still and always want waking. We should amass half-dressed in long lines like tribesmen and shake gourds at each other, to wake up; instead we watch television and miss the show."

I like the conclusion that the above quote reaches.

Meanwhile, in a more cynical spirit, here's what Ysengrimus has to say about the poor man:

"As for the wretch who doesn't get a taste of any good things, he doesn't seek any, so let him live without wealth, let him live without respect. Let no one love such a man--let no one even deign to hate him!"

Oh my, that really IS cynical! I prefer Dostoyevsky's quote: :-)


“Love all God's creation, the whole and every grain of sand of it. Love every leaf, every ray of God's light. Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love.”
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

Julia wrote: "Oh my, that really IS cynical! I prefer Dostoyevsky's quote: :-)


“Love all God's creation, the whole and every grain of sand of it. Love every leaf, every ray of God's light. Love the animals, lo..."

Love Dostoyevsky. Great novelist. I just need an entire summer to really enjoy his works. The Brothers Karamazov is truly an epic.

This quote really epitomizes his insight and his ideas into human nature and the world.

I agree, Franky. When I took a group of students to the former Soviet Union, I visited his gravesite, and left flowers there. Of all his works, The Grand Inquisitor is closest to my heart; it's available online at http://www.queensu.ca/religion/rels/u...



Fyodor Dostoevsky’s grave at Tikhvin Cemetery in St. Petersburg

More cynicism: Dostoevsky's optimists are most notable for being surrounded by cruelty and stupidity, and their optimism is generally insupportable--often defeated.

"The more I love humanity in general the less I love man in particular."

Zadignose wrote: "More cynicism: Dostoevsky's optimists are most notable for being surrounded by cruelty and stupidity, and their optimism is generally insupportable--often defeated..."

Only from a purely material standpoint. You can call Myshkin and Alyosha failures if you point out that they failed to significantly change the world around them, but they show the possibility of a spiritual redemption. In this sense, his optimists are Christ-like. And Dostoevsky's cynics (Roskolnikov, Dmitri) do find redemption, which is a pretty optimistic viewpoint.

Great points, Whitney. One of the reasons I love The Grand Inquisitor section of The Brothers Karamazov are these words of Ivan, supposedly the cynic of the brothers. Yet he says this to Alyosha:

“The centripetal force on our planet is still fearfully strong, Alyosha. I have a longing for life, and I go on living in spite of logic. Though I may not believe in the order of the universe, yet I love the sticky little leaves as they open in spring. I love the blue sky, I love some people, whom one loves you know sometimes without knowing why. I love some great deeds done by men, though I’ve long ceased perhaps to have faith in them, yet from old habit one’s heart prizes them....I love the sticky leaves in spring, the blue sky — that’s all it is. It’s not a matter of intellect or logic, it’s loving with one’s inside, with one’s stomach.”

The centrality of love in Dostoyevsky's beliefs is what I find most meaningful. He never shies away from the dark side of human nature--but he is also not defeated by it. The Christs of the world will always be considered fools and will be crucified--but they will not stop loving.

Actually, I felt that Dostoevsky, in some of his writing, promotes faith for the faithless while challenging the faith of the faithful. I.e., he's a challenge regardless of your starting perspective.

Zadignose wrote: "Actually, I felt that Dostoevsky, in some of his writing, promotes faith for the faithless while challenging the faith of the faithful. I.e., he's a challenge regardless of your starting perspective."

I'd say it depends on the faith. He definitley wasn't a fan of Catholicism, which was largely the inspiration for The Grand Inquisitor section of TBK. And he puts very compelling arguments in the mouths of those who question faith, such as Ivan and even Stavroigin, because he's a good enough writer not to set up straw men with opposing views. But, in the end, it's pretty clear that he's a believer in faith and redemption (mainly of the Eastern Orthodox flavor). I'll site Dimitri and Raskolnikov again in support. Plus his own writings on his intent in his novels, in which he makes things pretty clear.

Addendum: on reflection, I guess you could say he challenges people's faith, rather than providing simple, unchallenged assertions.

I agree, Whitney; The Grand Inquisitor is an indictment of the "Church", and too many times that "Church", in whatever form it takes, is mistakenly made a synonym for "religion". I believe Dostoyevsky challenges the human-created "Church", while retaining his faith in the "divine mystery."

The quote I cited in post 16 is reflected in this line, which I find resembles Dostoyevsky's idea:
"In music, in a flower, in a leaf, in an act of kindness--I see what people call God in all these things."
Pablo Casals

Julia wrote: "I agree, Whitney; The Grand Inquisitor is an indictment of the "Church", and too many times that "Church", in whatever form it takes, is mistakenly made a synonym for "religion". I bel..."

I think there's some truth in that. I had a Russian Lit professor who thought the following from The Idiot was the most representative of Doestoevsky's beliefs:

"I came across a poor woman, carrying a child—a baby of some six weeks old. The mother was quite a girl herself. The baby was smiling up at her, for the first time in its life, just at that moment; and while I watched the woman she suddenly crossed herself, oh, so devoutly! 'What is it, my good woman I asked her. (I was never but asking questions then!) Exactly as is a mother's joy when her baby smiles for the first time into her eyes, so is God's joy when one of His children turns and prays to Him for the first time, with all his heart!' This is what that poor woman said to me, almost word for word; and such a deep, refined, truly religious thought it was—a thought in which the whole essence of Christianity was expressed in one flash—that is, the recognition of God as our Father, and of God's joy in men as His own children, which is the chief idea of Christ. She was a simple country-woman—a mother, it's true—and perhaps, who knows, she may have been the wife of the drunken soldier!"

Excellent example, Whitney--and the woman wasn't in a "church", but looking upon the face of her child. I remember the births of my three children, and how I was filled with awe when they opened their eyes. I felt, as Kahlil Gibran says, that they had come "through" me, but didn't "belong" to me. Rather they were part of what I now call the Great Mystery.

That's why Dostoyevsky's vision carries such power for me; he expresses humility in the face of mystery (which he calls God). And our task is to love it all (see post 16).

from Bellman & Black: A Ghost Story by Diane Setterfield

p. 136- William (his wife and three of his children have died)

"The world, the universe, God too, if there was one, were ranged against mankind. From this newly unveiled vantage point he saw that his old good fortune was a cruel joke: encourage a man to think he is lucky all the better to bring him down afterward. He realized his essential smallness, the vanity of his efforts to control his fate. He, William Bellman, master of the mill, was nothing. All these years he had believed in his own power, not once recognizing the presence of the vast rival who could crush him in a day, if it once chose to."

"What is there about the human mind that so resonates with the rest of the universe that we’re able to understand anything about workings of nature on the larger scale? Every scrap of matter and energy in our blood and bones and in the synapses of our thoughts can trace its lineage back to the origin of the universe…. As the Koran puts it, the universe is as close as the veins of our necks. The evolution of the universe goes on not just around us but within us. Our thoughts and feelings, after all, are part of the universe, too, and its story is our story as well."

Timothy Ferris from his film Creation of the Universe
http://www.timothyferris.com/films/#t...