Jane Austen discussion

Meet the Elliot's (and their financial trouble!) causing them to uproot to Bath while a certain relation of a certain someone takes possession of Kellynch Hall! Anne is bound for Uppercross...

I love the way you introduce the chapters Soph :) you give a good summary without giving anything away!

Ahaha! Thank you :) I do try my best!

What a lovely introduction Sophie! I cannot wait to start re-reading!!!

Neither can I!

Can I start? I love the beginning, as Sir Elliot looks at the Baronetcy. Reminds me of how some (many?) people will search on their own names and visit websites over and over.

The beginning is wonderful! His obsession with it is so funny and sums up his character!

It is very fun to read about the vanity of Sir Elliot. But I also feel sorry for Elizabeth... only in the first chapter :) There is a paragraph when we can understand how sad and disappointed she is for not being married yet and how much she suffered because of Mr. Elliot. She knows her chances to be happy are reducing but nobody can see that. It is terrible!

Ah yes, I see it now! It had never really struck me before. I guess she deserves a little sympathy after all!

A little. But not too much ;) but reading it again makes me pity her a little more than before!

Oh, I agree! Just a little bit of sympathy...;P

Another of Austen's interesting couples: Mr. Eliot and Lady Eliot! So much could be said about them.

Mr. Eliot's vanity moderated by Lady Eliot's good sense... Austen brings together people of different, sometimes opposite temperaments and manages to create a believable balance.

I love the introducing chapters, quite engaging from the 1st lines.
Do you think Sir Eliot is a bad father?

I wouldn't waste too much sympathy on Elizabeth. She seems perfectly content being spoiled and coddled by her father and Mrs. Clay.

Here's something to consider. The first time that I saw the 1995 TV version, I had tuned in a few minutes late and since I had never read the book, I wasn't sure who the characters were in that opening drawing room scene. But soon I decided that Elizabeth was Sir Walter's wife! Think about it. In every way but one (we presume) that's how they behave. Sir Walter has the convenience of having a beautiful young woman on his arm and someone to run his house (with Anne in the role of "housekeeper"), and Elizabeth has everything she could want without the bother of a husband's 'demands,' which I have a feeling she wouldn't enjoy anyway.

Perhaps somebody should write fanfic exploring that angle!

On the subject of Anne -- I wrote the following some time ago in response to a reader who said she wasn't finishing the book because she found it too depressing.

I think perhaps you're meant to feel a bit depressed at the beginning, because Anne's life is, well, damn depressing. She has no mother, and her father is a vain, spendthrift dolt. Her older sister is totally self-centered and utterly without affection for Anne. Her younger sister is a whiny hypochondriac who imposes on Anne's time and good nature. Anne is treated as little more than a servant by her own family.

She has only Lady Russell for a friend, and really, Lady Russell stands more in the place of a mother or favorite aunt.

On top of that, she rejected the only man who ever loved her, an action she now bitterly regrets.

So, my sympathies are entirely with poor Anne.

Lady Wesley wrote: "On the subject of Anne -- I wrote the following some time ago in response to a reader who said she wasn't finishing the book because she found it too depressing. I think perhaps you're meant to fee..."

I entirely agree! Well said!

Well, I couldn't help myself. Once I started, I had to keep going, and I went straight to the end.

One of the things that is so different about this novel compared to Austen's other five is that the heroine is older. That means that unlike the other five, it is not really a coming-of-age story. Unlike the heroines in the other novels, Anne is already grown up.

I've always wondered if that is why it is shorter.

Wow, the discussion is already in full swing!

I agree with Lady Wesley about Anne. Her life at the beginning of the novel is really depressing. Every time I read the first chapters I always feel she is resigned. Anne probably fight a lot in her earyl youth for her voice to be heard, but now she seems resigned, as breaking with Wentworth drew all her strength away.

I think that Anne is a grown up heroine because Jane Austen wrote Persuasion at the end of her life and probably she was more confortable with a more mature character.

I want to share two sentences I like of chapter 3. The first one is about Sir Walter and, in my opinion, shows all the shallowness of this character. After he agrees to rent his house out to Admiral Croft, Jane writes:
"An admiral speaks his own consequence, and, at the same time, can never make a baronet look small. In all their dealings and intercourse, Sir Walter Elliot must ever have the precedence". This explains how self-centered Sir Walter is.
And the second one is so beautiful that every time I read it I love it more. It shows the beauty and the goodness of Anne's heart:
"As she walked along a favourite grove, said, with a gentle sigh, "A few months more, and he, perhaps, may be walking here."
So romantic!
Have you got any favourite sentences or scenes?

I agree with you, Maria!
The second sentence you quote is one of my favourite too.
I believe that the whole first chapter describe very well Sir Walter. And I'm always surprised by the fact that Anne, who is the real main character, barely appears in the first two chapters.

I really like this part of chapter V:

"Sir Walter, without hesitation, declared the Admiral to be the best-looking sailor he had ever met with, and went so far as to say, that, if his own man might have had the arranging of his hair, he should not be ashamed of being seen with him any where, and the Admiral, with sympathetic cordiality observed to his wife as they drove back thorough the Park, "I thought we should soon come to a deal, my dear, in spite of what they told us at Taunton. The baronet will never set the Thames on fire, but there seems no harm in him" - reciprocal compliments which would have been esteemed about equal."

I believe this simple passage highlight very well the fact that, despite their difference in rank, the Admiral has a great deal of common sense, while Sir Walter has none.

Great discussions :)

I feel so much sympathy for Anne - it is only natural to feel for her! I cannot imagine what she is suffering have being persuaded to break off an engagement to the love of her life. Then to be treated like scum by her family!

I think it is a fair assumption actually to think Elizabeth Sir Walter's wife - they act like it!

I think Sir Walter is a bad father yes - his careless in regards to money is not responsible at all and then he really does not treat his daughters as he should, Anne especially!

I love that quote Maria ("As she walked along a favourite grove, said, with a gentle sigh, "A few months more, and he, perhaps, may be walking here.")

And I agree Irene, that is a brilliant passage - Sir Walter is really a silly man!

It also struck me as I re-read it how little Anne appears in the first few chapters!

Maria wrote: "I want to share two sentences I like of chapter 3. The first one is about Sir Walter and, in my opinion, shows all the shallowness of this character. After he agrees to rent his house out to Admira..."


I want to response to your first sentence about Sir Walter, I agree with you he is very swallow. After reading chapter one I realized (in my view) that Sir Walter is more worried how the neighbours would perceive he filing for bankruptcy (in my view) than how he mismanaged his legacy and how it would impact on their need for food,clothing and shelter. The man is just unbelievable. He should really be a surgeon,maybe plastic surgery if the practised existed then because he is too obsessed with every line on just his face but everyone's own.

Oh Marren you do make me laugh!

Maria wrote: "It is very fun to read about the vanity of Sir Elliot. But I also feel sorry for Elizabeth... only in the first chapter :) There is a paragraph when we can understand how sad and disappointed she i..."


I agree with your sentiments concerning Elizabeth in this instance. She feels the stigma which comes with a girl of 29 unmarried and having her youngest sister married crushed her. The narrator says "...always to be presented with the date of her own birth and see no marriage follow but that of a youngest sister, made the book an evil..."


This girl annoyed me and crushed my spirits because of the way she treated my favourite heroine but for this instance I understand her plight. Elizabeth is considered the beauty of the family yet, she has not attracted a beau. Yet Anne was once engaged and seriously considered by Mr. Musgrove. Mary is considered not only less attractive but lacking tact and sweetness like Anne is married. Is this a coincidence or am I reading too much into the situation?

Soph wrote: "Oh Marren you do make me laugh!"


Laughter is good :).

Marren wrote: "Maria wrote: "It is very fun to read about the vanity of Sir Elliot. But I also feel sorry for Elizabeth... only in the first chapter :) There is a paragraph when we can understand how sad and disa..."

I totally agree with you Marren. That was exactly what I meant. I pity Elizabeth at the beginning of the novel because despite she is considered the beauty of the family she had no chance to be happy with a husband, otherwise her sisters had some moments of happiness. And the most important thing is that Jane describes her feelings and her discomfort. I believe she does that to explain why Elizabeth behaves so badly with Anne. A sort of excuse for her bad actions towards Anne.

I want to share with you a part of chapter 4.

"More than seven years were gone since this little history of sorrowful interest had reached its close; and time had softened down much, perhaps nearly all of peculiar attachment to him, but she had been too dependent on time alone; no aid had been given in change of place ... or in any novelty or enlargement of society. No one had ever come to Kellynch cirle, who could bear a comparison with Frederick Wentworth, as he stood in her memory.

This part suggests a lot. I think that Austen is practically saying that if Anne sought out other men's society, that if she made a conscious effort to get over Frederick she would have forgotten about him. Therefore, it's not that Anne couldn't get over him, it's that she DIDN'T try to!

You know guys, those re-readings of Austen are helping me see that perhaps Miss Austen wasn't such a romantic after all. She's just so skillful in slipping those hints you wouldn't even notice she is passing on a judgement.

What do you guys think?

Chahrazad wrote: "You know guys, those re-readings of Austen are helping me see that perhaps Miss Austen wasn't such a romantic after all. She's just so skillful in slipping those hints you wouldn't even notice she is passing on a judgement."

Excellent observation!

This question has been debated among academics for years. I do not find that Austen was a Romantic at all, even though she wrote during the Romantic period. Like many of the best novelists, she wrote about what she knew -- life in the English countryside, which included courtship, marriage, children, and interaction among neighbors.

The movie versions of her works have helped spread her popularity among people who have never read her books, but because they are treated as romances by the filmmakers, they have contributed to her undeserved reputation as a writer of mere romances.

There is just so much else to her books.

Lady Wesley wrote: The movie versions of her works have helped spread her popularity among people who have never read her books, but because they are treated as romances by the filmmakers, they have contributed to her undeserved reputation as a writer of mere romances.


You make a point here too. I believe the movies play the biggest role in sentimentalizing Austen ever to her very avid readers. Most of us women start reading Austen when we are juvenile and mostly teenagers (the case of my surrounding at least) and that doesn't really help to figure out things the first time, and that's why I like those re-readings; they help me reacquaint myself with Austen.

Chahrazad wrote: "I want to share with you a part of chapter 4.

"More than seven years were gone since this little history of sorrowful interest had reached its close; and time had softened down much, perhaps nearl..."



Hmmmm, Anne did not venture out of her circle that much because no one in the family care to see her travel. The question is did Austen want her to get over Captain W? Did Anne refuse Charles because she was still attached to Captain W or did she simply did not like the guy. Should Anne sort other men (by the way a "lady" does not sort men) just to get over Captain W? Should she pursue just to have a beau for having a beau sake. Or should she just wait until she comes across another man who she `feel` again. You see Elizabeth comes across as the one who longs to get married but Anne does not say, she just lurks in the shadow. I could smack her for allowing Lady Russell to persuade to break her engagement to Captain W. Then she walks in the garden rumblings, beginning her journey to emotional stroke.

Chahrazad wrote: "I want to share with you a part of chapter 4.

"More than seven years were gone since this little history of sorrowful interest had reached its close; and time had softened down much, perhaps nearl..."


I do agree with you that Austen is not a serious romantic author because she said it herself. I quite agree it is the film adaptations who overly sensualize her writings. However, one cannot help but notice the frequent pairing off of couples, sharing of hair, sitting very close, riding off in haste to please the one smitten over etc. This should account for something. Love, infatuation....

Very interesting observations. Great one about Anne not trying to get over Wentworth. I agree with this, but she was not hoping to rekindle the romance between them and I think the reason she refused Mr Musgrove was because she couldn't imagine being married to HIM, not because of continued feelings towards Wentworth.

As to Jane Austen not being a romantic.... this is very much a debated question but yes, she said herself she wasn't. She wanted to focus on other aspects and didn't want to go all soppy romance like some authors. But, that is not to say there is not any romance in her stories - there most definitely is! Darcy's proposals (In vain I have struggled...), Knightley's proposals (If I loved you less...), Wentworth's letter (I am half agony...) etc etc So, I agree with Marren's last comment.

Oh, yes, Soph, plenty of romantic moments, and thanks for reminding me of Knightley's proposal. But, as I said, there is just so much more to her books. And I've learned several things for this group read.

As for Anne marrying Musgrove -- just imagine. He seems like a nice enough chap, but all that interests him are hunting and his dogs. I can't believe it would have been a happy match.

Oh no! Charles and Anne are definitely not meant for each other! Just think about Anne's possible life with him. Probably she would be like Mary... always sick! Maybe Charles is the cause for Mary's illnesses :)

Maria wrote: "Probably she would be like Mary... always sick! Maybe Charles is the cause for Mary's illnesses."

Good point. Mary uses her supposed bad health to get attention. Austen makes it clear that Sir Walter had no regard for his two younger daughters, so perhaps this began even before her marriage as a way to get attention from her negligent father. Anne, on the other hand, reconciled herself with being ignored.

Mary and Elizabeth are completely without self awareness.

Oh yes, there is so much more to Jane's books, not just romance, but there is definitely some in there! Jane Austen's writing has so many layers!

It could not have been a happy marriage no... and thinking about it, maybe it makes Mary's behaviour a little less self-centred? Charles isn't the best husband!

I don't even dream of denying the amazing romantic moments in Austen's books, you named the best Soph :)

Anne and Charles Musgrove!!!!
Well, I think that Charles Musgrove is a very sensible man, otherwise why would he propose to Anne first. He obviously saw her superiority and merit. Now what I don't get is why would he turn to Mary when Anne refused his proposal!!!

I think that Charles would definitely stay home more and care more if Mary wasn't the way she was.

Jane Austen is not a romantic in the literary meaning of the word. She lived and wrote between the end of the Romantic period and the beginning of the age of Enilghtenment and I think this dichotomy is clearer than ever in Sense and Sensibility, where Marianne is a clear rappresentation of Romanticism (in fact, at the beginning of the novel, she reminds me of the Bronte's heroins) and Elinor represents Enlightenment.
However Jane Austen writes quite romantic situations for her characters, she wants her heroins to marry for love and not for interes, I think that she herself believed in love a lot.
The point is that she believed in a kind of love tempered by reason. We can see the effects of passion not tempered by reason in Marianne and Lydia's conduct.

Anne, in Persuasion, is probably an example of love overruled by reason, she was too cautious in breaking the engagement with Wentworth, even more cautious than Elinor Dashwood was with Edward, and that's really saying something!
I think that she didn't marry Charles Musgrove for two main reasons: she didn't love him, because she knew how it felt to love someone and that wasn't what she felt for Musgrove; she knew from past experience that Lady Russell's advice was not infallible and sometimes she had better follow her instinct.

Coming to Mary, I don't think that Anne's marriage with Charles would have been like Mary and Charles'. Anne has a lot of inner resources and she would have looked after their children.
Moreover I think that Charles spends so much time hunting because he needs to stay away from his wife. He wouldn't have this need to stay away from Anne.

Irene wrote: "Jane Austen is not a romantic in the literary meaning of the word. She lived and wrote between the end of the Romantic period and the beginning of the age of Enilghtenment and I think this dichotom..."

Very well said Irene :)

Irene wrote: "Anne, in Persuasion, is probably an example of love overruled by reason,"

Well said, Irene.

Moreover I think that Charles spends so much time hunting because he needs to stay away from his wife. He wouldn't have this need to stay away from Anne.

That has always been my view of poor Charles.

Irene wrote: "Jane Austen is not a romantic in the literary meaning of the word. She lived and wrote between the end of the Romantic period and the beginning of the age of Enilghtenment and I think this dichotom..."

You've got those periods reversed, but I take your meaning anyhow. She was writing in a time of great changes in literary tastes. I note that this discussion stretches from the US, to the UK, Algeria, Italy, and Canada. And who knows where else? That's one of the things I love about Goodreads -- finding people with similar interests all over the world.

Well said Irene.

I agree actually regarding Charles. I think he would have been more attentive to Anne as she is far more sensible than Mary!

You're right Lady Wesley! I mean the opposite :P

I just cannot imagine how Charles puts up with Mary constant whining about her sickness when he knows she knows that she is not sick.

Mary behaves like some of the Parker siblings in Sanditon. They have vivid imaginations. However, I suppose that Mary's moaning are her constant companions.

Yes poor guy! They both know she is fine...

I’m very late to the discussion but I hope you don’t mind if I pitch in.

I’ve always loved how Jane Austen describes her characters, so much is conveyed both from what is said and what is implied, it gives them a depth that other authors find hard to achieve.

I do feel a little sorry for Elizabeth, after all, having lost her mother whom would she look up to but her father? It is because they are so alike that he favours her above the others and of course that means he encourages the worst of her nature, and who is going to check her with such approval? If she is not to be pitied now, she must be when her father dies because if she is still not married, she will lose everything that matters to her.

I wouldn’t say that Sir Walter is a good father, but he means no harm to his children, the harm he does is unconscious and from a certain lack of understanding. Unfortunately, with Elizabeth following his cues she compounds the problem and instead of supporting her younger siblings she dismisses them.

There was a discussion about whether Anne would have got over Wentworth if she’d moved more in society, this is echoed later on in the book and does seem to match Anne’s own sentiments there. It was not possible for her to take her mind off him, or to meet anyone else, therefore she dwelt on her feelings for him. At the same time, she did have an opportunity to marry someone else and because she didn’t feel for him what she’d felt before, she declined.

I don’t think Anne and Charles Musgrove would have been a bad match if he’d waited longer instead of marrying Mary. It’s clear that she would never have felt the love for him that she did for Wentworth but she would have given him a comfortable home, loved her children and his family and not minded half as much as Mary about being alone or losing her consequence. He held her in affection and was a kind husband, she may have come to love him more in time as well and at the very least she would have made the best of it.

Everyone is a little hard on Mary though, it doesn’t say she is never ill, just that she makes a lot out of it to get attention, and that being neglected and lonely makes her feel ill. She does have a little too much pride of course, and that stops her from winning the affection and attention she craves so much, but she doesn’t understand that.

Why would Charles turn to her when Anne rejected him? The description of her says, “While well, and happy, and properly attended to, she had great good humour and excellent spirits, but any indisposition sunk her completely.” No doubt when she first returned from school and was in her own home, with Anne to give her love and attention whenever she wanted it, he saw the best side of her.

As for whether Jane Austen was a romantic? She wrote romances, but with an understanding of human nature that makes it clear that she saw past the ideas we surround ourselves with. She could see what the real world was like, she took a practical view and so did her heroines…. but they still got their happy endings. The hero’s love them enough to come back and give them a second chance, or someone more worthy comes along and they find love again. We can speculate about whether she did that for her own sake or her audience’s, but for all the cynicism portrayed in the books, there is always a spark of hope. Persuasion was written at a time in her life when she was no doubt thinking about the nature of love and its endurance because they were definitely things it explored. Perhaps she was a romantic once but had been forced into a more pragmatic view?

No worries at all - thank you for adding to the discussion anyway :)

I like your insight into Elizabeth and I think your ideas very likely. If she remains unmarried she will lose everything!

You are right about Sir Walter. he does not mean to harm them. I guess in a way a little like Mr Bennet who doesn't mean to harm his daughters but his lack of proper parenting causes them some problems.

Charles definitely would have seen Mary at her best and not known what type of wife she would make.

I agree with you about Jane Austen as well. In her heart she is a romantic but has lived through life and has a practical view on love and marriage as well, but her stories are a way for her to escape to a world where the heroine always has a happy ending.

Louise wrote: "I’m very late to the discussion but I hope you don’t mind if I pitch in.

I’ve always loved how Jane Austen describes her characters, so much is conveyed both from what is said and what is implied,..."

Hmm, I am not sure Charles would suit Anne. She did not love him to marry him and Anne seem the must love to marry you, hence Captain W had a second chance around. She still loved him.

Perhaps not, but I mean that if she'd made up her mind to marry him, which she might have eventually rather than be on her own, she would have made the best of it and given Charles a comfortable life without showing her deeper disapointment.