Jane Austen discussion

They all go and visit Captain Harville down in Lyme Regis, cue Mr Elliot, Louisa is rather foolish and causes herself an injury and Anne finally goes reluctantly to Bath

The turning point!
Lyme is where Captain Wentworth begins to realize he still feels something for Anne and, at the same time, finds himself trapped by Louisa Musgrove foolish behaviour and his imprudence.
Despite his profession of being indifferent to Anne, I think that he showed so much interest in Louisa to prove to himself and to Anne that he had overcame their past story. Probably he was subconsciously trying to make Anne jealous.
What do you think?

I do think he was trying to make her jealous yes. He is telling her he is 'so over her' (;)) by going all out on Louisa, which has then backfired for him as he now realises he still wants Anne but he is practically engaged to Louisa....

My favourite part of this chapters is a scene from chapter 12.
"It was evident that the gentleman, (completely a gentleman in manner) admired her exceedingly. Captain Wentworth looked round at her instantly in a way which shewed his noticing of it. He gave her a momentary glance, a glance of brightness, which seemed to say, "That man is struck with you, and even I, at this moment, see something like Anne Elliot again."
First of all, Mr. Elliot is not at all a gentleman (but we will discover it later); second Wentworth starts to feel jealousy towards Anne and he is adorable!

I agree Maria! This scene is perfect!

I love that scene so much too!!! So romantic!

I love the jealously shown in that scene. And Mr Elliot is in no way a gentleman!

Talking about Mary, Jane writes:
"She had been taken to Charmouth too, and she had bathed, and she had gone to church, and there were a great many more people to look at in the church at Lyme than at Uppercross; and all this, joined to the sense of being so very useful, had made really an agreeable
fortnight." I love Jane's wit :) Mary is very shallow, a quality her father definitely gave to her.

That is a fantastic example of her wit!

Maria wrote: "Talking about Mary, Jane writes:
"She had been taken to Charmouth too, and she had bathed, and she had gone to church, and there were a great many more people to look at in the church at Lyme than ..."


I agree Maria, Mary does take after her father, so did Elizabeth. From the way Anne and Lady Russell speaks, Anne was the one who took after her mother. Her mother death affected her severely.

Maria wrote: "My favourite part of this chapters is a scene from chapter 12.
"It was evident that the gentleman, (completely a gentleman in manner) admired her exceedingly. Captain Wentworth looked round at her ..."


I am not to sure what to make of Captain W's behaviour. I was "ohhhhh Captain, are you now noticing her or you always did but you were less careful in the way you watch her this time."

Truth a man to be on edge when another shows interest in the woman he regards. Hmmmm

It's almost like it takes Mr Elliot to show attention to Anne for Wentworth to realise that he is still in love with Anne and always has been! Another use for the abominable Mr Elliot!

I always wonder why men behave that way. Things have not change much in that department throughout the decades.

That is very true! Jealousy...

Some observations:

There is a part where where the writer says "She endeavoured to be composed, and to be just. Without emulating the feelings of an Emma towards her Henry, she would attended on Louisa with a zeal..." Chapter 12.

Who is this Emma and Henry?


Henrietta says " I have always heard of Lady Russell as a woman of the greatest influence with everybody! I always look upon her as able to persuade a person to anything! I am afraid of her, as I have told you before, quite afraid of her, because she is very clever..." Chapter 12

This made me ponder a bit. If Lady Russell is so good at persuading then maybe Anne is not so unable to make her own decisions. It may be that Lady Russell used her cleverness to outwit Anne to let Captain W go. I also notice that Lady Russel loves dictating her but she does it in an unabashedly manner that one may hardly notice. Notice how she disapprove of Mrs. Clay going to Bath with the Elliots but she does not make a great noise about it. Notice how she tries to have Anne to consider Captain Benwick when hears how the others spoke good of him. Notice how later she tries to have Anne to consider Mr. Elliot. Lady Russell may indeed be clever! However, we see more of her interactions with Anne.

I also think that Lady Russell just do not like Captain W. First she persuades Anne to break off her engagement to him. Second, watch her action when she thinks that Captain W and Louisa are an item:"Lady Russell had only to listen completely, and wish them happy, but internally her heart rebelled in angry pleasure, in pleased contempt, that the man who at twenty-three had seemed to understand somewhat of the value of an Anne Elliot, should, eight years afterwards, be charmed by a Louisa Musgrove."

I am not sure I like Lady Russell.

Another point: Did anyone notice how Austen shift scenes from Uppercross to Bath. That was so fantastic, I held my breath.One minute is speaking about Lady Russell despair about the noise at Uppercross, next without warning carriage is pulling up into Bath. Well done Jane, well done.

I found it ironic that Lady Russell cannot deal with the noisy party at Uppercross but she loves Bath. Bath is noisy. People on the street, noise of trade, bells...but I guess everyone likes their sort of noise.hmmm

Marren wrote: "Some observations:

There is a part where where the writer says "She endeavoured to be composed, and to be just. Without emulating the feelings of an Emma towards her Henry, she would attended on L..."

This is what I found in a note to Chapter 12: Matthew Prior, "Henry and Emma" (1709),a charming classical pastiche of the old ballad "The Nut Brown Maid", in which Emma serves her supposed rival for Henry's love.

I'm not sure I like Lady Russel too, even if I can understand her behaviour in a certain degree. She does what she thinks it's best for Anne, but she does it with her view of the world in mind, that is quite different from Anne's and from our view of the world. She gave importance to consequence, we give importance to love and true happiness.

I think Lady Russel dislikes Captain Wentworth because he is the only one who has a greater influence than herself on Anne. And, since Lady Russel has no real complaint to make about Wentworth character or consequence (not after his return from the war), she tries to find faults in his taste for women.

Irene wrote: "Marren wrote: "Some observations:

There is a part where where the writer says "She endeavoured to be composed, and to be just. Without emulating the feelings of an Emma towards her Henry, she woul..."


Thank you so much for explaining about Emma and Henry.



Ohhhhh you brought a perspective about Lady Russel's relationship with Anne that I never considered. It is true that Lady Russell had the most influence over Anne. However Captain W came along AGAIN. Ohhhhhh, this is a good perspective.

Interesting and very true about Lady Russell. I understand Annes attachment to her - we all like a mother figure. But she is very much the dictator, in a quiet and subtle way. I cannot quite say why she doesn't like Captain Wentworth. I don't know what she has against him. She knows he was wise in first selecting Anne as she understands Anne's superior nature but she just doesn't like the poor man! I do not believe she has a valid reason so her behaviour is just odd.

Hang on! Irene you've got it! Of course she would try to find reasons to dislike the man to come along and influence HER Anne. I can identify with that - when you so want to dislike a person but can find nothing to fault, it just makes it worse and the excuses for the dislike even sillier.

I've always believed that Lady Russell simply thought Wentworth and Anne would be an unequal, and therefore unsuitable, match. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking the man himself. Anne is the daughter of a viscount, after all, and while we don't know anything about Wentworth's parents, we can assume they were gentry, at best. It is difficult for us twenty-first century readers to appreciate how deeply held these beliefs were two hundred years ago.

When he first presented himself he was a mere lieutenant with virtually no assets, so she may have viewed him as a fortune-hunter as well as a social climber. Eight years later, he is wealthy and virtually guaranteed to become an admiral and acquire even more wealth, so one objection to him has been removed. Despite his advancement, however, he remains beneath Anne socially, and that alone is probably enough in Lady Russell's eyes.

We are told, at the very end of the book, however, that Anne was "satisfied at a very early period of Lady Russell's meaning to love Captain Wentworth as she ought . . . . " There is a rather longish passage about how utterly wrong Lady Russell had gotten things in her opinions of Captain Wentworth and Mr. Elliot. "But she was a very good woman, and if her second object was to be sensible and well-judging, her first was to see Anne happy. She loved Anne better than she loved her own abilities; and when the awkwardness of the beginning was over, found little hardship in attaching herself as a mother to the man who was securing the happiness of her other child."

You ladies say such interesting, pertinent and insightful comments that I never know what to say!

Thank you for offering me such new perspectives on Persuasion!

Well it is true there is a social difference and the importance of that and problems caused by it were huge, you are right. Wentworth was below Anne when they first met. When he appears again the gap is smaller due to his position he earned at war. Anne is also now getting close to spinster hood I think Lady Russell should be happy for her to marry a now respected sea caption to ensure her future. But I still think she doesn't like him, still holds a grudge against him from the first time he turned up.

You’ve all raised some very good points, and I wondered about the Emma and Henry thing too, thanks for that! I love the subtle descriptions of Mary and the others too, it shows them in their best and worst lights at the same time.

If I can offer a slightly different view of Lady Russell here…

She loved Ann’s mother like a sister and seeing Ann effectively alone after her mother’s death, stepped in as a surrogate mother. At this point she has Ann’s welfare very much at heart. Wentworth as a young officer is a huge risk and she sees Ann dazzled by her first love. She also has almost as much of the Elliott Pride (for the Elliotts) as they themselves. She talks to Ann, a young woman who has no mother and no sister that she can confide in, and persuades her that the match will not be beneficial to either of them… and she assumes she has succeeded when Ann breaks off the engagement.

It’s not until he returns that Ann tells her that she regrets the choice and would never give the same advice to someone else in the same position. When they discuss it, it gives the impression that she had until then, thought that Ann had come to agree with her, because to Lady Russell it’s the obvious position.

So yes, I think Lady Russell wants to dislike Captain Wentworth when he returns, because she needs to justify the influence she had over Ann, otherwise she hurt her closest friend, whom she loves as a daughter, for nothing, and has possibly ruined her chances for life. Lady Russell judged him as unworthy, and unworthy he needs to be… but she does finally have to admit she’s wrong, for Ann’s sake, (and her own because she doesn’t want to lose Ann,) so I don’t think she can be really bad.

You raise some good points and a new perspective on Lady Russell. She would want to dislike him because of the need to justify her, seemingly wrong, actions.
Good points!