Memoirs of a Geisha discussion

Chiyo/Nitta Sayuri suffered a lot yes, but overall her motives to me were selfish in a way, I feel like a lot of people throughout the story had to suffer for the sake of Sayuri's happy ending with the Chairman. And Mameha was always very calculating and manipulating to me, and didn't really care about Chiyo all the much beyond her potential to help Mameha get her revenge against Hatsumomo. To be honest, I don't really think the book was just about Chiyo and her memoirs. It was also about Hatsumomo and Mameha's rivalry and how it ended up destroying everything with help of the War. Just told from Chiyo's point of view, who was mostly oblivious to all the betrayal and chaos. I think that Mameha is just as bad as Hatsumomo! She and Sayuri ganged up on Hatsumomo and pushed her to her breaking point and Hatsumomo ends up being exiled from Gion and drinking herself to death. Mameha was just as cruel and sneaky as Hatsumomo but she's a lot more subtle about it. She'll throw anyone under the bus such as poor Pumpkin who's dreams of becoming the adoptive daughter of the Nitta Okiya were stolen from her. Memeha didn't take Pumpkin into consideration and how it would effect her, she did this just to get back at her rival and Sayuri did the same just to get closer to the Chairman knowing how badly Pumpkin wanted to impress and be daughter to mother...that was selfish. Anyone else agree?

I see where you are coming from. I think people saw Chiyo for her uniqueness and she was kind of flung into the fight between them all, and it was all who was going to benefit from the girl with the smoky eyes. Does that make sense?

Rebecca wrote: "I see where you are coming from. I think people saw Chiyo for her uniqueness and she was kind of flung into the fight between them all, and it was all who was going to benefit from the girl with th..."

Yes. It makes perfect sense. I just thought that nobody had Chiyo's best interest at heart. And Chiyo didn't take Pumpkin nor her feelings into consideration. I understand why Pumpkin became so jaded and angry. Sayuri could have said no to Mother about becoming the adoptive daughter. And she didn't...

But she STILL would have become the adopted daughter anyways unless she left the house completely and that was even more dangerous. It has to be seen in the context and culture in which the story occurred. She was a woman, she was unique. If anything, her uniqueness which plagued her with such a horrible life also saved her life.

It's an interesting point of view aldoght i partialy agree with it . As it is well sade hear Sayuri couldn't say no in becoming the adoptive dauther . Not to mention Mother saw her potantiall and toght that Sayuri could benefit better her interest

Firstly, it was not a healthy competition, each player tries to get things to her advantage by hook or crook, so there is no meaning to sacrificing or being selfless. Had Hatsumomo got what she wanted, what would have happened to Sayuri?

Oh, absolutely selfish. But how else could they be? I wish we'd learned more about Hatsumomo's past, to learn why she was such a monster. We know about Memeha; no family in the world but a selfish man who wouldn't allow her to have a child of her own (nor did her position in society). And as for Sayuri, well, we know how she came to behave that way. These women were all incredibly selfish, but in such a competitive world, with such high stakes and no family to have their backs, what else could they do?

I can see what you mean, but they live in a harsh world and if Hatsumoto had won she would have been just as ruthless if not more so.

I really agree with you luxia

Selfish? Or surviving?

Would you have sacrificed yourself for someone like Hatsumomo? Someone who was trying to destroy you?

Do you think it's naive to judge these characters from a completely different culture, in a very different time, by the standards of 21st century American/Western European women?

I think the story is all about survival. The geisha culture appears romantic and beautiful, but for those who were initiated into the geisha way of life it was a very hard regime. Most geishas began their training at a very early age and they had to fight to get to the top. We can't really judge them because they were living at a very different time. I don't think the culture is so very different to the celebrity culture we live in today. The top geisha of the day were celebrities in their own right. Read Geisha, by Liza Dalby. She was the only foreigner to become a geisha. It's fascinating reading.

I understand why you think Mameha was ruthless (honestly I thought so to), but appears more innocent than Hatsumomo. The geisha life was incredibly competitive. I actually think Chiyo/Sayuri was thrown into the mess and was not selfish until she became a novice geisha with Mameha. I also felt sorry of S

(sorry continuing from last post)Sayuri's sister who was sold as well but into a worse place. Sayuri never thought of her again really.... anhyway that's what I think

Thinking back on it, after re-reading the book, human nature doesn't change. There are Hatusumomos, Mamehas and Sayuris to be caught between them today, just in different venues. I've had to work with — or for — Hatsumomos too many times. Or for lawyers married to one.

I'd have better served myself if I had more of Mameha's character, or more of Sayuri's belief in a happy ending worth fighting for.

I think, like anything in life, it's all about perspective. We can't really judge people put in situations we've never been put in ourselves. History hasn't ever really been kind to women, and I really feel like they were just playing the cards they'd been dealt and doing the best they could to survive the way they'd been taught to in this barbaric time in history for women.

I am always amazed at the intricacy of the deceits that Arthur Golden wrote into those manipulative Japanese female minds. So many small betrayals I didn't see coming that mesh with larger wheels of the story.

I always find the male/female sex/power contract an interesting topic. In cultures where women have little overt power, there is always an alternate outlet and I think this story demonstrates this very clearly.

This story is of Sayuri's learning how to become a powerful woman under such cultural restraints. In the end, she must learn to lie, cheat and manipulate or remain poor and common. Such a system would not bring out the best in a person.

I agree with an earlier post by Renee that there are still such women in the world. The sex/power cultural "contract" between men and women is always a factor. Even in our North American culture, we encourage and reward women for being beautiful which can be hobbling. It takes extra time/energy, it means wearing clothing which is impractical for anything physical, it pits each woman against the next and it feeds their insecurities (because there is always someone more beautiful) and it puts an expiration date on their value. Beyond being a problem in itself, all of this distracts and discourages women from working on core values such as character, inner strength, confidence.

It's not good for men, either because they have to live with the women that such a system churns out.(wmdean.com)

Luxia wrote: "Chiyo/Nitta Sayuri suffered a lot yes, but overall her motives to me were selfish in a way, I feel like a lot of people throughout the story had to suffer for the sake of Sayuri's happy ending with..."

Luxia wrote: "Chiyo/Nitta Sayuri suffered a lot yes, but overall her motives to me were selfish in a way, I feel like a lot of people throughout the story had to suffer for the sake of Sayuri's happy ending with..."

My understanding was that Mameha wanted to stop Hatsumomo not out of rivalry so much as Hatsumomo had the potential to be the "tiger let loose from it's cage" as Sayuri so articulately expressed. Hatsumomo could have made hell for everyone in Gion had she been able to move up and realize her plans for world domination, er... being destructive to everyone in her wake.

Luxia wrote: "Chiyo/Nitta Sayuri suffered a lot yes, but overall her motives to me were selfish in a way, I feel like a lot of people throughout the story had to suffer for the sake of Sayuri's happy ending with..."

Also, Pumkin suffered because she lost as Sayuri's rival... in the game, someone has to lose, not necessarily cruel, just unfortunate.

In my opinion I think Chiyo had to be obedient as a survival method making her actions seem selfish. I think the only thing that made her selfish was choosing the Chairman. But she also worked hard to get his attention and I think she deserved happiness at the end.

At the beginning of the story, she was always into trouble but also she was very young. I don't think this necessarily means she was selfish but headstrong.

That being said, it was a different time where women were commonly dispensable. The only person I feel bad for in the story is Chiyo's sister and Nobu but I also have sympathy for other characters. And if I were in her shoes, I'd probably do the same thing she had.

At the end of the day, the geisha community of the time was much like imperial China's concubine community. It was a cutthroat world. Totally different from anything now. The women who wanted to be important in this 'work' had to be cunning, and skilled at the art of deception, but still be able to have the facade of a good person so that they had allies. I agree that many of the characters seem selfish, but if I was put in the same situation, I'd have probably been the same way. Chiyo was a sweet little girl that had to adapt to her environment. When everyone around you is selfish, it's not surprising if you give up at one point and become selfish too. That moment is when she is transformed into Sayuri.