The Orion Team. discussion

Do any of you find that some authors lump the FSB (Russian Domestic Intelligence) with SVR ( Russian Foreign Intelligence) as a single agency in certain books belonging to the genre? In Tom Clancy's Threat Vector, the FSB were coordinating a foreign operation on Chinese soil with the main characters, a unrealistic expansion of their powers and something more akin to what the SVR would do.

Even authors like Brad Thor, known for accuracy have made this mistake, like in , where the FSB is portrayed to be doing foreign intelligence.

So I'm just wondering, do you find it common for the Russian Foreign intelligence agency to be labelled "FSB" instead of "SVR" (although it's true that the FSB does work in the Commonwealth of independent states neighboring Russia where by agreement, the SVR does not operate) ? I'm simply curious to know if this is a common research mistake as I've found it quite
frequent in some of the books I read last year.

I nearly made this mistake while working on my book, "New China". I think that the term "FSB" gets thrown around more so I lumped it in my head as a Russian foriegn intelligence agency. I dont think one actually hears term "SVR" used very much. It could also be due to the fact that "KGB" used was used all the time and they handled both foriegn and domestic counter-intelleigence. If someone was told that FSB is the sucessor to the KGB, they might not think to look any further.

Barry wrote: "I nearly made this mistake while working on my book, "New China". I think that the term "FSB" gets thrown around more so I lumped it in my head as a Russian foriegn intelligence agency. I dont thin..."

Agreed. The FSB is more undeniably more famous than the SVR. The fact that they're based in the old KGB office in Lubyanka square doesn't help matters. They also have a much more intimidating reputation (counter-terrorism in Chechnya, dissident suppression) than their SVR counterparts who can't afford the media attention their sister agency gets due to the more delicate nature of their work.

I recently got your book "New China" and will be planning to read it over Christmas this year. The teaser was very intriguing. I like geopolitical thrillers and novels set in Asia. A geopolitical thriller set in Asia like "New China" is simply icing on the cake. Will try to post a review of it on goodreads as well.

Thanks. I hope you enjoy it.

I have a theory that the SVR and the FSB have an unspoken gentlemen's agreement where the latter deliberately draws attention to itself, only going overseas (not just to the neighbor states where the SVR is prohibited to operate by agreement) when Putin gives them their marching orders and when they have to murder any of their officers who try to defect (The 2006 London Sushi Bar incident). And while we look at the FSB, the SVR quietly goes about its business of gathering intelligence away from the headlines. And because the FSB gets more exposure, spy thriller authors peg it as the only player in the Russian Federation intelligence community.

Black Flagged Core Bundle: Books 2-4 in the Black Flagged Series

A series which stars both the FSB and SVR. It also prominently features, the Spetsnaz unit no one ever heard of. ZASLON. They're basically the SVR's version of the Special Activities Division and they go to even greater lengths at maintaining their low profile (nearly non-existent and filled with enough disinformation to last for a decade.)

I've got to get into Konkoly's Black Flagged series when I get the chance. Been wanting to for several years.

Stephen wrote: "I've got to get into Konkoly's Black Flagged series when I get the chance. Been wanting to for several years."

They're well plotted and very brutal. A great focus on the lesser known components of the Russian Intelligence community (the SVR) and the technical details, especially regarding biological warfare (a major theme in the "core bundle") are a treat.

Bad news. I just found there's a new error. Browsed two novels recently. Both of them mistake the GRU for SVR.

"facepalm".

Surely it's not difficult to get the roles of the organs of Russia's intelligence community right?

Handy Guide for the three relevant Russian intelligence agencies and their equivalents.

1) SVR (foreign intelligence service) Russia's CIA/SIS. Does foreign intelligence gathering (political/economic) and deals with those who have annoyed Putin and ran off abroad. Liquidated former FSB officer turned defector Alex Litvinenko in the London polonium incident. Have their own Special Activities Division equivalent called ZASLON, a unit which they fanatically try to keep under wraps but have ultimately failed to do so with recent operations. Based in the South Moscow suburb of Yasenevo, their office is infamous for poaching the architecture of Langley Virginia, and then proceeding to butcher it.

2) FSB (Federal Security Service) Russia's FBI/MI5, infused with a Chekist flavor. Domestic security. These guys hunt the spies, Chechen Islamist terrorists and the occasional dissident who has annoyed Vlad and hadn't had the good sense to run. Putin also ran the place before entering politics. Have a substantial paramilitary capability, running among other things Spetsnaz ALFA, Russia's GSG9, along with their own coast guard. DO NOT do foreign intelligence gathering....except in the Commonwealth Of Independent States, where allegedly due to a series of agreements, the SVR can't operate in. Loopholes are fun.
Based in the old KGB offices at "Adults World", Lubyanka square in Central Moscow, which I think is one of the main causes behind the misconceptions relating to the FSB.

3) GRU (Main Intelligence Directorate) Russia's DIA, and also one of the pioneers of modern industrial espionage and a general trailblazer in intelligence gathering. Having survived the reorganization in the Post communist era, unlike their hated rivals in the KGB, they do military intelligence. Theft of military technology, gathering data on movements and other developments like troop levels in Iraq or deployments of hostile military, is their purview. Also created and ran one of the first intelligence service run paramilitary units, Spetsnaz GRU, Russia's answer to the SAS, which recently got resurrected after being disbanded in the last decade. Based in Khodinka, west Moscow. The new "aquarium" as they call their offices.

Regarding the "adults world" nickname, back in the Cold War, across the Lubyanka square was one of Moscow's biggest children's toy stores, "Children's world"....and when you have the KGB nearby, that legendary Russian black humor took affect.

Miss Vince Flynn. One of the only American spy fiction writers to avoid the mistake which this thread focuses on.

Side note. A small "benefit" of the Russian intervention in Syria is that their intelligence services come out to play as Vlad goes to bat for Assad. Breaks down that heavily cultivated mask of secrecy that they've worked their fingers to the bone in cultivating.
In this case, it's the boys from GRU (military advisors) and those fellows from SVR ZASLON Spetsnaz.

https://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.co...

This post served me well. I was trying to look up the new equivalent of the KGB. I went to WIKI and read. I thought I knew so a few days later I started writing SVU. Anyway, I read Samuels post, thank goodness, before it was published. Then while playing with MS word I found this really nifty tool that allowed me to change all of the SVUs to SVRs. Another reason to come here and read.

Jack wrote: "This post served me well. I was trying to look up the new equivalent of the KGB. I went to WIKI and read. I thought I knew so a few days later I started writing SVU. Anyway, I read Samuels post, th..."

Glad to have been of some help :)

Back in the USSR, foreign and domestic intelligence was under one roof, the KGB.

(GRU did military intelligence and as a result, was forced to fight one of the greatest inter-service rivalries in history with the KGB wanting to put them out of business and gain even more power by getting their purview as well.)

Here in the west though, the system has always been having two different organizations. One is solely responsible for foreign intelligence gathering, while the other takes care of domestic security. SIS and MI5 for instance.

When the USSR came crashing down, the GRU survived while the KGB was torn in half with the foreign intelligence wing becoming the SVR, while the domestic side was FSB. Such a separation of powers however has been irrelevant with the former FSB director general Vladimir Putin as president.

Unlike some politicians in the west, he's more than happy to make use of the apparatus he has under his control and develop their capabilities even further (ZASLON for instance is currently busy running around Syria shooting rebels and will extract Assad if things go belly up for him, and also does disinformation and media manipulation to sow discord using an army of INTERNET trolls among other methods).
Same friendly service....but now it's provided by more than one organization!

Paul wrote: "Samuel wrote: "Handy Guide for the three relevant Russian intelligence agencies and their equivalents.

1) SVR (foreign intelligence service) Russia's CIA/SIS. Does foreign intelligence gathering ..."

Perhaps. The fellows at the SVR haven't got their cyber claws on their wikipedia profile yet though! ;)

Anyway, while wikipedia profiles are actually pretty satisfactory and give a solid overview, it's always good to get a wide variety of sources. Like these.

THE UNHOLY TRINITY:

http://fas.org/irp/world/russia/svr/i...
http://fas.org/irp/world/russia/fsb/i...
http://fas.org/irp/world/russia/gru/i...

The SVR, doomed to be forever confused with the FSB:
http://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-ag...
http://www.bbc.com/news/10447308

The GRU. Recent history and how their director general who died recently brought a war horse that had been foolishly maimed by incompetents back from the dead:

http://warontherocks.com/2016/01/we-d...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-...


ZASLON. The big guns, the heavy hitters, the tip of Putin's blade that most of the Western public doesn't even know exists. Russia's cut-throat answer to the company's Special Activities Division:

http://warisboring.com/articles/zaslo...
http://www.businessinsider.com/russia...
https://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.co...
http://russia-insider.com/en/military...

You know, I think I might do a thread like this on this for the People's Republic Of China. Although with them, things are much simpler due to them using one service for foreign intelligence gathering and domestic security. Will have to think about it but I think I'll try.

Samuel wrote: "You know, I think I might do a thread like this on this for the People's Republic Of China. Although with them, things are much simpler due to them using one service for foreign intelligence gather..."

My god...couldn't resist.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Is it easier for writers to just lump foreign intelligence services together for convenience? Read a book recently which makes the FSB=SVR single agency error in a big way. At the very least, the writer had the dignity to make most of the action take place in Russia, and the op that was being run, internal-security, the actual responsibility of the FSB.

Samuel wrote: "Samuel wrote: "You know, I think I might do a thread like this on this for the People's Republic Of China. Although with them, things are much simpler due to them using one service for foreign inte..."

I could do this for different countries now and then. Maybe France. Or Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Lots of possibilities.
I mean the thread on China is one of my best ones yet.

For our group members who wish to write a Russian story. Here's a lovely peer reviewed journal article about inter-service rivalries in the Russian Federation's intelligence community. They have gotten much more complex than the old GRU vs KGB vs PARTY triangle in the Soviet Era. With the KGB cut in two, they've managed to make things even more cut-throat. http://www.ecfr.eu/publications/summa...

It would be very interesting to read a novel, or a historical outline, from an up-to-date writing about China's intelligence service. Since it's one big office, finding out about its domestic and foreign ploys, and comparing them to Russia's SVR, and perhaps to the CIA would be educational. Although it may insult the parties talked about. Anyway, good luck. It it's written, I will read it.

Well, I tried to draw up my own brief summary of the PRC intelligence community on another thread in this group. It's more of a jumping up point for any group member which wishes to write a story about China. Hence it lacks information on the more recent operation that they've run.
However, it does summarize the four organizations which make up the PRC intelligence gathering apparatus. The first does foreign intelligence/counter intelligence, the second is more of a de-clawed bureaucracy that nonetheless still has a few tricks up its sleeve, the third concerns itself with military matters/technical espionage while the fourth are the Chinese equivalent to NSA, albeit with a officially more limited mandate.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Back to the topic at hand. Took delivery of a book that makes the FSB=SVR error. In the story, it basically gives the FSB the KGB mandate, that of conducting foreign and domestic intelligence work under one roof.

However, surprisingly enough, this one is a little more forgivable than other books that make the same error. This is because almost all the action takes place on the sovereign territory of the Russian federation and has the FSB doing what they're actually assigned to do in real life. Domestic security and counter-terrorist work, not foreign intelligence. Thus, my suspension of disbelief was merely bent not snapped.

Anyone read this book? Hear that it's the first spy thriller to feature an accurate portrayal of the SVR.

Oh. turns out there is a sequel.

I have read both. They are absolutely fantastic. SVR is described inside and out by former Agency case officer who, if memory recalls, was assigned to Russian station.

And regarding Matthew's books, both are more of a classic espionage novel as opposed to military thriller. Maybe it bends a bit more to modern spy thriller in some aspects.

They sound very interesting!

I have read both. The novels are in a present time. Matthew's insight was from experience, like picking a time, an experience, a person, a place, and enlarging them to fiction. I'm sure much the outline of his life as a CIA agent is contained in these novels. Spy novels do not have to include lots of killing. Contemporary espionage is sneaky, rotten, and cunning, whether it's economic, political, or military. I think he is very up-to-date in these novels.
Matthew, write some more!

https://toinformistoinfluence.com/201...

FSB to merge and get new name. Maybe

J.T. wrote: "https://toinformistoinfluence.com/201...

FSB to merge and get new name. Maybe"

Interesting. Going back to the KGB model with all responsibilities under one roof. Let's wait and see though. Current set up seems to be doing fine for Vladimir as of now.

Will make it easy for fiction writers.

Mark Greaney made an SVR/FSB merger a plot point in Command Authority. He had the FSB murder the director general of the SVR in a massive bomb blast due to the main antagonist being opposed tooth and nail by the spymaster. A Reichstag fire incident of sorts.

The new Brad Thor book has one of the great inter-service rivalries of espionage returning with a vengeance. GRU goes up against the political/non-military intelligence counterparts in the SVR, with a female SVR officer helping her former American lover Scott Harvath completely wreck a GRU operation.

This book features the GRU and FSB tangentially. They get used as a pawn by a Russian cyber criminal to kill the main character.

A group member said the GRU prominently features in this novel. The main active antagonist is an assassin that works as the GRU director General's hatchet man and is used to expedite a scheme to truly throw the Middle East into chaos.

J.T. wrote: "https://toinformistoinfluence.com/201...

FSB to merge and get new name. Maybe"

Thriller writers might rejoice. Vladimir might have proposed the legislation to reunite the halves into one whole. The SVR and FSB may be dead. And if so, please, welcome the MGB........ that being said, there's a possibility it's a hoax so don't break the Vodka out just yet......
http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/09/21/p...

Samuel wrote: "J.T. wrote: "https://toinformistoinfluence.com/201...

FSB to merge and get new name. Maybe"

Thriller writers rejoice. Vladimir has ..."

Russia's most popular daily, Kommersant, broke news of a story that, if true, could have consequences that last far beyond this latest round of Duma reshuffling.

Russian President Vladimir Putin, according to Kommersant, is planning a major overhaul of the country’s security services. The Russian daily reported that the idea of the reforms is to merge the Foreign Intelligence Service, or SVR, with the Federal Security Service, or FSB, which keeps an eye on domestic affairs. This new supersized secret service will be given a new name: the Ministry of State Security. If that sounds familiar, it should — this was the name given to the most powerful and feared of Joseph Stalin’s secret services, from 1943 to 1953. And if its combination of foreign espionage and domestic surveillance looks familiar, well, it should: In all but name, we are seeing a resurrection of the Committee for State Security — otherwise known as the KGB.

The KGB, it should be remembered, was not a traditional security service in the Western sense — that is, an agency charged with protecting the interests of a country and its citizens. Its primary task was protecting the regime. Its activities included hunting down spies and dissidents and supervising media, sports, and even the church. It ran operations both inside and outside the country, but in both spheres the main task was always to protect the interests of whoever currently resided in the Kremlin. With this new agency, we’re seeing a return to form — one that’s been a long time in the making.

There was a time, not so long ago, when Russian leaders sought to create a depoliticized security structure. When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, the reform of the KGB became an immediate, pressing issue. The agency was not reliably under control: The chairman of the KGB at the time, Vladimir Kryuchkov, had helped mastermind the military coup attempt aimed at overthrowing Mikhail Gorbachev that August. But new President Boris Yeltsin had no clear ideas about just how he wanted to reform the KGB, so he simply decided to break it into pieces.

The largest department of the KGB — initially called the Ministry of Security; then, later, the Federal Counterintelligence Service (FSK); then, even later, the FSB — was given responsibility solely for counter-espionage and counterterrorism operations. The KGB’s former foreign intelligence directorate was transformed into a new agency called the Foreign Intelligence Service, or SVR. The division of the KGB responsible for electronic eavesdropping and cryptography became the Federal Agency of Government Communications and Information, or FAPSI. A relatively obscure directorate of the KGB that guarded secret underground facilities continued its functions under a new name: the Main Directorate of Special Programs of the President, or GUSP. The KGB branch that had been responsible for protecting Soviet leaders was renamed the Federal Protective Service, or FSO, and the Soviet border guards were transformed into an independent Federal Border Service, or FPS.

The main successor of the KGB amid this alphabet soup of changes was the FSK. But this new counterintelligence agency was stripped of its predecessor’s overseas intelligence functions. The agency no longer protected Russian leaders and was deprived of its secret bunkers, which fell under the president’s direct authority. It maintained only a nominal presence in the army. In its new incarnation, the agency’s mission was pruned back to something resembling Britain’s MI5: to fight terrorism and corruption.

But Yeltsin’s team never formed a clear strategy for how to transform what had once been the secret services of a totalitarian state into the intelligence community of a democracy.Yeltsin’s team never formed a clear strategy for how to transform what had once been the secret services of a totalitarian state into the intelligence community of a democracy. In a 1993 executive decree, Yeltsin lamented, reeling off a list of acronyms for various incarnations of the security agencies, that “the system of the Cheka-OGPU-NKVD-MGB-NGKB-KGB-MB turned out to be incapable of being reformed. Reorganization efforts in recent years were external and cosmetic in nature.… The system of political investigation is preserved and may easily be restored.”

It was a prescient comment: By the mid-1990s, various component parts and functions of the old KGB had begun to make their way back to the FSK, like the liquid metal of the killer T-1000 android in Terminator 2: Judgment Day, slowly reconstituting itself after having been blown to bits.

First to return was the power to conduct domestic investigations. In November 1994, Yeltsin restored the investigative directorate of the FSK and placed the infamous Lefortovo prison, which had once held political prisoners and had been used for interrogations that involved torture, back under its remit. The next year saw a crucial name change: The FSK was rechristened the FSB. The shift from “K” (kontrrazvedka, or counterintelligence) to “B” (bezopasnost, or security) was more than cosmetic; with the new name came a broad mandate for the FSB to become the guardian of “security” for Russia.

Over the course of the next five years, the FSB would win back many of its old functions. It would once again be given responsibility for pursuing dissidents, who were now branded “extremists,” and would be given its own foreign intelligence directorate, duplicating the SVR’s.

When Putin came to power in 2000, he initially appeared to follow the route laid out by his predecessor, Yeltsin. His main concern, at least at first, seemed to be minimizing competition between the secret services; as a result, in 2003, he allowed the FSB to absorb responsibility for the border troops and FAPSI — the electronic intelligence agency — and gave the service expanded powers over the army and police.

But the president, himself a former KGB officer, was too taken in by KGB myths about the role of the Cheka in Russian society to be satisfied with the FSB being a mere security organ. He was determined to see it become something bigger. Putin encouraged a steady growth in the agency’s influence. The president began using the FSB as his main recruitment base for filling key positions in government and state-controlled business; its agents were expected to define and personify the ideology of the new Russia. When FSB Director Nikolai Patrushev, in December 2000, called his officers Russia’s “new ‘nobility’” — a nickname that agents in the KGB could have hardly dreamed of being applied to them — he was taking a cue from his boss.

By the late 2000s, it was clear that Putin had bigger changes in store, but it wasn’t yet clear whether those changes would elevate the FSB or destroy it. Putin began making it apparent that he wasn’t happy with the agency’s effectiveness. In 2007, he asked another service, an antidrug agency led by his personal friend Viktor Cherkesov, to look into the FSB’s dealings, in the hope, it seems, of bringing it down. The attack on the agency failed utterly — and Putin was forced to fire his friend. Then Putin launched a new agency and gave it enormous powers: The Investigative Committee, a sort of Russian FBI, was tasked with conducting the most sensitive investigations, from the murders of Kremlin critics like Anna Politkovskaya and Boris Nemtsov to prosecuting political activists. This was accompanied by an expansion of the Internal Troops — army units charged with operating within the country — and the launch of a new Department to Counter Extremism, housed within the Interior Ministry. Finally, this year, Putin created the National Guard, which is a massive and armed-to-the-teeth military force tasked with fighting internal dissent.

Throughout the 2000s, and for much of the 2010s, it looked as if Putin’s response to concerns about FSB ineffectiveness would be simply to create new agencies. With this weekend’s news, that strategy appears to have come to an abrupt end. If the Kommersant story is true, it would mean Putin has finally made up his mind about the fate of the FSB: It is to once again be restored to its former glory, as the most powerful security organ in the country by far.

There’s some method at work here. It’s been clear for some time that Putin is getting nervous about his political future. With elections pending in 2018, he’s started selective repressions, placed governors and officials in jail, and removed old friends from key positions, in moves seemingly aimed at what his role model Yuri Andropov once called “improv[ing] labor discipline.” Efforts to strengthen the security services fit within this pattern of centralizing control; what’s new is that he’s decided the best way to strengthen them is to merge them into one gigantic service, with a fearsome name and a reputation that reminds any would-be dissidents of the most frightening days of the Soviet era.

At the same time, the FSB has lost a certain something in this transition: Gone is any talk about a “new nobility,” and the agency is no longer being used as a recruitment base for other sectors of the government and economy. Putin has made it clear that what he needs is an instrument, pure and simple, to protect his own regime — just like the Politburo had its instrument in the KGB.

Ironically, however, it seems likely that the announced reforms will not actually improve FSB effectiveness — if anything, they’ll do the opposite. The agency will now be forced to spend resources to eliminate duplication (over the years, the FSB developed its own strong foreign intelligence branch, and it’s not clear how it will merge this with the SVR’s, for instance), to find new positions for generals who are out of jobs, and to deal with renaming departments, rewriting regulations, and the various other forms of bureaucratic chaos that accompany big mergers. That could paralyze the new mega-siloviki for an undetermined period — just at the time Putin needs it most.

Samuel wrote: "Samuel wrote: "J.T. wrote: "https://toinformistoinfluence.com/201...

FSB to merge and get new name. Maybe"

Thriller writers rejoice..."

Well, there is one constant. The GRU endures. It survived Stalin, the breakup of the USSR and it gets to munch on popcorn while its civilian counterparts face getting reformatted for the second time in a row.

Samuel wrote: "Samuel wrote: "Samuel wrote: "J.T. wrote: "https://toinformistoinfluence.com/201...

FSB to merge and get new name. Maybe"

Thriller ..."

On the other hand, Putin has just offered the Duma Speaker the directorship of the SVR. So perhaps the MGB formation is a false alarm after all.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-rus...

Outright confirmed. SVR and FSB are not going to be subject to spinal fusion surgery after all. Putin says so and his regime's mouthpiece is reporting the fact.
https://www.rt.com/politics/360320-sv...

Samuel wrote: "Outright confirmed. SVR and FSB are not going to be subject to spinal fusion surgery after all. Putin says so and his regime's mouthpiece is reporting the fact.
https://www.rt.com/politics/360320-..."

That being said, the man in question who is being promoted isn't the sharpest tool in the shed unlike the current SVR director. So it could be Vlad is setting up a disposable drone to get axed......must wait and see.

Another source. Reports aren't being confirmed or denied. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-...

Anyway, I've taken a look at a new book. The GRU are in the process of doing what they do best, namely cleaning their target's crock with a most interesting deniable asset.

I could charitably describe the asset as "international man of mystery". Lets just say it's creative of the GRU director general to employ an American for paramilitary/direct action operations that Spetsnaz GRU does not have the tact in accomplishing.

Checked the news again on the MGB situation. half the reports say the former Duma Speaker is the new head of the SVR, while the other half are saying the FSB and SVR have entered a union.......#Disinformation?!?!?!?!?!

Profile on the man who now has control over the ZASLON unit and one of the finest intelligence gathering operations money can buy.

http://rbth.com/politics_and_society/...