The Patrick Hamilton Appreciation Society discussion

A thread to talk about absolutely anything.... the weather, your mood, music, recipes, jokes etc. The choice is yours.

Good idea, Nigeyb. I was wondering if there was a place for more general chat anywhere and here it is!

Relaxing today with a classical music CD and a Highland Fling of the Mitford variety - very cultural!

Thanks Sarah.

Sarah wrote: "Relaxing today with a classical music CD and a Highland Fling of the Mitford variety - very cultural! "

That sounds pretty idyllic. I envy you.

My daughter has just got back from a sleepover where she got less than two hours sleep. She's gone straight to bed and I'm due to take her ice skating in a couple of hours. Another chance to hone my interpersonal skills.

Seasons greetings to everyone here at
The Patrick Hamilton Appreciation Society.

Here's to a wonderful holiday period - and best wishes for a splendid 2014.

Happy reading one and all.

How do others feel about whether you should persevere with a book if you're not enjoying it or go on to the bitter end.

I usually read detective crime novels of the golden age variety, interspersed occasionally with anything else that takes my fancy.

When I joined GoodReads I thought it might be a good opportunity to widen my horizons a bit, so I joined a few groups that sounded interesting.

Some of my forays into different genres have been very successful - Nancy Mitford for example. I can see how it links in with golden age detective fiction because of the setting and social aspects and I want to go further now and read some biographies and non-fiction social history titles about the period.

But I've recently read three books that I really didn't enjoy. I persevered with two of them but the last one I've just decided to abandon - partly because my reading list is now getting out of hand and why waste time on something I'm not enjoying when I've got so many other books to try.

What do others think?

I share your dilemma, Sarah. I feel that an unfinished book is a failure on my part, but I have dozens of books with Post-It Notes, till receipts, utility bills and other improvised markers lying all over the house, both fiction and non-fiction.

I've made up my mind to get less precious about this, however. I keep finding new leads, tips and recommendations, especially from this site and there is so much I want to read, and to re-read, that I will have to be ruthless about it.

On the other hand, I can hope that visitors will assume that the improvised bookmarks are highlighting important passages and references for quotation in my upcoming multi-volume series, "All Books Ever Written: An Appraisal" and treat me as a literary sage as a consequence.

Alas, friends visiting know me better than that!

I never feel the need to finish a book if I'm not enjoying it. I'll usually give it a hundred pages.

There's so many wonderful books out there, so why spend time ploughing through something that you're not enjoying?

I have yet to get to the end of any book by Virginia Woolf - despite attempting three different books by her.

You know my passion for Dickens, yet I have been unable to get into Our Mutual Friend despite trying hard for 15 years.

It's Dickens though, so I owe it to myself to finish it.

Beevor's Battle of Kursk's 300 remaining pages and a history of Greece and Troy's 400 remaining pages, however, are likely to remain unloved and unsullied by my fingerprints. Life's too short.

Novels that are both demanding (a euphemism for 'difficult') and not a lot of fun, I tend to put back on the shelf in the pious hope that I shall try them again, when I feel more capable. In other words, I consider the failure to be mine. Some novels have spent many, many years on the shelf...

Novels that I don't think are going to be much good (for whatever reason), I simply give up on and discard. I consider the failure to be the author's...rather arrogant, I know, but there are plenty more authors in the sea.

That's a very good assessment Peter. I still have a volume of Ulysses that I will try and read (for the umpteenth time) one of these days. I find it hard to imagine ever having the patience to persevere with it though. I think I can also now acknowledge it's just not for me. Like everything that pushes the boundaries, I'm glad that experimental Modernist literature is out there, pushing the form, but I respond more readily to simplicity and accessibility.

I have yet to read a book by George Orwell that I have not enjoyed. Could his famous six rules for writing, taken from “Politics and the English Language” be part of the explanation?

Here are the six rules...

(i) Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.
(ii) Never use a long word where a short one will do.
(iii) If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.
(iv) Never use the passive where you can use the active.
(v) Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word, or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.
(vi) Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.

Orwell's rules undoubtedly provide sound advice for any new writer, but most 'demanding' novels are not demanding because they use long words, foreign phrases, or hackneyed metaphors. They are challenging because they are working at an intellectual level which I can only hope to reach on a good day, if at all. Mostly not at all. But I refuse to give in! So, like my copy of Ulysses, they continue to gather dust, waiting for the good day, the bright-eyed and bushy-tailed day, that is eternally 'tomorrow'.

Peter wrote: "..most 'demanding' novels...are challenging because they are working at an intellectual level which I can only hope to reach on a good day, if at all."

Some certainly. I'm not sure I'd use the phrase "intellectual level" which to me implies some sort of innate level of braininess. It's just that some books require a classical education or an understanding of, say, ellipsis, or latin, or what not. I've read a few books that have required a separate book to help make the author's meaning or intention clear.

I'm currently reading Sword of Honour by Evelyn Waugh. It's all very easy to follow and, like all his books, wonderfully well written, however each page has a footnote or two that elaborates on a Latin phrase or historical detail. I would contrast that type of book, with say Ulysses with its stream-of-consciousness sections, experimental prose, puns, parodies, and allusions, and which really does need a paragraph by paragraph explanation to help the lay person through it. I don't see anyone who cannot instantly discern its meaning as intellectually deficient. Far from it. They're to be applauded for having a go.

Indeed this article, titled, '"Ulysses", Why you should read this book' states...

It is true that full-time literature students are in the best position to read "Ulysses": it's our job, with tons of time and a support staff standing by. I had the luxury of a "Ulysses" seminar with ten other undergrads, a professor with a Joyce tattoo on his back, and a pub with Beamish on tap. That's the ideal, but you really don't need all that. The beer is important, but all you really need is a clean, well-lit room of one's own, a copy of "Ulysses", Don Gifford's "Ulysses Annotated", Harry Blamires's "The New Bloomsday Book" for chapter summaries, Joseph Campbell for some colour commentary, and some spare time.

Yep, three extra books just to read one book.

Thanks for your responses. I'm going to think positively from now on - when a book doesn't grab me and I'd rather move on to something else I'm going to mentally move it to the 'try again later' shelf, rather than the 'abandoned' shelf.

Just a quick one to wish everyone only as happy a holiday season as they might wish for themselves.

Here's to 2014 being at least one digit better than 2013...

Your good wishes are appreciated, reciprocated and extended to all.

In the words of Tiny Tim at the conclusion of A Christmas Carol, "God bless us, every one" (other deities, idols, prophets, seers and sages and the option of none at all are available).

David

If I'm disliking a book I'll give it 30-100 pages, depending, before I cut and run. The 100 pages would be for a book that has received good reviews, or is an established, so-called high quality author. If I just can't stand the author's voice, or the writing style is beyond irritating, that would be the 30 pages. This goes for fiction and nonfiction.

I'm aborting a lot more books than I used to. (But I'm also reading more books overall than I used to.) I have an aborted shelf.

If I own a book and abort it, I'll give it away. No sense keeping it around.

Nigeyb wrote: "I have yet to get to the end of any book by Virginia Woolf - despite attempting three different books by her. "

Interesting! I just read my first Woolf, her first novel. It's before she got into modernism, I guess. It seemed pretty straightforward to me - although I'm sure there were levels of understanding I was missing.

Coincidentally, I've just read a paragraph in Barbara Kingsolver's 'The Lacuna' which chimes with the theme of literary perseverance.

"A few were all right. Zozobra, and also Romancero Gitano, poems by a young man whi loved gypsies. Cervantes held promise, but had to be puzzled out in some ancient kind of Spanish. One week only with Don Quixote, before turning him in to be locked up again and exchanged for a new week's pile, had felt like a peek through a keyhole".

The Stooges' 'Funhouse' is one of my all-time favourite albums, but there's times when I'd MUCH rather listen to Dean Martin, particularly the sides he recorded for Capitol Records.

I'm a massive fan of the collages of Raoul Hausmann, the photomontages of John Heartfield and the paintings of George Grosz and Otto Dix, but there are times when I prefer Vermeer.

Books are the same. I can't imagine any books, or any writers, that would appeal to me in every mood, which is why I very rarely dismiss a book after just one aborted attempt. In most cases, the fault doesn't lie with the book itself... it's everything to do with my frame of mind when I approach the book.

I've put many books down, unable to sink a single tooth in, only to pick it back up a few months or a few years later, and absolutely love it.

Happy new year.


This thread has become a font of wisdom. Thanks everyone.

For the first time in my life I am finding it harder to shift the post-Christmas paunch. Usually by upping the running and exercise I could lose weight fairly easily - not any more it seems.

I've just started experimenting with an intermittent fasting diet. I've dipped into a book called The Fast Diet: The Simple Secret of Intermittent Fasting: Lose Weight, Stay Healthy, Live Longer which (not surprisingly) has some quite compelling "evidence" about addiitonal benefits of intermittent fasting. I have a couple of friends who have told me it's worked for them.

Anyway, on Monday and Tuesday this week, I barely ate any carbs, drank plenty of water, had no alcohol, and whilst not taking the calorie intake down to ridiculous levels, I did eat about 60-70% of what I might normally have and I did feel much better.

Since 27th December I have stopped eating between meals, except - if I feel peckish - some fruit and I've managed to drop down from 83 kg (13 stone) to 79.5 Kg (12.5 stone). I'm aiming to get to, and stick at 77 kg (c12 stone).

What works for you?

It's the first diet that I've ever heard of that seems to be both easy to achieve and based on pretty sound research. There are other benefits in addition to weight loss - reduced cholesterol and some immune system boosts (can't remember the exact chemicals without looking in the book again). Seems to be a win-win-win situation.

For the first time, I also now have a far greater awareness of the kcal of various foods.

Oh good, go take my poll now.

https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/9...

Giving up most carbs would be a huge struggle for me. Carbs and vegetables comprise most of my diet. I'm not a big protein eater. I've lost most of my sweet tooth, so that's good.

My problem with diets is that although you can be good and follow it while you're losing weight, unless you make a permanent change in your eating habits eventually the weight will start to creep back on again and it can be quite a demoralising cycle.
Possibly getting back in shape after a specific event like Christmas where we just overate temporarily could be an exception though.

I shed about 15kg between Feb and June 2012. Sensible portion size, lots of walking and powering a bike to work a couple of times a week, inspired by Football Fans In Training:

The intro:
http://aberdeenvoice.com/2012/03/foot...

The outcome:
http://aberdeenvoice.com/2012/04/foot...

That's me second right back row.

I may have slipped back a little. One does in that post-festive time when there are vats of Quality Street in every corner of the dwelling, but I still try to fit in a couple of miles walking every day, and that pedometer is my nagging friend.

David wrote: "that pedometer is my nagging friend"

Walking is something that could be incorporated into everyday life on a permanent basis, isn't it. How many paces do you need to do to make a difference, David?

I do try to incorporate it into the daily routine, for example by walking a couple of extra blocks to pick up a sandwich at lunchtime, walking the 4 miles home from the football last night and so on.

We were told by our coaches that under 5000 steps per day pointed to a sedentary lifestyle, so I like to get at least 5000 on the counter daily.

In the 6 days this week, I've averaged about 8000/day, but I've also done about 40 miles on my bike.

It's difficult to quantify, and not always easy to get out (weather, tiredness, Stalinist editorial deadlines to meet etc) but just knowing how good I felt about working hard to get healthier makes me determined to continue.

If you're thinking of getting a pedometer, the Silva one here does the job (I'm on my second one).

http://silva.se/products/sport/ex-step

^ I am thinking of a pedometer and will get myself a Silva. Thanks David. 15 kg - that's very inspiring. Some reviews of The Fast Diet: The Simple Secret of Intermittent Fasting: Lose Weight, Stay Healthy, Live Longer are from people who have also incorporated plenty of walking. It seems to me to be the most natural form of exercise there is. I've read that now smoking is in steep decline, the chair is the biggest killer in the western world.

Sarah, I agree that it's easy to get into a cycle of loss/gain/loss/gain that's why I generally think diets are counterproductive and the key is good habits e.g. no eating between meals, making healthy choices when it's meal time, plenty of water, no snacking, and stay active. It is really that simple - certainly to maintain a healthy weight. I just need something short-term to shift a few stubborn kgs.

Lobstergirl, I've done your poll and went for "Three square meals a day", though was not sure about the square aspect of the description - does that mean substantial or just sensible? I assumed the latter. Even though at the moment I am trying to eat smaller portions and, when I do bulk it up, it's with lots of vegetables or salad, and any between meal snacks only being fruit. I hope that helps. Is it just personal interest or are you doing some research?

I have an Omron pedometer and it goes everywhere I go. I live in a very walkable neighborhood and everything I do involves walking. Today's errands put me at 5,041 steps. I used to try to get in 10,000 steps/day but it's actually not easy because it requires so much time.

Nigeyb wrote: "Lobstergirl, I've done your poll and went for "Three square meals a day", though was not sure about the square aspect of the description - does that mean substantial or just sensible? I assumed the latter. Even though at the moment I am trying to eat smaller portions and, when I do bulk it up, it's with lots of vegetables or salad, and any between meal snacks only being fruit. I hope that helps. Is it just personal interest or are you doing some research? "

Yeah, "three square meals" is pretty much a cliched way of saying sensible, balanced plates of food. E.g. a protein, green vegetable, and starch. Or protein/vegetable/whole grain/fruit.

The poll is purely based on my own personal curiosity. Technically polls are supposed to be book-related or they will get deleted, but I see a lot that are non book-related.

^ Thanks Lobstergirl - "three square meals" definitely best covers my current approach. That said...

If anyone is interested, I have finished The Fast Diet: The Simple Secret of Intermittent Fasting: Lose Weight, Stay Healthy, Live Longer. Here's a short review..

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I'm going to give it a try. I'll update my review in late March/early April once I've done it for three months.

I already include audio books in my 'currently reading' list, but what about books I listen to on the radio? I've recently listened to Summoned by Bells which was on Radio 4 Extra - does that mean I've now 'read' it? It seems a bit of a cheat somehow - what do others think?

^ Hello Sarah,


I would say if you listen to an audio edition and it's unabridged then it's definitely fine.

If it's abridged then perhaps not.

And a radio dramatisation is getting more tenuous (I included one last year and decided it was a cheat and went back to read the book).

That said, it's not like anyone is going to check so it's really whatever feels right to you.

Perhaps you could consider your motivation for reading?

For me it's personal enjoyment and the numerous life insights I get from the books - logging them on GoodReads plays to my desire to track and log activities and have a sense of organisation but about 98% of my reading life was BGR (before Good Reads) and most of what I have ever read is lost in the mists of my less than reliable memory.

So, to summarise, it doesn't really matter :-))

Nigeyb wrote: "So, to summarise, it doesn't really matter :-)) "

How right you are, Nigeyb! Sometimes I just take these things too seriously.

I think I'll make up my own rules. If I just happen to catch something on the radio (which rarely happens) or if it's a dramatisation or abridgment it won't count, but if I've sought it out for a particular reason it will.

For example I've been meaning to read some of Betjeman's poetry, but I do prefer having poetry read to me rather than reading it myself on the page. Summoned by Bells was read by Betjeman himself in full, so I think that would be one I could record.

As always you've reminded me that the important thing is to enjoy the experience rather than get into some sort of point scoring.

Sarah, there are excellent poetry recordings on Spotify if you have it.

I love Hardy's During Wind and Rain, as it sums up, for me at least, the constant fatalist/determinist outlook of his novels.

Hearing it being read by an emotional trained voice, however, illustrates even further dimensions.

Thanks David. I've only recently discovered Spotify and, still finding my way around, didn't realise that spoken word is also on there - that's such a bonus!

How general can you be in a search - do you need to know the name of a poem, or can you just browse somehow?

Just search on the author's name. That'll bring up all that Spotify has. You can then select what you want, relax, close your eyes and imagine Richard Burton's in the room, reading his well-thumbed copy of Under Milk Wood to you.

David wrote: "close your eyes and imagine Richard Burton's in the room, reading his well-thumbed copy of Under Milk Wood to you."

Now there's a lovely thought.

Thanks again David - I can't wait to explore!

Love letter to the once and future bookstores of New York--with a short connection of interest to Nigeyb.
Sigh. Rizzoli's is always top of the list for my NY excursions...

http://m.newyorker.com/online/blogs/b...

There's absolutely no way I'll ever be able to take Record Store Day seriously without Book Store Day.

Fab, if depressing, article Miss M.

Totally agree Mark.

The article made me think of various Woody Allen films that feature scenes in NYC book shops. Sad to consider the decline of the book shop.

I haven't read the article yet, as I'm still at work. A quick glance through it, though, and it's absolutely on my weekend reading list. Many thanks for the tip, Miss M.

As much as I love a dusty old UBS to get lost in the stacks in, I really do miss the glamorous NY stores...

Rizzoli is close to my heart since, for a very short time in the early 80's, there was a DC branch. My BFF from high school and I were both really into foreign languages and used to travel to Georgetown (more faded glamour) to discover new stuff. More 'those were the days'...

I signed the petition. Big bummer. I was last at the store last April. I have a hard time believing Manhattan can't support such a store - a city of big bucks and serious shoppers. It's sad to think about that building coming down, too. I can't see that there's anything wrong with the building.

NYC went from being a city driven by culture to being a city driven by wealth. Simple as.

That, coupled with another massive change...

As Fran Lebowitz observed, "Present-day New York has been made to attract people who didn’t like New York. That’s how we get a zillion tourists here, especially American tourists, who never liked New York. Now they like New York. What does that mean? Does that mean they’ve suddenly become much more sophisticated? No. It means that New York has become more like the places they come from."

Argue that!

^ Based on my two visits to NYC, the first in the late 1980s and the second in the late 1990s I completely agree Mark. The first time I visited I felt I was on the set of Taxi Driver. It felt quite a wild place and very interesting.

On my second visit it felt very clean, very corporate and far more generic. I still had a good time but made a point of spending a couple of days in Brooklyn which felt far more like the New York of my previous visit.

Fifteen or so years on from my last visit I can only imagine that, and like London in many ways, property prices and gentrification have probably made Manhattan the preserve of well paid young professionals and Wall Street bankers etc with the amazing mavericks that feature in (amongst many other books) the work of Joseph Mitchell now just a distant memory.

By the by, and talking of old New York, has anyone else ever watched Gary Weis' 1979 film "80 Blocks From Tiffany's" ...



Talk about another world. This is the world of "The Warriors" times ten. Really amazing to think of New York as a barren depopulated waste land in the space of my lifetime. Here's the trailer that gives you a good idea of what it's like...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71yLEf...

And changing tack slightly, but with American urban wastelands in mind, I strongly recommend Julien Temple's film about Detroit. A documentary about the decay and industrial collapse of America’s fourth largest city. You can see the whole thing here...

http://documentarystorm.com/requiem-f...

All his documentaries are brilliant.

"Oil City Confidential" his doc about Dr Feelgood is probably my favourite.

Wow, I just watched the trailer for Temple's 'London: the Modern Babylon.' I really need to get/watch that!
Thanks for all the great links, Nigeyb, I need to do some browsing...

^ I have "London: the Modern Babylon" on DVD waiting for the right moment to watch it.. I got given it this Xmas. I daresay it's also online somewhere or another. He never seems to put a foot wrong (well perhaps "Absolute Beginners" but that was a very long time ago). His documentaries are always something special.

Ha - I actually ordered a copy of Absolute Beginners a couple of months ago to re-watch after all these years...haven't gotten there yet. Do love 'Have you ever had it blue?'

I do indeed. In fact I think the whole soundtrack is splendid.

I have never actually seen the whole film - just extended clips on YouTube so it's a bit unfair for me to suggest it's not good. I feel I can confidently say it's not as good as it could and should have been given the source material.

I'll be very interested to hear what you make of it when you rewatch it. I should get it myself and give it a proper view as it never seems to come up on TV, and I should see it at least once.

Nigeyb wrote: "I have never actually seen the whole film..."

I saw the whole film once, in its entirety, when it was first released. Since then, I've watched Eddie Tudorpole's performance of 'Ted Ain't Dead' nearly eight thousand times.