Jane Austen discussion
Emma Group Read
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Chapters 1-6:
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Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator
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Jan 12, 2014 08:55AM
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I am just at the end of chapter 1, but I think there's already something to talk about. In this chapter the main charaters are introduced: Emma and her father, Mrs. Weston and Mr. Knightley. Beside the description of each character (that I love), I really like how Jane Austen uses Miss Taylor marriage to display Emma, Mr. Knightley and Mr. Woodhouse dispositions. Mr. Woodhouse is represented with all his paranoia and fears and his unreasonableness. Mr. Knightley establishes himself as the "voice of common sense" and he will remain so till the end of the novel. But I think that this scene allows us to gain more information about Emma than the other two.
Her reactions to Miss Taylor marriage show on one side her good nature: she is genuinely sorry to lose her companion but at the same time she tries to cheer up her father. On the other side however she says "An you have forgotten one matter of joy to me and a very considerable one - that I made the match myself".
The fact that this thought "may comfort her for any thing" reveals a very self centered nature.
The question is: did Jane Austen did it with purpose?
I think that she intentionally pictured her heroine in a way that immediately results a bit annoying to the reader, as if she wanted us to expect her to fail sooner or later. She immediately brought the reader on Mr. Knightley's side (clever move).
At the same time she pictures Emma as an affectionate daughter, so that we can see that there's something good in her.
I feel like Jane Austen is saying to the reader "here we are, I put you in front of a character that, if represented a bit more harshly, could have been a Caroline Bingley; but now you have to deal with her good side so that you can't hate her. Have fun!"
I don't know if what I wrote previously does made any sense...
I love how Jane Austen, by now an experienced author, subverts the usual tropes in this novel. Although Emma is a romance, it begins with wedding. And although in most novels the heroine(s) are poor and have many reasons to be discontent, Emma (the characters) does not.
A few facts . . . 1. Jane Austen began writing Emma in January 1814, and completed it in March 1815 (when she was 39 years old.) Emma was published at the end of 1815, with 2,000 copies being printed. Only 563 were still unsold after 4 years. She earned less than 40 pounds from the book during her lifetime, though it earned more after her death. Austen died one and a half years after publication.
2. George IV became the Prince Regent in 1811 (after after his father was declared insane.) The Prince Regent did Austen the "favor of allowing her to dedicate Emma to him. In Austen’s short dedication of Emma to the Prince, she used the title “His Royal Highness” three times, which would be an exaggerated deference, a tool of satire. image: http://www.austen.com/emma/dedicate.htm
"What must Jane Austen have felt when James Stanier Clarke, the Mr. Collins-like royal librarian, conveyed to her His Royal Highness’s “permission” to dedicate her next work to him? Could she have done it with a straight face? I think not, or at least if she did, it must have been because she knew that she, and her attentive readers, would eventually have the last laugh. The conventional wisdom is that Austen tried to squirm out of the tribute to the Prince.
Was it “incumbent on [her] to shew her sense of the Honour” by dedicating her forthcoming novel to His Royal Highness? she asked Clarke. “It is certainly not incumbent on you to do so", he responded, but if you wish to do the Regent that honour either now or at any future period, I am happy to send you that permission which need not require any more trouble or solicitation on your Part.” (16 November 1815)
But, of course, things are not always what they seem, or as others try to make them appear. Seeking to establish his good repute, the Prince Regent proclaimed himself “The First Gentleman of Europe.” Interestingly, one of the questions explored in Emma is "what constitutes a true gentleman?" George set the standards of "gentlemanlike" behavior during his time. According to him, fashionable men were dandies – the sort who would ride sixteen miles to London just to get a haircut. Austen surely laughed at the Prince’s self-appointed title, being well aware of his deserved reputation as a gambler, a glutton, a spendthrift, and an adulterer (also reputed to have fathered numerous illegitimate children by a number of women). As the long-running King of the English tabloids, he was ferociously caricatured and skewered throughout his long public career, from the grotesque painting entitled A Voluptuary under the horrors of Digestion, 1792 by James Gillray by permission of the British Museum -- http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia...
3. Austen’s novel also takes up the question of gentlemanly – (and gentlewomanly) behavior – but she comes to very, very different conclusions than the Prince Regent. It might not be a coincidence that Mr. Knightley, the rugged, thoughtful, honest hero of our novel, is also named George. Ironic?!
4. Emma was a departure for Austen because, unlike her other novels, the work focuses on a wealthy and beautiful heroine with no financial concerns or need to marry. The quest for financial security and an appropriate husband is central to her other works and adds a serious element to their narrative structures. “Emma” has a generally lighter tone because it lacks this dramatic conflict. The heroine of the novel is also unique because of her seeming immunity to romantic sensibility. It is only at the end of the work that Emma succumbs to love; before that point, she shows minimal romantic interest in any of the male characters.
Chapter 1"Matrimony, as the origin of change, was always disagreeable."
"It is impossible that Emma should not miss such a companion," said Mr. Knightley. "But she knows how much the marriage is to Miss Taylor's advantage; she knows how very acceptable it must be at Miss Taylor's time of life to be settled in a home of her own, and how important to her to be secure of a comfortable provision, and therefore cannot allow herself to feel so much pain as pleasure. Every friend of Miss Taylor must be glad to have her so happily married."
"And you have forgotten one matter of joy to me," said Emma, "and a very considerable one—that I made the match myself. I made the match, you know, four years ago; and to have it take place, and be proved in the right, when so many people said Mr. Weston would never marry again, may comfort me for any thing."Mr. Knightley shook his head at her. Her father fondly replied, "Ah! my dear, I wish you would not make matches and fortel things, for whatever you say always comes to pass. Pray do not make any more matches."
And so Mrs. Weston (formerly Miss Taylor) leaves Hartfield and moves into a place of social prominence in Highbury; and the dear, perfect gentleman, Mr. Knightley, takes his walks from Donwell Abbey to Hartfield for his daily visit. But Emma tells her father that she has just one more match to make . . the parson, Mr. Elton.
Chapter 2"Such a wonderful thing for poor Miss Taylor. Mr. Weston is a lucky man to have such a wife and such a son."
"Captain Weston, who had been considered, especially by the Churchills, as making such an amazing match, was proved to have much the worst of the bargain; for when his wife died, after a three years' marriage, he was rather a poorer man than at first, and with a child to maintain. From the expense of the child, however, he was soon relieved. The boy had, with the additional softening claim of a lingering illness of his mother's, been the means of a sort of reconciliation; and Mr. and Mrs. Churchill, having no children of their own, nor any other young creature of equal kindred to care for, offered to take the whole charge of the little Frank soon after her decease. He saw his son every year in London, and was proud of him." Is that why he is Frank Churchill and not Frank Weston? I thought that I had read somewhere that it was a common thing to take a close family member as their own child, which was helpful to the family who could not provide?!
In Jane Auste's own family, her brother George was sent to live with a local family at a young age because, as Austen biographer Le Faye describes it, he was mentally abnormal and subject to fits. He may also have been deaf and mute. And her brother, Edward, was adopted by his fourth cousin, Thomas Knight, inheriting Knight's estate and taking his name in 1812.
Chapter 3New characters are introduced. There is the impoverished Mrs. Bates, a widow of a former vicar of Highbury, and largely ignored by Highbury society; her daughter, Miss Bates, neither young, married, handsome or rich and who lacks any distinguishing traits such as intellect or cleverness, yet is generally happy and treats others with great goodwill; Mr. Elton, a local clergyman; Mrs. Goddard, the mistress of the Boarding school for educating girls; and Harriet Smith, a short, plump and fair girl of seventeen, of questionable origin.
Emma has takes it upon herself to improve Harriet, starting with the Martin family. Emma has good intentions toward Harriet and genuinely wishes to help the young lady by introducing her into society and finding her a suitor, but Emma is also condescending. Emma assumes that the Martins are inappropriate friends for Harriet, based on their social status and upbringing. But Mr. Knightley thinks very highly of the family, despite their profession.
The social hierarchy of Highbury society puts the Woodhouses, the Westons and Mr. Knightley at the top, since they own the largest estates. Below in status is Mr. Elton, who is important in Highbury not because of wealth, but because of his position as the vicar. Mrs. Bates, as the widow of the former vicar, also retains some status, though she has little money. The lowest rung of society are single women, such as Harriet Smith and Miss Bates. Miss Bates takes part in social functions because of her mother, but Harriet is only allowed among the better persons of Highbury because of her connection to Emma. Parentage is crucial for determining a character’s social status. Harriet has no knowledge of her parent lineage. Emma assumes that Harriet’s father must be a gentleman, and, because of her own social status, she can determine who is included.
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I will be back to comment shortly!!
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And you are very right about Emma. Often her good and bad side to her nature is shown in the actions she takes - but in the first line Jane Austen basically tells us that Emma is spoilt, given that she has had nothing to vex her for her one and twenty years.
I do believe that Jane Austen did this on purpose for I know she said how she knew people would either love Emma or hate her, which is what she wanted in this heroine. Of course, being the heroine of the story she must have redeemable qualities and likable factors which, as you say, Caroline Bingley is without. She gives Emma a charm - and I love Emma for her faults and silly mistakes - she suffers for them later and so I do not mind. Everyone has faults, so to a lesser or greater extent than others!
@Victoria - Emma is very different to her other novels. She is the only heroine who is rich, well set up and does not need to marry. All her other heroines are of a lower class and marriage is important for their well being and future. It is nice to have a novel where the heroine does not require these things.
@Carol - Thanks for the facts. I find it hilarious how she dedicated Emma, with he most dislikeable heroine, to the Prince Regent who she did not like - I remember I loved hearing that when I first heard it!
And thanks for that quote and all the information - brilliant and really interesting to read more about the dedication to the infamous Prince Regent!
Very good point about George, the Prince Regent vs. George Knightley - the true gentleman! That is very funny and so ironic! That hadn't clicked until you mentioned it!
@Carol - Chapter 1
I love chapter 1 and the way it sets the scene. Mr Knightley is portrayed brilliantly in the first chapter and as a very good friend to the Woodhouses - like Irene said, you are in favour or Mr Knightley from the off! It really starts on the match making theme which appears through the novel having Emma believe Miss Taylor's match was her doing and then planning to marry Elton off!
@Carol - Chapter 2:
Yes, because the Churchill's took Frank as their own he went from being Frank Weston to being Frank Churchill. I do pity his situation as is cannot have been fun being parcelled off to live with relatives after your mother has died...
Interesting point about Jane's own family. So many situations like that and other events in her life are reflected in her books.
It is interesting how there are four young people in this story Emma Frank Jane and Harriet and how their different pasts are all almost compared to Emma's, Emma's past being the best one! (anyway, I digress for we have not got to Jane and Harriet as yet!)
@Carol - Chapter 3
Emma's relationship with Harriet is started with good intentions but as Mr Knightley later remarks, is not a good thing for either of them. She does want to help Harriet but she is very over powering and condescending and controlling, but this is partly because Harriet is such an easy and malleable subject! She is happy to conform to Emma's ways and listen to all she has to say!
The social ranking in Highbury is indeed very interesting and everyone knows where they stand - which is nothing unusual. But Emma does rather 'puff' Harriet up and let her raise her expectations beyond where they should be and this results in a lot of heart break for Harriet, and later too for Emma (again, I am talking of events in the future!)
Their relationship is a very interesting one!
Thank you Soph!! Even though I am just at the beginning of the book, I don't find Emma as annoying, as when I first read it in the past. Maybe it is your perspective that is rubbing off on me?! Anyone who lives on the east coast will be "home-bound" for the next few days. A snowy winter storm with freezing temperatures arrived this morning. It's THREE degrees here!! Hopefully it will all work out.
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Oh dear! Stay warm!!!
Emma is most unlike a Jane Austen heroine.First she is rich which none her other heroines are.Second she is a beauty which only Marianne could be said to be and Third she isn't a reader all the other characters are readers it is stated in the books.But in Emma it says she isn't a reader.It is almost like Austen took all the things her other heroines weren't and gave those qualities to Emma.I agree with Irene she has more of the characteristics of an Austen bad girl like Caroline Bingley and Mary Crawford then an Austen heroine but with a little more likeableness.But unlike them she has Mr.Knightley to lead her right.I do wonder if without Mr.Knightly she would have been a Mary Crawford or Caroline Bingley.He is her moral arrow and if he hadn't been there..What do you all think?Her father thinks her perfect and Miss Taylor thinks she is almost as perfect as her father.Being told that all her life and no one saying she isn't.I think she would have been a horriable person to be around.
Carol this is my 4 reread and I still find Emma annoying and want to shake some sense into her.I remember reading that she dedecated Emma to the Prince Regent but she didn't like him.Form what I have read about him I can't say I like him either.
Emma talks about having known Harriet by sight and had felt an interest in her because of her beauty and then Harriet talks about how she didn't want to disagree with Emma and then the text also says how Harriet was worshipful of Emma in a way.If Harriet didn't have these 3 qualities do you like Emma would have wanted to be friends with her?I don't think so.If she had been beautiful but less worshipful of Emma she wouldn't have thought of her again.Or is she hadn't been beautiful Emma mostly likely wouldn't have invited her.What do you all think?
Nicole, I agree with you. I think that Emma would have been different without Mr. Knightley; he is the only one who sees situations and relationships as they really are and try to guide Emma through life, both trying to protect her and to open her eyes.Emma's friendship with Harriet surely is not an equal one. To answer Nicole question: no, I don't think Emma would have singled her out hadn't she been so worshipful. And I can tell this with certainty, because it's exactly what she did with Jane Fairfax, beautiful and smart but less obliging (but I don't want to spoiler).
Emma is one of my favourite Austen heroins just because she has flaws and she is fallible, so she is far more real (even if less inspiring) than other characters.
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If Emma did not have Mr Knightley to guide her moral compass I think that she would have struggled to become who she does become. I do not think she would have gone completely off the rails, as it were, and head towards being a Caroline Bingley for I believe she has more of a heart and sense of feeling than say Caroline Bingley. She does feel badly about some of her actions, even before Knightley comes along to assure her that what she did was wrong (for example the Miss Bates situation at Box Hill - but again I shall not talk about this now.)
She definitely would not have bothered with Harriet had she not been co complying and worshiping of Emma. You are completely right about Jane Irene. Emma saw Jane as someone whom she should be more like, she as competition for Emma, whereas Harriet was definitely not competition for Emma and was a very innocent girl, willing to listen and follow everything Emma had to say on anything!
CH 4Harriet is a naive, sweet, grateful person, and her only desire was to be guided by anyone she looked up to. Emma, on the other hand, was quite convinced of Harriet Smith’s being exactly the young friend she wanted --- or, exactly the something which her home required.” Basically, Emma needed someone to play with.
Emma made a first attempt, and found nothing about Harriet’s parents. Later Harriet excitedly shared with Emma about her two months of happy times at the Abbey-Mill Farm, with the Martin family. Once again, Emma had a different perspective than Harriet regarding Mr. Martin. Harriet saw him as a respectable man of four and twenty, living on family property with family stock, in time would do quite well. Emma tries to persuade her of his lack of education. The next day, while walking on the road, Mr. Martin appears on foot looking very respectfully at her, which aggravated Emma. He leaves after short discussion, and Harriet states that Mr. Martin was going to Kingston tomorrow to acquire Romance of the Forest. It sounds as though Mr. Martin is trying to please Harriett in reading literature, which distresses Emma.
Emma states, "What is passage in youth, is detestable in later age. Mr. Martin is now awkward and abrupt; what will he be at Mr. Weston’s time of life?” And Harriet replies solemnly, “There is no saying, indeed!” And Emma states, "He will be a completely gross, vulgar farmer--totally inattentive to appearances, and thinking of nothing but profit and loss."
Emma already had planned Mr. Elton for Harriet. "Mr. Elton's situation was most suitable, quite the gentleman himself, and without low connections; at the same time not of any family that could fairly object to the doubtful birth of Harriet.
1. Emma is a "social-snob." She belittles Mr. Martin in Harriet's presence and implies that he is illiterate, with coarse manners. (This is when I dislike her immensely!)
2. Emma wants to be the "matchmaker" regarding Harriet and Mr. Elton. Emma praises Elton as a fine model of a gentleman, yet would he accept Harriet since she is an illegitimate daughter of unknown parents?
CH 5 Major disagreement between Mr. Knightley and Mrs. Weston. He believes Emma will do Harriet no good regarding Harriet's social circle, as well as increasing Emma's conceit. Mrs. Weston disagrees with Mr. Knightley, Emma has begun to read more because of Harriet's reading.
Mrs. Weston tells Mr. Knightley, "You are so much used to live alone, that you do not know the value of a companion. I can imagine your objection to Harriet Smith. She is not the superior young woman which Emma's friend ought to be. But on the other hand, as Emma wants to see her better informed, it will be an inducement to her to read more herself."
Mr. Knightley states; "Emma has been meaning to read more ever since she was twelve years old. I am done with expecting any course of steady reading from Emma. She will never submit to any thing requiring industry and patience, and a subjection of the fancy to the understanding."
Emma is spoiled by being the cleverest of her family. At ten, she was able to answer questions which puzzled her sister at seventeen. Emma was always quick; Isabella was slow. Ever since Emma was twelve, she has been mistress of the house and family. "She inherited her mother's talents, and lost the only person able to cope with her."
Throughout we read, "She (Emma) always declares she will never marry, which, of course, means just nothing at all. But I have no idea that she has yet ever seen a man she cared for. It would not be a bad thing for her to be very much in love with a proper object. <'>I should like to see Emma in love, and in some doubt of a return; it would do her good. But there is nobody hereabouts to attach her; and she goes so seldom from home," states Mr. Knightley.
Well, I would argue that Anne Elliot does not lack for social status, and she is supposed to inherit something, although her father has been foolish.Also, most of Jane Austen's heroines are pretty enough, although not perhaps the most beautiful. The only ones acknowledged to be plain are Charlotte Lucas, Mary Bennet and Mrs. Grant and Anne de Bourgh and Mrs. Clay. I always felt that Charlotte Brontë made Jane Eyre plain partly out of rebellion against the trope that heroines must be beautiful.
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1. I agree that she is very wrong and rude and annoying regarding Mr Martin. Dismissing him and judging and belittling him before she has even met him! Poor Harriet! She is very much a social snob - generally I just laugh at it but her strong reaction to Mr Martin the farmer does irritate me.
2. Emma is very blind regarding Mr Elton and Harriet's unknown parentage - if she had thought about she would have realised he would not think of her with this uncertainty about her background. But Emma had already convinced herself of Harriet's father being a gentleman!
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I have to agree with Knightley in this chapter about the friendship between Emma and Harriet. The first time I read it I knew straight away that is would only bring unhappiness for either one or both of them!
It is interesting hearing more about Emma - it is definitely correct that Emma would have benefited from having her mother around for it sounds as though she would be the only one to keep Emma in check (well and Mr Knightley)
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CH 6-7Mr. Martin leaves for Harriet a marriage proposal in the form of a letter. (I find that so odd?! Was that common during those days?!)
Harriet is excited over a written marriage proposal from Mr. Martin, and visits Emma, who reads the letter. Emma is very surprised by how well Mr. Martin writes. Emma has to tell Harriet that it is a very, good letter. But Emma can't stand that this letter is the work of Mr. Martin so she insists the one of his sister's helped him. Harriet asks for advice, and Emma says, "Ought to refuse him! My dear Harriet, what do you mean? Are you in any doubt as to that?"
Emma crushes her hopes, but the real reason Emma states that "it would have been a severe pang to lose you . . ." Once again, Emma is all about "ME, ME and ME!!" Emma is really good at manipulating Harriet, who is now "low all the evening" and in shock, she states in a sorrowful tone, "I shall never be invited to Abbey-Mill again."
Forgot the portrait.
@Victoria and SophI am not saying her other heroines were not pretty but Emma is beautiful.She is the beauty of the village.Elizabeth was the second prettiest next to Jane,Anne was outshown by Elizabeth,Fanny wasn't even looked at next to Maria,Elinor wasn't said to be beautiful in fact Marianne was the beauty(but that faded a bit after her illness),Catherine looked almost pretty today.I don't count Jane Bennet as a heroine.Only S&S has to heroines IMO.I always loved that JA heroines weren't the most beautiful women in the room or the richest or the most popular.I can connect with them.
I think Charlotte Bronte made Jane plain because she was and she was wanted a heroine that would be loved for mind more then her looks.Charlotte wasn't the beauty of her family if I remember that was her sister Anne.I am a huge Bronte fan and I think they were really very ahead of there time in there views.They don't sugarcoat anything.
Jane Austen wrote what she knew and that's why she is one most amazing writers to ever live(just my opinon).That becomes even more clear the more I read about the regency era.Jane Austen never talked about the ton of London or the season.She didn't have any highly tited people in her books the highest rank talked of is a Viscountess in Persuasion.Because she wasn't part of that life.
@Carol Emma is all about herself that's why I don't like her.Harriet is a sweet girl but not the brightest person and she trusts Emma so much and Emma betrays that trust.
@ParinitaI think it's more Emma thinks highly of herself.Emma Woodhouse's Friend to marry a farmer and not a gentleman.The horror.
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I believe a proposal through a letter was more common back then - It was very difficult to meet with a lady privately and chaperoned (well, I suppose Martin and Harriet shouldn't have had that much trouble as they were a lower class) but I do believe it was common.
Emma is so wrong in this situation - how can she not see Harriet's true feelings!? she is very self centred at this point.
@NicoleD
I also love that her heroines are not the most stunningly beautiful and richest in all the land - it makes them much more connectable/relatable!
She really does stick to what she knows which is why I agree that she is one of the best authors of all time.
@Parinita and Nicole.
"Emma Woodhouse's Friend to marry a farmer and not a gentleman.The horror." Hahaha Nicole but I completely agree.
For Emma, caring about her friend I kind of understood why she would dislike Mr. Martin so much. They didn't have all that civil equality blahblahblah back then and the classes were really prominent. No one really probably told her otherwise and she grew up with that mindset. She thought Harriet would be happier with someone richer and with higher social standing. I don't think Emma is to blame for this mindset, more of the way she was raised/society/whatever you want to call it
@CaroBut Harriet isn't in Emma class.She is in Robert Martin's class.Emma is trying to raise her above who she should be with.No one knows who her mother and father were.Emma thinks her father was a gentleman but she has no clue and I wouldn't have guessed gentleman.She is left at a small school in a small village.You would think if he was a gentleman he would have left her at a better school and in a better place.
Carol wrote: "Chapter 2"her brother George was sent to live with a local family at a young age because, as Austen biographer Le Faye describes it, he was mentally abnormal and subject to fits. He may also have been deaf and mute. .."
Carol, do you know who he went to live with and what became of him? Do you know where I might find out more about him?
Soph wrote: "If Emma did not have Mr Knightley to guide her moral compass I think that she would have struggled to become who she does become. I do not think she would have gone completely off the rails, as it were, and head towards being a Caroline Bingley for I believe she has more of a heart and sense of feeling than say Caroline Bingley.."
I totally agree with you Soph! I am constantly befuddled by the concsensus of anti-Emma feeling on GR. Maybe it's because I am older, but I give her a lot more leeway. She' s very young, 21 IIRC? She lost her mother at an early age, which is a huge thing, even tho in those days it was more common, it still has to affect her. She is extremely patient and kind to her father. I have always thought of her as good-natured, fun-loving and adorable, even if she has a few snobby attitudes and blind spots.
By the way, I'm not actually reading the book now, but I did re-read it for the second time just a few months ago, so I hope it's all right to join in the discussion. Emma is my favorite Austen book (at least it is right now!) and I think it's partly because I can breathe a little easier with a heroine whose decisions don't have to be dictated by the desperation of a need to marry and be taken care of.
Yes, Emmas is a snob about the Martins.But doesn't she get any credit for wanting to elevate Harriet? Isn't it kind of sweet that she's determined Harriet comes from high ranking parents? That she envisions them as friends into the future, and as equals? I don't like her behavior towards poor Robert Martin either, but hey, it's not all that terrible and I must stress, again, that Emma is all of 21.
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I am glad you agree with me - yes the ... (perhaps to strong) but hatred that some people seem to feel for her is surprising, to me anyway!
Please do join in the conversation - the more the merrier whether you are reading it or not :)
I like to have a heroine who's fate does not lie in whether she marries well or not too! :)
I see your point about Martin. She is only 21 and it is sort of nice, if completely ill advised and judged, to elevate her standing in society. I feel for Martin, but I can say that I know that Emma has good intentions behind all of her actions, even if the consequences do not seem good!
Agree again! Emma has a good heart and her intentions are good. ( I'm crouching in the corner waiting for people to refute us!)
Emma does have a good heart, but she is blind about Harriet. Emma's main problem is that she is bored. She is bright, but because of her situation - and also because of her personality, which keeps herself from applying herself as she ought, for example to music or improving her mind through study. She takes the easier route to amuse herself: she imagines nonsense about Harriet's parentage, she wonders about Jane Fairfax (and there she has good reason to be suspicious). On the other hand she is devoted to her father and she is generous. She visits the poor, sends them broth, and is generous to the Bateses (even when Jane refuses).I really like the fact that she is neither all good nor all bad, but a complex character who feels real.
Marcy wrote: "Agree again! Emma has a good heart and her intentions are good. ( I'm crouching in the corner waiting for people to refute us!)"that's what I always thought
that she was trying to help harriet and didn't know any better to treat Mr Martin well
we're all into tolerance and acceptance now but it was different then
You would think losing her mother young would have made her more mature and not less.I am 25 and let me tell you I was not as immature as Emma is at 21.But then Emma has been very sheltered.More then any Austen heroine really.She has never been out of her village.I think if she went to London and had a season she would have seen how unimportant she is and been less snobbish.I mean she is rich but she doesn't have a title and in those days if she had meet any titled people I think she would be a little less snobbish to others and though she was a queen and that is how she acts but in the village she kinda is.I just wish she had meet other people in her life that had more money and title and maybe she wouldn't have thought she was queen of the world.
Nicole D. wrote: "You would think losing her mother young would have made her more mature and not less.I am 25 and let me tell you I was not as immature as Emma is at 21.But then Emma has been very sheltered.More th..."I agree with you Nicole. Emma seems a bit immature because she is so used to having things her way, and she is the lady everyone looks up to in Highbury. But if she were to go to London for a season, you're right, she might realise that's she's not all that important! I really like her though, because for one thing she isn't vain about her appearance even though she's considered a beauty, and for another she always acts with the best intentions in mind. The way she took Harriet up under her wing could have led to disaster, had Harriet not been so sweet-tempered and kind, but Emma thought she was doing her a lot of good, by trying to raise her above her status. She was happy to have found a friend in Harriet, and she thinks she's doing a good deed by trying to match her with Mr. Elton.
Nicole D. wrote: "You would think losing her mother young would have made her more mature and not less.I am 25 and let me tell you I was not as immature as Emma is at 21.But then Emma has been very sheltered.More th..."Nicole, she was too young to be influenced by her mother's death because she had yet to go through all those "horrible" years that define a person to an extent(puberty) :D and she was treated as a queen who can do nothing wrong (by her father as well as by her governess). Basically she was spoiled. As for the years....being 21 is way different than being 25. People can change within months. I bet that you were, like all of us, very different at 21 and 25.
I am not defending Emma (well, not completely). I am speaking from experience when I say that age has little to do with it and a lot to do with how you were brought up and the way life has treated you (be it good or bad)
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I will come and crouch with you!
@Victoria
I agree with you - Emma really does feel real because of all her flaws and everything.
@Nicole D.
I agree with you when you say that had Emma had a season in London she would have realised that she is not as important of the world - she is the Queen of Highbury and having been nowhere else, being Queen of Highbury for her was being Queen of world, having her know no different - so really, as she is praised and spoiled and knows nothing different it is not really her fault.
@Anne
You are right and that is why she does not annoy me as much - she isn't vain about her looks and she always acts with the best intentions.
Nicole D. wrote: "You would think losing her mother young would have made her more mature and not less.I am 25 and let me tell you I was not as immature as Emma is at 21.But then Emma has been very sheltered.More th..."Good point about never having left the village where she's the Big Cheese.
I sense people are coming around, seeing the good qualities of Emma as much as the bad. I'm glad. Now I can admit the bad ones!! (I'm always a rebel!)
Mod
Irene wrote: "I am just at the end of chapter 1, but I think there's already something to talk about. In this chapter the main charaters are introduced: Emma and her father, Mrs. Weston and Mr. Knightley. Beside..."Irene, I agree that there is something to talk about in Chapter 1. While I was reading about Emma boastingly taking credit for bringing about Mrs Weston's marriage and threatening to bring about even more matches, I bristled with a little dislike for her. However, this is a JA novel and her characters are complex so I read on. I think that I felt annoyed with Emma at that point so early in the novel because JA wanted me to as a reader. Emma does indeed have good qualities as well and I was glad to see Mr. Knighlty trying to check her in these silly and arrogant plans.
It was clever of you to notice how JA used the Weston wedding allow the reader to be introduced to the characters in the story.
However, after I completed reading chapter 4 and Emma's meddling with Harriette and the farmer Mr. Martin, I decided that Emma is a dangerous menace to her community. Poor Harriette is not served by Emma's ambition for her. If I understand society at that time and place, family and connections were everything and since Harriette had neither, I think that Mr. Martin would have been a great match for Harriette! I hope that she and Mr. Martin end up together and that Emma's meddling has not ruined it all in the end!
Mod
Soph, it is laughable that such a young woman as Emma, who seems to have never had a beau thinks that she knows anything about marriage and man's general motivations on that subject.I have just read of Harriet's refusal of Mr. Marten and Mr. Knightly's revelation of Elton's musings among men of his intent to marry a young lady of birth and fortune. It seem Elton appreciates a pretty face but is not fool enough to settle for such a low connection when he can do better for himself. I can't wait until this becomes clear to Emma !
Mod
Oh you are so lucky to be reading this for the first time!
